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The Brain Dead Issue that is Pay "Fairness" for Women

JRHawk2003

HB King
Jul 9, 2003
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This is the most made up issue currently going. I am sure there are some cases here and there, but widespread? Most jobs in organizations of any size have job descriptions with pay ranges built in. There are very few cases of this when you have people in the same job with the same level of experience. Another reason I can't support Hillary.

As I said before. I won't vote for a Republican either but I will find a 3rd party candidate.
 
Does Hill propose a solution to this "problem" or is she just pledging to "fight" for it? I would truly be interested in seeing an actual proposal(s) as to what she specifically intends to do about this.

I will add that I am skeptical and the one commercial of hers on the subject that I have seen is pretty misleading in my mind.
 
This is the most made up issue currently going. I am sure there are some cases here and there, but widespread? Most jobs in organizations of any size have job descriptions with pay ranges built in. There are very few cases of this when you have people in the same job with the same level of experience. Another reason I can't support Hillary.

As I said before. I won't vote for a Republican either but I will find a 3rd party candidate.
Agreed, I was seeing a girl that took over a Regional management position and was immediately making more than her male predecessor.

It may happen here and there, but its mostly a made up, BS, issue. Ronda Rousey is the UFC's highest paid fighter for example.
 
The problem is income disparity that is NOT based on merit or other rational measures. That problem is suggested when you see income disparity but disparity alone doesn't mean the disparity is unwarranted.

We see disparity for women, for blacks, for Hispanics, for young workers, for undereducated workers, for workers outside various networks and so on.

Which of those are unjustified? What counts as unjustified?

If you and I are doing an equally good job of emptying the trash bins but I am paid 30% more, how could that disparity be justified?

We might point out that I have a PhD or that I have been on the job for 6 years while you have only been doing it for 2 years. But even if those are true facts, does either of them justify a pay difference?

Most of the arguments here (across sevreral threads) that seek to minimize the pay gap between men and women point to factors that don't seem to matter to job performance any more than a PhD or a long time on the job matter to emptying trash cans. When we "correct" for them and claim the disparity becomes too small to worry about, we are really distorting the truth, not clarifying it.
 
. . .

Which of those are unjustified? What counts as unjustified?

If you and I are doing an equally good job of emptying the trash bins but I am paid 30% more, how could that disparity be justified?

We might point out that I have a PhD or that I have been on the job for 6 years while you have only been doing it for 2 years. But even if those are true facts, does either of them justify a pay difference?

Most of the arguments here (across sevreral threads) that seek to minimize the pay gap between men and women point to factors that don't seem to matter to job performance any more than a PhD or a long time on the job matter to emptying trash cans. When we "correct" for them and claim the disparity becomes too small to worry about, we are really distorting the truth, not clarifying it.

LMO seniority is a justiafiable pay disparity factor because: 1. longtime employees are reliability 2. longtime employee develop proficiancy at their job 3. it encourages employees to stay on the job thus employers avoid the disruption of excessive employee turnover and the costs of training new employees 4. it's also good for company morale.
 
LMO seniority is a justiafiable pay disparity factor because: 1. longtime employees are reliability 2. longtime employee develop proficiancy at their job 3. it encourages employees to stay on the job thus employers avoid the disruption of excessive employee turnover and the costs of training new employees 4. it's also good for company morale.

Seniority is the ONLY factor that unions want considered. Not performance. Not productivity. Not attendance. Not education or special certifications.
 
I hate it.

If the govt wants to do anything, they should ban companies from restricting the sharing of salary information between employees. Employees will be able to negotiate pay much more efficiently if they have access to relevant information such as what their coworkers are earning. I think Obama did this by executive order for private contractors with federal contracts.
 
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I hate it.

If the govt wants to do anything, they should ban companies from restricting the sharing of salary information between employees. Employees will be able to negotiate pay much more efficiently if they have access to relevant information such as what their coworkers are earning. I think Obama did this by executive order for private contractors with federal contracts.

Believe it or not, that's already illegal under the National Labor Relations Act.
 
The problem is income disparity that is NOT based on merit or other rational measures. That problem is suggested when you see income disparity but disparity alone doesn't mean the disparity is unwarranted.

We see disparity for women, for blacks, for Hispanics, for young workers, for undereducated workers, for workers outside various networks and so on.

Which of those are unjustified? What counts as unjustified?

If you and I are doing an equally good job of emptying the trash bins but I am paid 30% more, how could that disparity be justified?

We might point out that I have a PhD or that I have been on the job for 6 years while you have only been doing it for 2 years. But even if those are true facts, does either of them justify a pay difference?

Most of the arguments here (across sevreral threads) that seek to minimize the pay gap between men and women point to factors that don't seem to matter to job performance any more than a PhD or a long time on the job matter to emptying trash cans. When we "correct" for them and claim the disparity becomes too small to worry about, we are really distorting the truth, not clarifying it.
This equal pay thing is a myth and here is an intelligent woman who explains why...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/
 
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We've already had very in depth discussions about this and this was the conclusion: Even when all lifestyle choices are factored in, there is still a 5-9 cent gap. Maybe you don't think each woman losing out on hundred of thousands of dollars over the course of her lifetime is no big deal, but I'm willing to bet that women would disagree.
 
We've already had very in depth discussions about this and this was the conclusion: Even when all lifestyle choices are factored in, there is still a 5-9 cent gap. Maybe you don't think each woman losing out on hundred of thousands of dollars over the course of her lifetime is no big deal, but I'm willing to bet that women would disagree.

No there's not, Huey. You might want to re-read the other thread. No where can you provide evidence that gender, and ONLY GENDER, is the reason for a mythical pay gap.
 
No there's not, Huey. You might want to re-read the other thread. No where can you provide evidence that gender, and ONLY GENDER, is the reason for a mythical pay gap.
Well what else explains it? Even in the other thread, the links posted by those who call it a myth still admit that there is a gap and that it can't be explained by lifestyle choices. Gender appears to be the only difference.
 
Once you get down to 5 percent, you're in "margin of error" territory.
If practically every study ever done over the matter finds at least a 5-9 percent gap, that suggests that it's not an error. Quite the opposite. It suggests it's correct.
 
If practically every study ever done over the matter finds at least a 5-9 percent gap, that suggests that it's not an error. Quite the opposite. It suggests it's correct.
Look. I agree with you quite a bit on here, but you are just not right here. This is being made out to be some large scale discriminatory practice towards women and it just isn't the case. Intelligent women will tell you the same thing. When women are telling you it's a myth, it's a myth. There are legitimate reasons that have been pointed out over and over about what makes this a falsehood. Hillary is giving me a big reason not to vote for her, and it starts with I am not that stupid to believe what she's selling.

Let it go, because you aren't correct on this one.
 
If practically every study ever done over the matter finds at least a 5-9 percent gap, that suggests that it's not an error. Quite the opposite. It suggests it's correct.

No, the studies said 77 cents, then it was 84 cents, then it was 91 - 95 cents.... you see where this is going?
 
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The other thing is the statistic that women make 80 cents on the dollar or whatever is also misleading or a downright lie. The people who say this are banking on the stupidity of Americans. Both sides do this. On this issue, the Democrats are. They want you to believe that for every job, when a man gets hired for 100,000, a woman gets hired for 80,000. It just isn't the case. Not anymore.
 
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Look. I agree with you quite a bit on here, but you are just not right here. This is being made out to be some large scale discriminatory practice towards women and it just isn't the case. Intelligent women will tell you the same thing. When women are telling you it's a myth, it's a myth. There are legitimate reasons that have been pointed out over and over about what makes this a falsehood. Hillary is giving me a big reason not to vote for her, and it starts with I am not that stupid to believe what she's selling.

Let it go, because you aren't correct on this one.
There is a large enough gap to cause a loss of over a hundred thousand dollars over a lifetime and I'm incorrect with this one? Not sure I buy that. If nearly every study confirms that there is a gap that cannot be explained beyond gender, then I think I'll trust the experts that this is a problem.
 
Well what else explains it? Even in the other thread, the links posted by those who call it a myth still admit that there is a gap and that it can't be explained by lifestyle choices. Gender appears to be the only difference.

Wrong again. The one study conducted found a 6% gap that you latched on to, but it was riddled with inappropriate comparisons such as comparing the pay of professional male athletes to female librarians. That is not two people doing the same work with Gender being the only variable.

Again, find me a study where the only variable is gender and let me know what they mythical pay gap is.
 
There is a large enough gap to cause a loss of over a hundred thousand dollars over a lifetime and I'm incorrect with this one? Not sure I buy that. If nearly every study confirms that there is a gap that cannot be explained beyond gender, then I think I'll trust the experts that this is a problem.
Yes you are...you are buying into bullcrap. You're smarter than this.
 
No, the studies said 77 cents, then it was 84 cents, then it was 91 - 95 cents.... you see where this is going?
Actually, not I can't. Because those studies freely admit to not factoring in lifestyle choices. The 5-9 cents gap studies do. Unless you can proof that all of these studies are wrong, then you have no choice but to accept their findings.
 
Yes you are...you are buying into bullcrap. You're smarter than this.
Excuse me, but what bullcrap? Nearly every study shows that their is a gap likely due to gender. Which means that the simple fact of these women having vaginas is causing them to lose out on thousands of dollars a year. Why isn't this something to be concerned about?
 
This equal pay thing is a myth and here is an intelligent woman who explains why...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/
While she starts with a couple of valid points, she then just ladles out nonsense without supporting data. She takes it as reasonable that men should be paid more for working some harder physical labor jobs she lists, for example. I'm sure the several dubious assumptions there are obvious.
 
Excuse me, but what bullcrap? Nearly every study shows that their is a gap likely due to gender. Which means that the simple fact of these women having vaginas is causing them to lose out on thousands of dollars a year. Why isn't this something to be concerned about?

It's possible, if not likely, that "5% - 9%" gap may just be women failing to take advantage of the equal pay laws already on the books. It's reasonable to assume that not all employment discrimination results in litigation or is even known by the effected employees.
 
LMO seniority is a justiafiable pay disparity factor because: 1. longtime employees are reliability 2. longtime employee develop proficiancy at their job 3. it encourages employees to stay on the job thus employers avoid the disruption of excessive employee turnover and the costs of training new employees 4. it's also good for company morale.
Reasonable considerations. How would you quantify that?
 
Reasonable considerations. How would you quantify that?

I don't know. For some jobs seniority is a huge pay factor. Other employers that want to fill low skill positions may want a steady supply of young cheap labor. For these employers seniority may be a negative. [I've know a lot of people that were let loose from a job because they'd been there too long and made too much money] I'd say seniority is a variable factor that can't be quantified - at least for employment discrimination laws.
 
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Does Hill propose a solution to this "problem" or is she just pledging to "fight" for it? I would truly be interested in seeing an actual proposal(s) as to what she specifically intends to do about this.

I will add that I am skeptical and the one commercial of hers on the subject that I have seen is pretty misleading in my mind.
Solutions do not make as good campaign issues.
 
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While she starts with a couple of valid points, she then just ladles out nonsense without supporting data. She takes it as reasonable that men should be paid more for working some harder physical labor jobs she lists, for example. I'm sure the several dubious assumptions there are obvious.
And that isn't reasonable? She is spot on. Women aren't beating down the company doors to do some of the jobs that men are willing to do. It's not just rabble. It's a fact.
 
Excuse me, but what bullcrap? Nearly every study shows that their is a gap likely due to gender. Which means that the simple fact of these women having vaginas is causing them to lose out on thousands of dollars a year. Why isn't this something to be concerned about?
No they aren't. You fell for it.
 
I don't know. For some jobs seniority is a huge pay factor. Other employers that want to fill low skill positions may want a steady supply of young cheap labor. For these employers seniority may be a negative. [I've know a lot of people that were let loose from a job because they'd been there too long and made too much money] I'd say seniority is a variable factor that can't be quantified - at least for employment discrimination laws.

That last bit sort of makes a point I was trying to raise. If employers are letting people go because they are making too much and they want to bring in less experienced people they can pay less, that suggests that at least for those positions, longevity pay isn't warranted. Won't be true for all jobs, of course, but I suspect it's true for a lot more jobs than we think it is.

It's sort of a catch-22. We convince people that time in service is a reasonable basis for continuing raises, so they expect those raises. But if the 6-week guy and the 15-year guy are each producing 30 widgets a day, how can you justify much pay disparity?

For most jobs, there's a learning curve and it makes sense that someone at the beginning of that curve would get paid less. A century or 2 ago, apprenticeships were served in occupations that had a steep learning curve.

Today, a lot of jobs have a probationary period where the pay is less and it's easier to get rid of an employee. But at some point - and I suspect it's often earlier than we might think - the job is learned. Get a raise. At some further point, reliability has been demonstrated. Get another raise. Beyond that - for most workers in most jobs - what's the reason for additional raises? The occasional star gets promoted out of the comparison pool. Do those who settle in and do the same good job, year after year, deserve raise after raise?

To bring it back to the women thing, if it takes a year to master a job and we are talking about a man and a woman who do the job equally well but the woman at some point took off a few years to raise kids, does that really justify a wage disparity? I don't think so, in most cases. Which is why I referred to such disparities as entitlements. We have been conditioned to believe we deserve continuing raises for longevity, but do we really?
 
There is a large enough gap to cause a loss of over a hundred thousand dollars over a lifetime and I'm incorrect with this one? Not sure I buy that. If nearly every study confirms that there is a gap that cannot be explained beyond gender, then I think I'll trust the experts that this is a problem.
You say that like there have been a lot of studies that factor in all the variables. From my research into this, I don't think that is the case. In fact what I recall is there are only about a hand full of stuties on this in recent history and those point to a gender gap in favor of females when all other factors are controlled.
 
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