This might be a little tougher than Putin thought...
- Thread starter Nole Lou
- Start date
If those are distances shown in red, who's supplying them with missiles/drones with that kind of range?
I read somewhere that Ukraine has become one of if not the major manufacturers of drones in the world. Iran being another surprising top producer of drones. So I suppose they could be making their own long-range, well armed drones. But it seems improbable.
With Republicans stalling our funding and arms to Ukraine, I wonder if these are just the US using S.Korea as an intermediary. We give funds to S.Korea, they ship stuff to Ukraine.
It's obvious that Biden keeps finding work-arounds to keep a trickle of help heading to Ukraine. It wouldn't surprise me if this is in that category.
This Nordski is proud of their willingness to contribute. Not exactly light weights. They sabotaged Germany during the 2nd WW
Suppose Norway, or France does put troops on the ground.
Then suppose Russia hits back in Norway or France.
Does the fact that they voluntarily went to war against Russia change our obligation to come to their aid per NATO terms?
Suppose we invade Mexico and Mexico fights back. Does Norway have to come to our aid?
If they are doing logistical work and training, how can that be "Declaring war". Absolutely article 5 of NATO should be invoked if they are attacked. Russia has brought this upon themselves.
Mexico attacking us? GTFO
It’s time to get serious and make it clear the US and West European countries will ween themselves and force all their businesses to ween themselves off of Chinese manufacturing goods so fast and so abrupt their entire country will crumble. Choose wisely China.
I wasn't asking for a logical or moral argument. Just what the treaty says.
The question is whether one NATO country can provoke a non-NATO country into attacking them and still expect everybody to help them.
I understand, but by that logic, we have already "provoked" Russia by supplying arms.
If they start taking out NATO troops that is another thing.
NATO sees it in their best interest to support Ukraine in an unneeded invasion of Ukraine. The aggressors are the Russians. NATO was designed to prevent or stop a WWIII.
Article 6
“For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
- on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America
Ukraine was known for its science and engineering when it was part of the USSR. They are very capable and clever which Russia is being reminded of to their detriment. They have converted huge old surface to air missiles into surface to surface missiles in addition to developing and modifying long range drones.
You think our government has that kind of power over corporations? We can't even get them to shift to renewable energy or refrain from war and pandemic profiteering. And, sadly, China knows that full well.
Not to mention that that would almost certainly trigger a global depression.
"Seven weeks after Czech defense policy chief Jan Jires announced his government had identified 800,000—later, a million—artillery shells that Ukraine’s allies could buy for Ukraine, Estonian defense minister Hanno Pevkur said his own government had found another million shells and rockets for Ukraine."
“If we combine these one million shells, the Czechs' potential purchases, our buying capabilities and also the British”—who reportedly are organizing their own ammo-for-Ukraine initiative—“I dare say that it would be possible to send Ukraine two-to-2.5 million shells this year, if the funding were available,” Pevkur said.
With 2.5 million additional shells and rockets through the end of the year, the Ukrainians could match Russia’s own ammo supply, Pevkur claimed. It would be the first time in a year that the Ukrainians could fire as many shells and rockets as the Russians could fire.
Exactly where Estonia might source the shells and rockets, Pevkur wouldn’t specify. “Mainly from non-European countries,” he said, “but there are also some in Europe. Unfortunately, I cannot specify. In many cases, the seller themselves does not wish it to be known.”
Pevkur said the shells include NATO-standard 155-millimeter rounds as well as Soviet-standard 152-millimeter rounds and Grad rockets, implying the Estonians are, in part, looking to countries in Eastern Europe and the Balkans. African countries might also be candidates. The Czech initiative reportedly sourced ammo from South Korea, South Africa and Turkey."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davida...r-million-shells-for-ukraine/?sh=5f35078c5ba1
“If we combine these one million shells, the Czechs' potential purchases, our buying capabilities and also the British”—who reportedly are organizing their own ammo-for-Ukraine initiative—“I dare say that it would be possible to send Ukraine two-to-2.5 million shells this year, if the funding were available,” Pevkur said.
With 2.5 million additional shells and rockets through the end of the year, the Ukrainians could match Russia’s own ammo supply, Pevkur claimed. It would be the first time in a year that the Ukrainians could fire as many shells and rockets as the Russians could fire.
Exactly where Estonia might source the shells and rockets, Pevkur wouldn’t specify. “Mainly from non-European countries,” he said, “but there are also some in Europe. Unfortunately, I cannot specify. In many cases, the seller themselves does not wish it to be known.”
Pevkur said the shells include NATO-standard 155-millimeter rounds as well as Soviet-standard 152-millimeter rounds and Grad rockets, implying the Estonians are, in part, looking to countries in Eastern Europe and the Balkans. African countries might also be candidates. The Czech initiative reportedly sourced ammo from South Korea, South Africa and Turkey."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davida...r-million-shells-for-ukraine/?sh=5f35078c5ba1
Good news if real and if it actually happens soon.
"While part of the #Russie has its feet in water following the destruction of 2 dams (without there having been any bombing), in the Volgograd region, there is a fire in the village from Krasnoslobodsk"
I am old enough to remember how things were in the 70s-80s before big corporate pressure got US and others to be ok with allowing China as a WTO partner so they could out source manufacturing for cheaper labor and low (no) regulatory prices.
The US continues to tighten sanctions. That is a non stop battle. Apply pressure here, and the profits will tempt others somewhere else. However, it does appear that the threat of banking sanctions is producing real results in the energy sector as payments to Russia slow. It's almost like they are selling on credit at this point, and even India is slowing payments.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-abandoned-allies-us-sanctions-1886465
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-abandoned-allies-us-sanctions-1886465
That would require a very deep dive. Maybe we will have the “guts” to do that, but it requires sacrifice and serious reform.
I was pretty involved in lumber and wood products production even as corporate folks were pushing production overseas in the chase for profit during the late ‘90s.
I was hired to produce analysis that unfortunately suggested that more profitability would follow shuttering of domestic production in a shift to overseas factories. Those profits were long ago and are of no benefit to the communities in which production once occurred.
There was a huge hollowing out of production folks, supply companies, support companies, etc… It gutted communities and forced many into poverty.
To now restart production, you have to deal with loss of institutional memory. From whom do we source material, production equipment, parts, logistics, funding.? Can we find enough capable and willing partners?
Sure, big money can shake the trees and find partners, but it won’t be cheap.
Great post. What you say is so true and a threat across the nation. We simply can’t ramp up industrial production like we use to, for example like how we had to in WWII. It has weakened us as a nation. Makes you wonder as far as if a long game is in play…
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Your last sentence is very telling. US and international corps basically play the “short term profit game”, expecting to either cash in now, or at least be out of the game before the consequences affect the bottom line. The short play that *** s on communities for quick gain without regard to future consequence. They give, as brother says, no **cks about the impacts.
Asian and Mid Eastern countries more closely control “production and planning” decisions, which more often reflect the long play.
They also don’t give a fat rat’s ass about consequences to the lesser citizens, but they are often ahead in predicting negative consequences of short term plays.
That's partly why the spending on Ukraine is such a big deal. 80-90% of that money is being spent here in the USA on defense sector manufacturing jobs, starting up supply lines, building new factories, supporting new manufacturers and contractors entering the industry. We've all read the stories. New artillery plants. New Stinger missile production lines. High paying jobs. All solid investments in rebuilding the American manufacturing base that withered under outsourcing to China over the last 30 years. All being blocked by the House GOP, Johnson, at the demand of Trump.
Gotta build back capacity. Why does Joe Working Man think that the drump will push for American production and therefore economic growth amongst all?
drump will do all but that…
A huge uptick in vehicle losses over the past few days
More affirmation that Russia can only win by dragging this out until November.
I sincerely believe Russia withdraws when Trump loses.
I sincerely believe Russia withdraws when Trump loses.
They aren't going anywhere. I'll bet you $50. They have enough cannon fodder for years. They are psychotic and deranged.
I would take that bet.
Winner picks loser’s avatar for the next year.
Now, it’s a parlay, so if Trump wins, no bet, but if Trump loses, when would you expect Putin to fold his hand a withdraw (and withdraw from which place(s))?
I would like to think Western Europe would not stand for this. Especially since they know how little trump cares what happens to them.
