This might be a little tougher than Putin thought...
- Thread starter Nole Lou
- Start date
Strategically they are in an important place, hard to dispute that. But at the same time why should they even be involved if they don't align with our goals.
I mean what is to say they even uphold their article 5 obligations if it comes to that?
They supported Article 5 when it was invoked after 9/11.
Not sure they would now with Erdogan in charge...
The second part is the problem. We don't know where they stand and therefore we can't trust them.
I mean there is no other NATO member that we have these kinds of questions about. But Erdogan . . . if we had to use Article V against Putin how do we know he'd help and do we realistically even know that he wouldn't turn on us and help Putin?
A Turkey we could count on is a massive strategic ally. But if you can't count on them what's the point?
Kicking them out of NATO would ensure that scenario. Kicking them out would place them firmly in the Russia/China camp.
If having them in becomes untenable then they might need to be kicked out.
Maybe but at the same time I am concerned about keeping them in while they potentially block two strategically important allies. . . one of whom likely equals their strategic importance or comes close that we can in fact count on.
Like if they are going to block Finland I say kick them out. Finland is just as strategically important as they are in the general sense and if Article V had to be used we could count on Finland.
Erdogan views himself, and Turkey as more of a power broker than Russia.
It does suck that two members of NATO are led by autocrats.
It is horrifying to see Russia target civilians, but their terror campaign signifies they cannot take out hard targets. While they blow up a shopping mall, arms are pouring across the Polish and Romanian borders.
This isn't really directed at you, I am only replying to you because you seem pretty knowledgeable. Why can't we just form a new organization called the No Autocracy Treaty Organization, with the acronym, "NATO+", and admit Ukraine and everyone else deemed a friend to democracy and foe to autocracy. NATO could then run joint exercises with NATO+, and NATO+ would not be constrained by the tyranny of the minority.
- Ukraine's army says it defeated an "elite" unit of Russian soldiers.
- The Ukrainian army's 80th assault brigade said Russian soldiers retreated in defeat, "leaving in the forest the bodies of the dead."
- The Ukrainians said they fought for more than 14 hours before pulling off a "mass artillery strike."
Of course.
Gotta turn a profit....can't be doing things for ethical/humanitarian reasons...
The United Kingdom will provide
Ukraine with drone detection radars for defense purposes The supply of these radars is part of military-technical assistance.
Modified RPG
, I've seen them with all kinds of dressings to increase their damage, like glass and metal balls in the style of a Claymore Mine..
Modified RPG
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Morbid question. With all of these dead Russians being left behind, or worse, executed Ukrainians, will the wolves, bears, packs of dogs, and such in Ukraine develop a taste for human flesh?
I'd argue Turkey inhabits a more strategically important location. I want Finland in as well.
From my viewpoint something like that would put Hungary (not much of a loss) and Turkey (much bigger loss) into the "autocrat" camp. Even with the headaches they provide it's better, overall, to have them in than out. While Hungary isn't supplying any military aid (not much of a loss IMO) they haven't really inhibited the NATO response. Same kind of goes for Turkey even they're more problematic.
Right now NATO is able to support Ukraine effectively even though Hungary/Turkey aren't participating. If they were out they'd be much more problematic.
If it gets to the point where their membership becomes untenable well then they have to go....
It's looking like we're entering a quasi "cold war" and don't need to be shoving countries fully into the Russia/China sphere. Especially Turkey. Hungary would be left hanging in the middle of a bunch of NATO countries if Ukraine gains membership. Untenable position which I'd think Orban for all his bluster would want to avoid.
Geo politics is complicated. I think we have to consider the long game which we've never been very good at.
Is the goal of the NATO alliance to deter attacks on members, or something else?
Article 5 has been invoked once, and all members agreed. So, history is to say.
I sense a new horror film series being created.
There was a video a couple of weeks ago or so of a dog running around with a human hand in its mouth😟
There are unwritten goals about the preservation of democracy in there.
But even if the goal is just to deter attacks, do you feel confident that modern day Turkey would live up to it's Article V obligations against Putin? Because if the answer is no, then they shouldn't be a part of the alliance . . . especially if they are potentially blocking out strategically important allies who we are confident that can be counted on.
Do you envision NATO+ just does whatever the US says, or do members have a say as in NATO?
Would NATO+ make decisions unanimously, mere majority, super majority?
Would 1.3 million Estonians have the same decision making weight as 330 million Americans?
No I think he specifically said being a friend to democracy. Being a friend to democracy doesn't mean you just roll over and accept what the US wants.
So…
Would NATO+ make decisions unanimously, mere majority, super majority?
Would 1.3 million Estonians have the same decision making weight as 330 million Americans?
NATO needs to explore ways to squeeze Turkey even further. At the same time, individual NATO members can tighten their military relationships with Sweden and Finland anyway.
This Erdogan stunt needs to be shown to backfire on him.
Ukraine became a Nato enhanced opportunity member in 2020 and a US Joint partner in September 2021. They don't want the US to influence politicians or be involved militarily, whether a democracy or not. The 2014 conflict started when the elected pro-russian guy got kicked out of the country. The people in the Donbas and Crimea, mostly Russians, were very much against this turn of events.
They weren't led by Edrogan then. The two problems with Hungary and Turkey are their autocratic leaders.
Vladimir Putin's forces have been dealt a further blow after another top Russian military figure was killed in Ukraine, according to Kyiv.
Col. Ruslan Shirin, who was chief of staff for the Baltic Fleet's 336th Naval Infantry Brigade was killed in action, according to Ukrainian armed forces officer Anatoliy Stefan and other social media posts.
Stefan tweeted that Shirin "has been officially denazified and demilitarized," without specifying where or how he died. The news was also tweeted by military analyst Rob Lee.
https://www.newsweek.com/ruslan-shirin-russia-ukraine-general-death-vladimir-putin-1713869
Fighter MTR "Azov" from the German machine gun MG-3 disposes of Russian Nazis
Col. Ruslan Shirin, who was chief of staff for the Baltic Fleet's 336th Naval Infantry Brigade was killed in action, according to Ukrainian armed forces officer Anatoliy Stefan and other social media posts.
Stefan tweeted that Shirin "has been officially denazified and demilitarized," without specifying where or how he died. The news was also tweeted by military analyst Rob Lee.
https://www.newsweek.com/ruslan-shirin-russia-ukraine-general-death-vladimir-putin-1713869
Fighter MTR "Azov" from the German machine gun MG-3 disposes of Russian Nazis
Still doesn’t justify Russia’s actions in 2014 or 2022. Russia was not attacked or threatened with attack.
I’m sure the wonderful people of the Donbas are thinking how much better life is now that Russian stooges are running their lives like Somali warlords.
True. Still think they're a country we'd rather have in than out even with the headaches.
Turkey and Russia have have not been historical allies. If Turkey wants to be strategically aligned with Russia then I hope they enjoy that.
(Looks like this is NW of Kyiv.)
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