Tom needs to control the Iowa Bench

[MSU158]

Why do you need "toe turn" in there? What does it matter what part of the body is used to twist the knee? What are you expecting? That the rules need to specify not twisting the knee with the shin, ankle, arch of the of foot, ball of the foot, and toes? If it is twisting the knee, it is a twisting knee lock.

But, it has to be a clear and obvious hold directly causing the twisting knee. To me, that move is not a clear and obvious move that directly causes the twisting knee.

Now, I can definitely see it being called that way. But, I can’t say for certain that it should have been.

 

[HoundedHawk]

But, it has to be a clear and obvious hold directly causing the twisting knee. To me, that move is not a clear and obvious move that directly causes the twisting knee.

Now, I can definitely see it being called that way. But, I can’t say for certain that it should have been.

I'm not trying to insult you at all, but understanding the physical principle of a lever, and that a torque is a force through a radius, the pulling up and out with the toes was immediately seen by me as fundamentally a torque on the knee because the tibia would rotate. I would encourage you to look at it from that point of view.

For the sake of argument, imagine ADS's foot was 3' long. What would happen if you pulled up on the toe? RBY's move was so quick and short lived the ref couldn't stop it. But I wish he would have realized that when RBY methodically pulled that foot out at a 90 degrees, there was no other reason for that, but that it was going to pulled up and out. There is no other reason to do it.

 

[MSU158]

I'm not trying to insult you at all, but understanding the physical principle of a lever, and that a torque is a force through a radius, the pulling up and out with the toes was immediately seen by me as fundamentally a torque on the knee because the tibia would rotate. I would encourage you to look at it from that point of view.

For the sake of argument, imagine ADS's foot was 3' long. What would happen if you pulled up on the toe? RBY's move was so quick and short lived the ref couldn't stop it. But I wish he would have realized that when RBY methodically pulled that foot out at a 90 degrees, there was no other reason for that, but that it was going to pulled up and out. There is no other reason to do it.

No need to preface your point. I get what you are saying and why you feel the way you do. I just don’t see it as cut and dry as you do.

As far as the reason to do it. It was also for added leverage. It was not just to torque the knee. The torquing DID result and I can definitely see your stance. But, to say pulling the foot out is solely to torque the knee is wrong.

Now, with that said, I definitely lean towards it being illegal. But, I would bet most refs don’t see it the way you do. At least not a clearly as you are making it to be.

 

[HoundedHawk]

No need to preface your point. I get what you are saying and why you feel the way you do. I just don’t see it as cut and dry as you do.

As far as the reason to do it. It was also for added leverage. It was not just to torque the knee. The torquing DID result and I can definitely see your stance. But, to say pulling the foot out is solely to torque the knee is wrong.

Now, with that said, I definitely lean towards it being illegal. But, I would bet most refs don’t see it the way you do. At least not a clearly as you are making it to be.

The bolded part is where I really think you're wrong. There is no other reason to methodically change the angle of the foot. Imagine if the top wrestler pulled the foot out at 90 degree constantly, but never did anything with it. You would think him insane. He might as well be obsessed with scooping the opponents hair the other direction.

If one wants to merely pull the leg out to get a creadle, you just grab the ankle and the calf, pull out, and it will come. No harm. To purposely turn the foot so you can pick up with the toes as a lever to lift & twist the tibia (thus necessarily twisting the knee) can only be wrong. There is no other reason for it.

 

[texas twister]

I’m 100% ok if we lose a match because a team point was deducted for a coach defending an athlete. That’s their job.

There is a difference between "defending your athlete" and "going overly, irrational, out of control nuts". Going bananas won't improve getting the referee to scrutinize better. Why didn't he just throw the brick and have them look for an illegal move?

 

[lookleft goright]

Art - totally agree on Tom’s comments. I am a fan of Tom and have gotten to know him fairly well through the years. But that doesn’t mean I agree with everything he says and does. I saw no point for his comments on ADS. Should have left it at “he felt something and we don’t know the extent.” I understand what he was trying to convey but it is now being construed (by some) as ADS “broke” because he was cradled which I know Tom wasn’t intending to convey. We have all been there and it is scary when something “pops” and not knowing WTH. I think (hope and assume) Coach was meaning to say that had ADS had something in the similar in the past maybe he would have realized it wasn’t as serious as his mind was telling him it was in the moment.

I do not think it is Brand's responsibility to figure out how people (the arm chair warriors that we are) are going to construe his comments. He is straight shooter and up front. Sometimes he may say something that may be slightly embarrassing to a kid, but- if it is true, then it is up to the kid to take accountability and improve. TnT preach that and it is a good approach.

He did not say Desanto was mentally weak, he said "if they could have calmed him down, he may have been able to continue" or something along those lines. It is right after a huge meet and people are criticizing his honest and straight forward answers to the press? Seems crazy. The team point deduction is on them and there will probably be more of them in their future. You can't change the spots on a leopard or is it the stripes on a tiger or maybe the feathers on a hawk?

 

[lookleft goright]

The bolded part is where I really think you're wrong. There is no other reason to methodically change the angle of the foot. Imagine if the top wrestler pulled the foot out at 90 degree constantly, but never did anything with it. You would think him insane. He might as well be obsessed with scooping the opponents hair the other direction.

If one wants to merely pull the leg out to get a creadle, you just grab the ankle and the calf, pull out, and it will come. No harm. To purposely turn the foot so you can pick up with the toes as a lever to lift & twist the tibia (thus necessarily twisting the knee) can only be wrong. There is no other reason for it.

If Desanto was not sitting on the knee, it would have come out and he would not have tore it up. The fact that Desanto was sitting on it made it dangerous to him. I cannot say whether RBY was trying to cheap shot Desanto or hurt him intentionally. I will say that he got to the near side cradle quickly and effectively. Sometimes that is great technique and sometimes is it illegal technique. I can't say which. Lets hope Desanto is ok and ready to go next week.

 

[dhm47]

OTOH
There was nothing the ref could do to stop that. It wasn’t like a PD situation that he let go too far; RBY just reached down and yanked the leg in a split second - and to his credit the official stopped it immediately.

If anything, Brands completely threw ADS under the bus after the meet. I don’t know what it accomplishes to tell the world your guy is mentally weak.

Honestly, I didn't understand that either

 

[TDJ7]

TnT grew up 4 houses down from my Grandparents, Dad & Uncles when they were growing up. Watching the duel last night my Grandma says "Those boys sure have settled down since they were younger"

csb

 

[hawkman37]

Manning gets 3 bench warnings and walks on the mat 20x ... twice all the way to the score table... no points taken. Athlete screaming in pain, Tom takes a step on mat before official has injury time called ... team point

 

[MVPFAN]

The bolded part is where I really think you're wrong. There is no other reason to methodically change the angle of the foot. Imagine if the top wrestler pulled the foot out at 90 degree constantly, but never did anything with it. You would think him insane. He might as well be obsessed with scooping the opponents hair the other direction.

If one wants to merely pull the leg out to get a creadle, you just grab the ankle and the calf, pull out, and it will come. No harm. To purposely turn the foot so you can pick up with the toes as a lever to lift & twist the tibia (thus necessarily twisting the knee) can only be wrong. There is no other reason for it.

IMO he was shown exactly what to do there. Karma coming back his way.

 

[Gobblin]

Tell us more..........someone please!

Who sits near Gable and heard it? Go ahead and make it "safe for work" if you have to.

It was for no stall calls on Joseph. It was criminal.

 

[dtripp26]

TnT grew up 4 houses down from my Grandparents, Dad & Uncles when they were growing up. Watching the duel last night my Grandma says "Those boys sure have settled down since they were younger"

csb

Hey former neighbor...well guess I was your family's neighbor.

 

[hawkaeg80]

College refs seem to be very thin-skinned. God forbid having a coach in your ear. Can you imagine if refs had the power to take away points because a coach was arguing about this, that, or another in football or basketball? Geesh.

 

[Chuck C]

Tom takes a step on mat before official has injury time called ... team point

I don’t think that’s what the deduction was for. The coaches and trainers were already on the mat, Terry turned to the head ref that was about ten feet away and yelled something at him. The head ref immediately walked to the head table and deducted a point.

 

[OpenWater]

If Terry was chewing out the refs because RBY may have pulled an illegal move, then I don’t know why anyone is upset. As an athlete, I want a coach that has my back. That’s all Terry was doing.

That was my first thought, that Terry was fighting for his guy. Got to do it tactfully, though. Yup, it's Iowa - PSU, but in the end, it is college sports.