Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget

[Urohawk]

Almost 95% of all private school graduates go on to either a 2 year or 4 year college, public schools struggle to get 45% into college. The outcome clearly indicates that kids going to private schools have better outcomes.

Not every kid should go to college. Private schools can pick and choose who you accept. If I roll up to Dowling to enroll a kid with cerebral palsy, do you think they are going to have an aid to attend to a child's physical needs in a wheel chair. Not at all. My elementary school in Cedar Rapids had to accept and educate severely autistic kids. Do you think they're college bound? Do you think Xavier has to do the same.

 

[seminole97]

I bet he's one of those guys that stands behind someone using food assistance that judges the "choices" they are making with tax payer funded money.

How is that not precisely what you’re doing with education assistance?
You fear someone might make a choice you don’t approve of with taxpayer funded money.
Tell me how I’m wrong.

 

[gohawks50]

They’re both government subsidies that inherently recognize the value of consumer choice.

Why do you prefer political/bureaucratic direction of resources over consumer choice?

They are subsides based on need and income guidelines. There is no need for school vouchers since there is already a free option for school.

 

[fsu1jreed]

They are subsides based on need and income guidelines. There is no need for school vouchers since there is already a free option for school.

You're really trying to use logic with him? Good luck

 

[seminole97]

My elementary school in Cedar Rapids had to accept and educate severely autistic kids.

I think those kids would do better at a school designed from the outset to meet their needs (like the one my wife works at), instead of trying to put the square peg in a round hole.

 

[gohawks50]

How is that not precisely what you’re doing with education assistance?
You fear someone might make a choice you don’t approve of with taxpayer funded money.
Tell me how I’m wrong.

With school vouchers we are funding a private business that can refuse to serve whomever they choose. If private schools were required to honor anyone's voucher I would not have a problem with them. Stores can't refuse an individual's food stamps while honoring food stamps from someone else. Private schools can refuse a student for any reason they choose.

 

[seminole97]

They are subsides based on need and income guidelines. There is no need for school vouchers since there is already a free option for school.

What happens when the ‘free’ option sucks?

Why not have options instead?

 

[seminole97]

With school vouchers we are funding a private business that can refuse to serve whomever they choose. If private schools were required to honor anyone's voucher I would not have a problem with them. Stores can't refuse an individuals food stamps while honoring food stamps from someone else. Private schools can refuse a student for any reason they choose.

Are colleges and their students worse off because the institutions can selectively enroll?

 

[gohawks50]

Are colleges and their students worse off because the institutions can selectively enroll?

Colleges aren't free!

 

[tarheelbybirth]

You’re really just telling the poor to eat cake, but you’re too ignorant to realize it.

I moved to a ‘good school zone’, because I could afford it for my kids.

You’re telling the poor to eat shit while advocating funneling more and more of the money that should be going to their public schools instead go to people who were already sending their kids to private schools. Private schools that are unaccountable to the very people funding them. Private schools that can take whomever they like and exclude anyone else. Private schools that do not produce better results no matter how many anecdotes you wish to cite.

 

[gohawks50]

Are colleges and their students worse off because the institutions can selectively enroll?

Do you believe everyone deserves a high school education?

 

[seminole97]

Colleges aren't free!

You ducked the question.

Are colleges and their students worse off because the institutions can selectively enroll?

 

[gohawks50]

What happens when the ‘free’ option sucks?

Why not have options instead?

There are already options. They can open enroll to another district or choose to pay for a private school education.

 

[seminole97]

You’re telling the poor to eat shit while advocating funneling more and more of the money that should be going to their public schools instead go to people who were already sending their kids to private schools.

I’m saying the money should go to the student to be able pursue education for best for them.

Private schools that are unaccountable to the very people funding them.

I disagree.
The private school is accountable to the families bringing their student (which have the funding attached). Why are you more worried about schools pleasing political power over the families they’re supposed to serve?
How is this ‘accountability’ as you describe it working in places like Baltimore?

Private schools that can take whomever they like and exclude anyone else. Private schools that do not produce better results no matter how many anecdotes you wish to cite.

Why do you suppose your appreciation of their results trumps the appreciation of those who decide to patronize them?

 

[gohawks50]

You ducked the question.

Are colleges and their students worse off because the institutions can selectively enroll?

No, if you can pick and choose your students you can produce higher outcomes, however, the goal of public school is to educate all citizens not just the cream of the crop.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Are colleges and their students worse off because the institutions can selectively enroll?

Education through high school is guaranteed for all and mandated to the age of sixteen, isn’t it? Do you wish to extend that through college and to the age of 22 with public money going only to public schools? I’m good with that. The UNC system is excellent with a myriad of choices.

 

[seminole97]

There are already options. They can open enroll to another district or choose to pay for a private school education.

Why not publicly fund options? That way public choice can eliminate the failures.
Why do you presume to know better than each family their circumstances and needs? Where does this sense of superiority over everyone else’s decision making ability come from?

 

[seminole97]

Education through high school is guaranteed for all and mandated to the age of sixteen, isn’t it? Do you wish to extend that through college and to the age of 22 with public money going only to public schools? I’m good with that. The UNC system is excellent with a myriad of choices.

Why not extend the choices down?

What’s the fear of consumer driven education?

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Why do you suppose your appreciation of their results trumps the appreciation of those who decide to patronize them?

Lol…you’re so full of shit. Why do you criticize public schools when the majority of parents rate their own child’s school highly? Why do you place such value on test results for public schools you don’t require of private schools? Why do you insist on accountability for public schools that you find unnecessary for private schools? Why do you insist on selectivity at the private level that is barred on the public level?

You don’t care for the public accommodations made for your own child? Take them somewhere else on your dime. You want public money? Meet public requirements. Simple.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Why not extend the choices down?

What’s the fear of consumer driven education?

That was already answered. You simply avoided it.

 

[seminole97]

No, if you can pick and choose your students you can produce higher outcomes, however, the goal of public school is to educate all citizens not just the cream of the crop.

Selection on ability actually improves that, and not just for the cream of the crop:


I became painfully aware of this problem more than 40 years ago, when I was teaching at Cornell University, and discovered that half the black students there were on some form of academic probation.

These students were not stupid or uneducable. On the contrary, the average black student at Cornell at that time scored at the 75th percentile on scholastic tests. Their academic qualifications were better than those of three-quarters of all American students who took those tests.

Why were they in trouble at Cornell, then? Because the average Cornell student in the liberal arts college at that time scored at the 99th percentile. The classes taught there — including mine — moved at a speed geared to the verbal and mathematical level of the top one percent of American students.

The average white student would have been wiped out at Cornell. But the average white student was unlikely to be admitted to Cornell, in the first place. Nor was a white student who scored at the 75th percentile.

That was a “favor” reserved for black students. This “favor” turned black students who would have been successful at most American colleges and universities into failures at Cornell.

None of this was peculiar to Cornell. Black students who scored at the 90th percentile in math had serious academic problems trying to keep up at M.I.T., where other students scored somewhere within the top 99th percentile.

Nearly one-fourth of these black students with stellar qualifications in math failed to graduate from M.I.T., and those who did graduate were concentrated in the bottom tenth of the class.

There were other fine engineering schools around the country where those same students could have learned more, when taught at a normal pace, rather than at a breakneck speed geared to students with extremely rare abilities in math.
…
Mismatching students with educational institutions is a formula for needless failures. The book “Mismatch,” by Sander and Taylor is a first-rate study of the hard facts. It shows, for example, that the academic performances of black and Hispanic students rose substantially after affirmative action admissions policies were banned in the University of California system.

Instead of failing at Berkeley or UCLA, these minority students were now graduating from other campuses in the University of California system. They were graduating at a higher rate, with higher grades, and now more often in challenging fields like math, science and technology.

-Thomas Sowell

 

[gohawks50]

Selection on ability actually improves that, and not just for the cream of the crop:


I became painfully aware of this problem more than 40 years ago, when I was teaching at Cornell University, and discovered that half the black students there were on some form of academic probation.

These students were not stupid or uneducable. On the contrary, the average black student at Cornell at that time scored at the 75th percentile on scholastic tests. Their academic qualifications were better than those of three-quarters of all American students who took those tests.

Why were they in trouble at Cornell, then? Because the average Cornell student in the liberal arts college at that time scored at the 99th percentile. The classes taught there — including mine — moved at a speed geared to the verbal and mathematical level of the top one percent of American students.

The average white student would have been wiped out at Cornell. But the average white student was unlikely to be admitted to Cornell, in the first place. Nor was a white student who scored at the 75th percentile.

That was a “favor” reserved for black students. This “favor” turned black students who would have been successful at most American colleges and universities into failures at Cornell.

None of this was peculiar to Cornell. Black students who scored at the 90th percentile in math had serious academic problems trying to keep up at M.I.T., where other students scored somewhere within the top 99th percentile.

Nearly one-fourth of these black students with stellar qualifications in math failed to graduate from M.I.T., and those who did graduate were concentrated in the bottom tenth of the class.

There were other fine engineering schools around the country where those same students could have learned more, when taught at a normal pace, rather than at a breakneck speed geared to students with extremely rare abilities in math.
…
Mismatching students with educational institutions is a formula for needless failures. The book “Mismatch,” by Sander and Taylor is a first-rate study of the hard facts. It shows, for example, that the academic performances of black and Hispanic students rose substantially after affirmative action admissions policies were banned in the University of California system.

Instead of failing at Berkeley or UCLA, these minority students were now graduating from other campuses in the University of California system. They were graduating at a higher rate, with higher grades, and now more often in challenging fields like math, science and technology.

-Thomas Sowell

Why aren't these special private schools for struggling students popping up all over the country in voucher states?

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Selection on ability actually improves that, and not just for the cream of the crop:


I became painfully aware of this problem more than 40 years ago, when I was teaching at Cornell University, and discovered that half the black students there were on some form of academic probation.

These students were not stupid or uneducable. On the contrary, the average black student at Cornell at that time scored at the 75th percentile on scholastic tests. Their academic qualifications were better than those of three-quarters of all American students who took those tests.

Why were they in trouble at Cornell, then? Because the average Cornell student in the liberal arts college at that time scored at the 99th percentile. The classes taught there — including mine — moved at a speed geared to the verbal and mathematical level of the top one percent of American students.

The average white student would have been wiped out at Cornell. But the average white student was unlikely to be admitted to Cornell, in the first place. Nor was a white student who scored at the 75th percentile.

That was a “favor” reserved for black students. This “favor” turned black students who would have been successful at most American colleges and universities into failures at Cornell.

None of this was peculiar to Cornell. Black students who scored at the 90th percentile in math had serious academic problems trying to keep up at M.I.T., where other students scored somewhere within the top 99th percentile.

Nearly one-fourth of these black students with stellar qualifications in math failed to graduate from M.I.T., and those who did graduate were concentrated in the bottom tenth of the class.

There were other fine engineering schools around the country where those same students could have learned more, when taught at a normal pace, rather than at a breakneck speed geared to students with extremely rare abilities in math.
…
Mismatching students with educational institutions is a formula for needless failures. The book “Mismatch,” by Sander and Taylor is a first-rate study of the hard facts. It shows, for example, that the academic performances of black and Hispanic students rose substantially after affirmative action admissions policies were banned in the University of California system.

Instead of failing at Berkeley or UCLA, these minority students were now graduating from other campuses in the University of California system. They were graduating at a higher rate, with higher grades, and now more often in challenging fields like math, science and technology.

-Thomas Sowell

And, again, comparing elite, selective, private, post-secondary schools to public schools doesn’t help your case. Mandate by law that Cornell must accommodate and educate every single student within their “attendance zone” and you have something comparable. Otherwise, you are still full of shit.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Nearly one-fourth of these black students with stellar qualifications in math failed to graduate from M.I.T., and those who did graduate were concentrated in the bottom tenth of the class.

So >75% of these poorly prepared black students graduated from MIT and you think their class rank will matter in five years. L-O-L

 

[Bulldogs1974]

I think those kids would do better at a school designed from the outset to meet their needs (like the one my wife works at), instead of trying to put the square peg in a round hole.

That's technically illegal, least restrictive environment. Your wife can't be teaching at a school that only works with special need kids. Sounds like she is a public school teacher that teaches special ed.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Why not extend the choices down?

What’s the fear of consumer driven education?

Jesus Christ, can you not understand what every poster here has been telling you:
You wouldn't get any complaints if private schools had to accept everyone and report out.
You seem to believe competition is one school getting all the kids with the best circumstances, no behavior, or learning problems and the others get the leftover mess.
That's not competition.

 

[RicoSuave102954]

Not every kid should go to college. Private schools can pick and choose who you accept. If I roll up to Dowling to enroll a kid with cerebral palsy, do you think they are going to have an aid to attend to a child's physical needs in a wheel chair. Not at all. My elementary school in Cedar Rapids had to accept and educate severely autistic kids. Do you think they're college bound? Do you think Xavier has to do the same.

You sort of explained the whole reason parents choose to send their child to private school for a better education. For instance, you inferred the severely autistic child wouldn't go to college, so we can agree it would be a waste of money to send them to Xavier or Dowling and take a seat away from a student who would benefit from the better education afforded them there. Same thing with child who has cerebral palsy.

You Dems just don't get it, these private schools are there to provide a better more advanced education for students, they are not there to become a daycare for severely challenged students, they don't have the resources to handle students like that.

 

[Bearhawk0505]

When Iowa’s income limits go away for the school welfare check, I personally know of multiple 7, yes 7, figure households that will be getting $21000 welfare checks from the taxpayers…….ya think there will be some budget issues ahead?

 

[RicoSuave102954]

When Iowa’s income limits go away for the school welfare check, I personally know of multiple 7, yes 7, figure households that will be getting $21000 welfare checks from the taxpayers…….ya think there will be some budget issues ahead?

Wouldn't that same money be doled out if those families sent their kids to public school? Would you still call it welfare in that situation?

 

[Bearhawk0505]

Wouldn't that same money be doled out if those families sent their kids to public school? Would you still call it welfare in that situation?

Did you conveniently forget about Zaun’s email? These welfare checks can be put into college savings accounts if people pay the tuition on their own. We are funding college for very wealthy people’s kids. It is not remotely the same thing.

 

[Tom Paris]

When Iowa’s income limits go away for the school welfare check, I personally know of multiple 7, yes 7, figure households that will be getting $21000 welfare checks from the taxpayers…….ya think there will be some budget issues ahead?

Free money. Most will take advantage to use that money to put towards their kids' college. Poor families still can't afford private schools because of the purposeful tuition increases.

 

[RicoSuave102954]

Did you conveniently forget about Zaun’s email? These welfare checks can be put into college savings accounts if people pay the tuition on their own. We are funding college for very wealthy people’s kids. It is not remotely the same thing.

So misguided on your part. The point is money is alloted each year for every child, whether the child goes to public school or private school the money follows the student (as it should).

You Dems begrudge every parent for wanting a better life and a better education for their children.

The question is why? Why do you want to deprive students of getting ahead in life?

Why do you not want parents and children to get the best education possible using the hard-earned tax dollars the parents paid in to the State of Iowa?

Why oh why?

 

[RicoSuave102954]

When Iowa’s income limits go away for the school welfare check, I personally know of multiple 7, yes 7, figure households that will be getting $21000 welfare checks from the taxpayers…….ya think there will be some budget issues ahead?

Based on what you just posted are you aware those 7 figure households pay more money in state taxes than just about anyone else in the state. They are probably paying in enough to cover for a hundred low earning families.

You Democrat liberals keep spouting off about the rich being the only ones to benefit from this but always fail to include those same (rich) people are paying the far greater load of taxes in this state.

 

[gohawks50]

Free money. Most will take advantage to use that money to put towards their kids' college. Poor families still can't afford private schools because of the purposeful tuition increases.

And children in 44 counties will suffer for "choice" not even available near them.

 

[Urohawk]

I disagree.
The private school is accountable to the families bringing their student (which have the funding attached). Why are you more worried about schools pleasing political power over the families they’re supposed to serve?
How is this ‘accountability’ as you describe it working in places like Baltimore?

You're 100% right. They are accountable to the parents of their students. Where you're missing the point is that they aren't accountable to the public which is helping to fund those student.

 

[Urohawk]

Selection on ability actually improves that, and not just for the cream of the crop:


I became painfully aware of this problem more than 40 years ago, when I was teaching at Cornell University, and discovered that half the black students there were on some form of academic probation.

These students were not stupid or uneducable. On the contrary, the average black student at Cornell at that time scored at the 75th percentile on scholastic tests. Their academic qualifications were better than those of three-quarters of all American students who took those tests.

Why were they in trouble at Cornell, then? Because the average Cornell student in the liberal arts college at that time scored at the 99th percentile. The classes taught there — including mine — moved at a speed geared to the verbal and mathematical level of the top one percent of American students.

The average white student would have been wiped out at Cornell. But the average white student was unlikely to be admitted to Cornell, in the first place. Nor was a white student who scored at the 75th percentile.

That was a “favor” reserved for black students. This “favor” turned black students who would have been successful at most American colleges and universities into failures at Cornell.

None of this was peculiar to Cornell. Black students who scored at the 90th percentile in math had serious academic problems trying to keep up at M.I.T., where other students scored somewhere within the top 99th percentile.

Nearly one-fourth of these black students with stellar qualifications in math failed to graduate from M.I.T., and those who did graduate were concentrated in the bottom tenth of the class.

There were other fine engineering schools around the country where those same students could have learned more, when taught at a normal pace, rather than at a breakneck speed geared to students with extremely rare abilities in math.
…
Mismatching students with educational institutions is a formula for needless failures. The book “Mismatch,” by Sander and Taylor is a first-rate study of the hard facts. It shows, for example, that the academic performances of black and Hispanic students rose substantially after affirmative action admissions policies were banned in the University of California system.

Instead of failing at Berkeley or UCLA, these minority students were now graduating from other campuses in the University of California system. They were graduating at a higher rate, with higher grades, and now more often in challenging fields like math, science and technology.

-Thomas Sowell

UCLA used to have a 70% acceptance rate, now it is 9%. Scott Galloway has the answer for this. The ivy league graduates less students than Florida State combined. Pretty crappy examples.

 

[sober_teacher]

The private school is accountable to the families bringing their student (which have the funding attached). Why are you more worried about schools pleasing political power over the families they’re supposed to serve?
How is this ‘accountability’ as you describe it working in places like Baltimore?

As urohawk mentioned, private schools that accept students using voucher money aren’t accountable to taxpayers. They can also pick and choose who they accept. Public schools have to take everyone.

Why not extend the choices down?

What’s the fear of consumer driven education?

Because education is a right. Not something that should be driven by economics…which you learn about in school.

No one here has ever stated private schools are bad, or that it’s nice to have options. I already mentioned I went to private school k-12. But that school also had zero capacity to take on special needs students, especially ones with any sort of mobility issues (no ramps or elevators)

 

[RicoSuave102954]

As urohawk mentioned, private schools that accept students using voucher money aren’t accountable to taxpayers. They can also pick and choose who they accept. Public schools have to take everyone.

Because education is a right. Not something that should be driven by economics…which you learn about in school.

No one here has ever stated private schools are bad, or that it’s nice to have options. I already mentioned I went to private school k-12. But that school also had zero capacity to take on special needs students, especially ones with any sort of mobility issues (no ramps or elevators)

Thankfully those special needs students can continue to attend that bastion of education known as the Iowa Public Schools. LOL

 

[sober_teacher]

Thankfully those special needs students can continue to attend that bastion of education known as the Iowa Public Schools. LOL

If private schools are going to accept public funding via vouchers, why should they not be required to attend special needs students?

 

[RicoSuave102954]

If private schools are going to accept public funding via vouchers, why should they not be required to attend special needs students?

Easy answer - They are not equipped to handle them. Secondly the private schools as we know them are there to give students a better education. Face the facts you can't educate a turnip. Many of these special ed students are in the classroom so the parents can have a break. What are going to teach a child who just screams and drools all class yes, it's sad but it is very accurate.