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VW Admits to Diesel Fraud in 11 Million Cars Worldwide

Au contraire. I see them as directly related. The chronology of these chess moves cannot be just a coincidence.
I'm not questioning the depiction of US actions or the accuracy of of the pushback criticism in the UK. But I don't really see much pushback in Germany. It would be a big deal if what Zuesse suggests is true, but he seems to be exaggerating. I could be wrong. I only drilled down 1 level. But Seehofer didn't say all that in what I read.

I am relying on Google to translate the German, but I don't think I missed him saying Germany should switch sides on Syria - I think he didn't say it. Could be he said it somewhere else, of course.
 
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Your heart is in the right place...it usually is. I think we discussed this before. I am just amazed at how people can be so anti-big business, yet, support big government. Is this based on altruistic stump speeches? Just who do you think is running these cabinet posts? We know politicians lie. Let's look at the heads of government cabinet positions. Aren't they laden with corporate lobbyists? It is a revolving door. Monsanto runs the Dept. of Agriculture, Big Pharma runs the FDA, Goldman Sachs runs the Treasury Dept. and so on. It's the fox in charge of the hen house and they pay handsomely to do so.

Not to mention the whole concept of greed. Do we think that business is greedy but government is not?
 
Not to mention the whole concept of greed. Do we think that business is greedy but government is not?
We think that people are greedy.

Both businesses and government afford positions of authority from which greed can be indulged. But, as I have pointed out, there are (theoretically) more restraints on the abuse of that authority on the government side. But authority (power) is the problem.

Authority is also a catalyst for getting things done. Which is why we permit it, and permit its concentration up to a point. Properly limited and regulated, the exercise of power generates benefits for many.

The proper regulation is the key. The more power is concentrated and the fewer restraints are put on that power, the more dangerous the brew becomes.
 
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What's your theory on why vw admitted they were doing this?

All of Nate's 'conspiracy theories' aside....

VW got caught cheating on regulations. BMW and Mercedes, apparently, are able to make their engines 'emissions compliant', as at least from the article, BMW's diesel was able to pass with flying colors. Only VW had data which didn't match prior tests conducted for regulators.

This was a completely INDEPENDENT group re-checking the numbers, NOT EPA or the U.S. government. Publication and public disclosure of the results is what has fried VW on this issue. Nothing to do with 'regulations' or 'paybacks' for anything. Either their cars comply with the regs or they do not.

Now, if someone in the US regulatory infrastructure helped them to cheat the system, and now they've been discovered, that's different. But when other manufacturers seem to be able to comply/meet the standards, there's clearly an inconsistency here.

Why did they do it?

Money, of course! VW cheated on their emissions so they could claim higher horsepower, higher torque and better gas mileage than their vehicles can actually deliver WHEN COMPLYING with the emissions regs. That gives them a significant market advantage over their competitors, if the competitors are actually COMPLYING with the regs (which, per equivalent testing, they were). Altering the engine timing, fuel/oxygen mix, etc is what causes emissions to go up or down, and meeting emissions means compromising other areas of performance.

If you are the only auto maker who can openly cheat emissions, you can outcompete your rivals, because your cars will perform better on metrics the buyers see; not on an emissions spec the buyers will never see and is under the assumption is 'equal' to other cars. They also have a cost advantage if they are using cheaper engine designs which cannot meet emissions, but mean less expensive cars vs their competition.

This has nothing to do with 'big government' or 'government overreach'. It has everything to do with fair free market capitalism: if we as a country VALUE our air quality and want auto emssions below a certain level, we need to enforce regulations that preserve our air quality, or we end up turning into China. This is a case of a company using fraudulent tactics to do an 'end-around' on regs they could not meet if they wanted to preserve mileage and performance - something BMW and Mercedes are apparently able to do.

The emissions regulations are in place to prevent the rest of us from dealing with the health and environmental issues of the excess pollution - again, it's unbalanced/unregulated capitalism allowing a private company to take the gains, and leaving society and government to clean up after them.
 
This news broke 1 week before the VW story. Was this USSA using the EPA to bludgeon Germany over the head and get people in line?

The testing on these vehicles was performed over periods of many weeks or months; so for your latest 'conspiracy' to hold any water, someone needed a time machine to know this was going to happen nearing the end of their tests. Plus, there were already indications of 'funny' results with VW emissions months (even years) before, which is why the WVa group took on the project in the first place.

Now, if they'd STARTED the testing in response to your headlines and were reporting results in response, maybe your tinfoil hat ideas would have an inkling of truth; but the testing and what was being looked into dates back LONG before your news blurbs. That means there is no correlation.
 
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The testing facts and such are not necessarily in conflict with the conspiracy theory (or A conspiracy theory). It is perfectly believable that governments trot out the "ammunition" when and as forcefully as they do to serve political reasons over and above merely catching and punishing crooks.

So, for example, if we wanted to be really nice to Germany, you might expect this thing to be handled very gently. If smaller than it is, it might even be swept under the rug. But even with something this big, if we are in love with Angela Merkel at the moment, we would conceivably call her and negotiate how to handle it in a way that causes the least harm to our ally. Whereas if Angela looks like she's going off the reservation on Ukraine or Syria, we might, instead, use it to slap her back in line.

That said, there's no reason to think this is a made-up problem. Just that there could be more than one drama being acted out.
 
The testing facts and such are not necessarily in conflict with the conspiracy theory (or A conspiracy theory). It is perfectly believable that governments trot out the "ammunition" when and as forcefully as they do to serve political reasons over and above merely catching and punishing crooks.

So, for example, if we wanted to be really nice to Germany, you might expect this thing to be handled very gently. If smaller than it is, it might even be swept under the rug. But even with something this big, if we are in love with Angela Merkel at the moment, we would conceivably call her and negotiate how to handle it in a way that causes the least harm to our ally. Whereas if Angela looks like she's going off the reservation on Ukraine or Syria, we might, instead, use it to slap her back in line.

That said, there's no reason to think this is a made-up problem. Just that there could be more than one drama being acted out.

I disagree; do you think BMW and Mercedes (or any other light-duty diesel car manufacturers) are 'ok' with looking the other way, when their competition is openly violating standards, and making their own vehicle offerings less competitive? If VW also did this in the EU, they are getting their asses handed to them from more than just the United States....and their competition is probably screaming bloody murder if no one holds them accountable and puts their auto imports or certifications on hold. Europe has higher emissions standards than the US (not sure on diesels), so unless then only 'tricked' us, they are in trouble elsewhere as well.
 
I disagree; do you think BMW and Mercedes (or any other light-duty diesel car manufacturers) are 'ok' with looking the other way, when their competition is openly violating standards, and making their own vehicle offerings less competitive? If VW also did this in the EU, they are getting their asses handed to them from more than just the United States....and their competition is probably screaming bloody murder if no one holds them accountable and puts their auto imports or certifications on hold. Europe has higher emissions standards than the US (not sure on diesels), so unless then only 'tricked' us, they are in trouble elsewhere as well.
I agree with that. It doesn't really affect what I said.

That this is real isn't in doubt. But that it may have been handled in the particular way it was handed for political considerations is also plausible and even probable.
 
I think the interesting question now is whether people will buy VWs - diesels or otherwise.

Will VW be forced to offer deep discounts? If they do, would you consider buying one of their products?

Presumably the "fix" will hurt VW's performance and fuel efficiency. I wonder how much of a hit that will be.
 
The results of that study, which was paid for by the nonprofit International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) in late 2012 and completed in May 2013, were later corroborated by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and California Air Resources Board (CARB).

Carder's team - a research professor, two graduate students, a faculty member and himself - performed road tests around Los Angeles and up the West Coast to Seattle that generated results so pronounced that they initially suspected a problem with their methodology.
LOL....so this was first directly identified ~2 years ago, and has since been re-verified (because they didn't believe their results at first), and the investigation has progressed over 2 years to where NOW VW has finally been accused of (and admitted to) fraud.

So, no. There is no 'conspiracy theory' here regarding 'what happened 1 week ago'. European sources who worked with this group that produced the results to verify. VW has far more diesels in Europe that the US.

They are officially 'fooked' over this, because their European market, far larger than the US market, just went to '0'.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/aut...rs-testing-opened-can-worms-automaker-n432896

The same guy/group uncovered problems with Cummins/Caterpillar doing essentially the same thing in 1998, so this type of fraud is not new; history repeats itself.

Carder belonged to a 15-member West Virginia University team that pioneered portable emissions testing as part of a 1998 settlement between the U.S. Justice Department and several heavy duty diesel engine makers, including Caterpillar Inc. and Cummins Engine Co.
The manufacturers agreed to pay $83.4 million in civil penalties after federal officials found evidence that they were selling heavy duty diesel engines equipped with "defeat devices" that allowed the engines to meet EPA emission standards during testing but disabled the emission control system during normal highway driving.
When the news about Volkswagen broke last Friday, Carder heard from some of the heavy diesel engine manufacturers that were part of the consent decree.
"They saw what had happened and called to say: 'Good job, you guys,'" Carder said. "Some folks said: 'How did they not learn from our mistakes 15 years ago?'"

Regarding his role in unearthing the current scandal, Carder said there was no particular sense of excitement when his team confirmed that the higher VW emission results were real and not a consequence of faulty measurements.
"There's no incentive for us to pass or fail," he said. "Obviously, we don't want to see something spewing emissions and polluting the environment. But we really have no horse in the race, as they say."
 
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I think the interesting question now is whether people will buy VWs - diesels or otherwise.

Will VW be forced to offer deep discounts? If they do, would you consider buying one of their products?

Presumably the "fix" will hurt VW's performance and fuel efficiency. I wonder how much of a hit that will be.
You mean people won't buy them because their "dirty" cars? People still buy Toyotas when their airbags killed
 
You mean people won't buy them because their "dirty" cars? People still buy Toyotas when their airbags killed

It's a little different when a car is purposely designed to deceive and is marketed under false pretenses than when a car company has, unbeknownst to them, installed a defective part in their cars. One is an unfortunate mistake, the other is a criminal conspiracy:

Bob Rand bought his Volkswagen Passat last year for its clean emissions and high gas mileage. He liked the car so much he convinced his son and a friend to buy one, too.

Now, as Volkswagen comes clean about rigging diesel emissions to pass U.S. tests, Rand is desperately trying to sell the fully loaded model with white leather seats for $10,000 below what he paid. His sole bite has been from a man who offered $7,500 on speculation that he could resell it in Mexico.

"Volkswagen was somebody that you could rely on for cutting-edge products and quality and all those things and now you find out that they're not above lying just flat out," said Rand, who plans to join a class-action lawsuit against VW. "That's probably about as bad a thing as a company can do is lie to your face when you're buying a $35,000 car."

Rand's anger at the world's top-selling car company was echoed Wednesday by private dealers, auto wholesalers and owners across the U.S. as fallout from the smog test trickery mounted.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency first disclosed Friday that stealth software makes VW's 2009-2015 model cars powered by 2.0-liter diesel engines run cleaner during emissions tests than in actual driving. On Wednesday, Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn resigned and took responsibility for the "irregularities" found by U.S. inspectors — a scandal that has wiped out billions in the company's market value and raised the possibility of criminal investigations and billions more in fines.

The revelations left dealers sitting on hundreds of diesel cars they could not sell. Many also dealt with a flood of angry calls, emails and tweets from Volkswagen owners who felt betrayed because they believed they had bought a car that polluted less without sacrificing the good gas mileage and performance that comes with a diesel engine.

"I think their feet should be held to the fire. I think apologies don't mean anything when something is so premeditated," said Joe DeCarolis, of Cary, N.C., who owns a 2012 TDI Jetta Sport Wagon — a car he bought after careful comparison shopping for its clean emissions and good gas mileage.

Dealers can't give customers good answers because Volkswagen hasn't said a whole lot, said AutoNation CEO Mike Jackson, the leader of the largest auto dealership chain in the U.S.

AutoNation's six Volkswagen and eight Audi dealerships in the U.S. are telling customers that the cars are safe to drive and promising to call them as soon as they know more about repairs. "That's not adequate," Jackson said. "We need answers by next week."

A lot of people within VW had to know about the software that turned emissions controls on during government tests and off for regular driving, especially because the scheme went on for multiple years, Jackson said.

"This tells me that it's not a bad apple. It's not a rogue employee. It's deliberate deception," Jackson said. "It's a systemic failure. This took a lot of meetings. This took a lot of engineers. This took a lot of software programmers to put in place and keep in place."

Meanwhile, concern was growing at private dealerships about what to do with inventory that's now gathering dust.

At Volkswagen of Oakland, California, nearly two dozen new diesel cars have no chance of being sold in the short-term, while 25 2016 model vehicles are being held up at the Port of San Diego because they can't pass emissions standards, sales manager Chris Murphy said. Customers have been calling and emailing to demand the dealership buy their cars back or offer refunds.

"We can't afford to buy all those cars back. We're just one dealer," he said, adding that diesel models make up about 30 percent of the business. "This is definitely going to impact our business. We're trying to focus on positive, not negative things because there's nothing we can do."

Volkswagen has taken steps to help out the dealership, Murphy said. That includes guaranteeing reimbursement for sales objectives for two quarters whether or not the goals are met and waiving the interest the local franchise normally pays on unsold cars on their sales floor, he said.

"They're making all the right steps. ... I'm just waiting for everything to get uncovered to see how deep this really goes. I'm not mad at anyone except the people higher up who made these decisions," Murphy said.

Lash Volkswagen of White Plains, N.Y., has been scrambling to accommodate affected Volkswagen owners by giving them loaner cars and picking up or dropping off their cars when it's time for repair, said Tom Backer, general manager of the dealership in New York's Westchester County.

Dealers, he said, were told that there will be both software and hardware changes to fix the problem. They're already on 2016 models and are awaiting approval from the Environmental Protection Agency, Backer said. Older models will get the same fixes, he said.

"What we say is, 'Let's wait a little bit and see how exactly this all shakes out,' " Backer said.

But not every Volkswagen dealer is fielding calls from angry customers.

Bill Haggerty, a sales manager at a VW dealership in the Chicago suburb of Oak Lawn, Illinois, said he hasn't heard concerns from customers so far. Diesels make up less than 20 percent of his business and draw the most interest from customers looking for better gas mileage, he said.

"We have 200 Volkswagens in stock; three of them are Jetta diesels," he said. "So, it's not like every Volkswagen out there has got a diesel motor in it. They sell an awful lot of cars with good gas mileage and great safety records. "

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-volkswagen-scandal-dealers-owners-20150924-story.html
 
You mean people won't buy them because their "dirty" cars? People still buy Toyotas when their airbags killed

They won't buy them because:

A) Legally, they will not be able to be sold if they don't pass federal emissions standards

and/or

B) Once you own it, you may need to take it in to have the fix performed, or you might not be able to re-register it the following year.

In certain counties in CO, you have to have an emissions test for cars >3 (or so) years old. My guess is that they will update their forms for diesel vehicles, so that you bring proof of the fix with you, just like the form from the emissions center. Your vehicle registration reminder they mail out always tells you if you are due for an emissions test.

Because this is a federal, not a county or state issue, they may require proof of the fix for those models before you can re-register the vehicles - probably within a year or so of when they announce the 'fix'. That might deter me from bothering w/ a VW diesel if I was planning to buy diesel.

And, yes, I do have a diesel vehicle, only I believe it is grandfathered from the newer emissions; it has 'passed' the emissions tests for diesel vehicles in my county the last 2x I've needed to test it. (Not a VW - Jeep with the VM Motori engine; turbodiesels are absolute beasts climbing up the hills at high altitudes out here.)
 
You mean people won't buy them because their "dirty" cars? People still buy Toyotas when their airbags killed
They won't buy them (maybe) because they are dishonorable.

They won't buy them (somewhat more likely) because when they are "fixed" they won't get such good gas mileage or acceleration.

I partly agree with what you are saying. GM ignitions, too. Firestone tires. And so on. But the big difference here, I think, is that this is both a much more massive issue and seems to be totally premeditated. Some of those others were mistakes that the companies decided to run with after discovery for economic reasons. Which is pretty shitty. But at least they didn't deliberately set out to cheat people and break the law from the start.
 
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Suppose an American company did this. Would the US government have the authority to cancel their corporate charter? As I understand it, corporate charters are still issued by states. As bizarre as that sounds. Does that mean lying and cheating corporations continue to enjoy their limited liability status because of states rights?

We have seen that the feds have the power to prop up bad actors - the bailouts, for example - but can they knock them down?

Should we empower the federal government to revoke corporate charters in the case of egregious violations of law or for other reasons?
 
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