What are the chances that both Murray bros are gone after this season?

littlez

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In each of those games, he had 2 fouls in 11 minutes. The game after that he played 20 minutes and only had 2 fouls. He fouled out of the next game in 26 minutes, had 4 fouls in 24 minutes in the game after that, then 3 fouls in 15 minutes in the game after that. He is foul-prone and not just because of defending 5s.
A lot of it is because he’s defending the 5. He’s a small forward. At most a power forward. Fran plays him mostly at the 5 on defense.
 

jonesy5960

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A lot of it is because he’s defending the 5. He’s a small forward. At most a power forward. Fran plays him mostly at the 5 on defense.
That's a big part of it and I'll be the first to say that Kris picks up some dumb fouls. He's aggressive defensively and he's gotta learn to avoid those. Like Joe he also understands the concept of help defense and picks up some that way defending the rim when others get beat. He's easily the second best defender of the forwards and fouls are NOT the primary reason Kris doesn’t get more minutes.
 

BBHawk

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Oct 31, 2001
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C'mon BB. Fouls are NOT the primary reason that Kris isn't starting or averaging 25 minutes and you know it. This discussion is so ridiculous it borders on insanity.
He’s averaging over 5 fouls/40 minutes. Only Big O and Mulvey average more. I guess if you don't think that's legit I won't argue with you. But generally when he fouls a lot, he is struggling other ways. He just still learning. If you cannot see that, let's just agree to disagree.
 

longliveCS40

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I think it'll depend how Kris closes out the year and how he tests in any scout combines. If he plays well and gets a lot of minutes and then tests well, I could see him going.

My gut right now says Keegan goes but Kris stays another year. Would not surprise me in the slightest if both go pro after this season.
 

MAXIMUSHAWKEYE

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Nope. They're not. And you've never been a twin and I have, so my life experience provides me with more insight than you will ever have on this topic. Oh, and fouls aren't the reason that Kris doesn't get extended minutes more often. Just an FYI.
Yeah, I can't imagine the kind of relationship and bond that twins have. You literally go thru the same progression thru life with another person that is blood. Maybe Keegan will come back one more year because he will never live and play with Kris again when they leave Iowa. How much money is that worth?
 

longliveCS40

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Yeah, I can't imagine the kind of relationship and bond that twins have. You literally go thru the same progression thru life with another person that is blood. Maybe Keegan will come back one more year because he will never live and play with Kris again when they leave Iowa. How much money is that worth?
Every twins experience is not the same. The Murrays are intelligent people and I suspect a lot more intellect than emotion will go into the decision.

Would love to see Keegan back but we will see.
 

jonesy5960

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Yeah, I can't imagine the kind of relationship and bond that twins have. You literally go thru the same progression thru life with another person that is blood. Maybe Keegan will come back one more year because he will never live and play with Kris again when they leave Iowa. How much money is that worth?
I don't know the relationship that Kris and Keegan have with one another but I can only imagine it is special. There is/was nothing like it for my brother and me. I love my wife and I adore my kids. The bond that I had with my brother was just different. We came into the world together and experienced it through mostly the same set of eyes for 20 years, never living apart. Same schools, same friends, same teams. It was amazing and a blessing.
 

KcTo

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I dont think Kris’ shot is as far off of Keega’s as you suggest. Keegan plays stronger and finishes a lot better. More explosive player. I do think Kris has a better looking 3 point shot.

Anything can happen in these last few games, but unless Kris goes on a tear into the NCAAs I would expect him to come back next year and have a very good year.
I’m a pretty yuuge believer in the ‘lean back‘ jump shooting technique, Keegan does it flawlessly, which gives you range ans touch from anywhere. It can be deadly when combined with fluidity, makes it look effortless,

kris OTOH, is more of a stand straight up shooter, bith feet rising and landing together, a total different style.

most all the classic NBA shooters have the ‘lean back’ approach,

this is why I think Kris has a lot of work to do to catch up with shooting contested jumpers.
IMHO
 

RocknRollface

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That's a big part of it and I'll be the first to say that Kris picks up some dumb fouls. He's aggressive defensively and he's gotta learn to avoid those. Like Joe he also understands the concept of help defense and picks up some that way defending the rim when others get beat. He's easily the second best defender of the forwards and fouls are NOT the primary reason Kris doesn’t get more minutes.
It's a reason sometimes and yes Kris picks up too many bad fouls.

But Fran clearly doesn't, or at least didn't, view Kris as the second best/most important player.

You don't hold a player to an average of 18 minutes because of an average of 2.4 fouls. That doesn't make any sense.

If a foul prone player is your second best player you would see that player fouling out consistently.
 

longliveCS40

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I’m a pretty yuuge believer in the ‘lean back‘ jump shooting technique, Keegan does it flawlessly, which gives you range ans touch from anywhere. It can be deadly when combined with fluidity, makes it look effortless,

kris OTOH, is more of a stand straight up shooter, bith feet rising and landing together, a total different style.

most all the classic NBA shooters have the ‘lean back’ approach,

this is why I think Kris has a lot of work to do to catch up with shooting contested jumpers.
IMHO
Kris is the better shooter of the two in my opinion. He has a better 3 point percentage than Keegan and shoots better at the free throw line.

Kris has just had a lot less playing time overall and gets a lot less per game this season so I think it's hard for him to get into a rhythm at times.
 
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KcTo

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Kris is the better shooter of the two in my opinion. He has a better 3 point percentage than Keegan and shoots better at the free throw line.

Kris has just had a lot less playing time overall and gets a lot less per game this season so I think it's hard for him to get into a rhythm at times.
You’re kidding right?

Kris usually shoots wide open catch and shoot 3’s.

Keegan, OTOH, has guy in his face, must do crossover dribble, create a tiny gap of separation, and them elevate into a contested 3. The 1st time Kris does that and miss the whole internet will explode that Kris is forcing shots.

FT shooting is another totally unguarded activity that requires similar, but slightly different skill sets.

I hear what you’re saying , but watch some game replays and you’ll see what I mean.
 

longliveCS40

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You’re kidding right?

Kris usually shoots wide open catch and shoot 3’s.

Keegan, OTOH, has guy in his face, must do crossover dribble, create a tiny gap of separation, and them elevate into a contested 3. The 1st time Kris does that and miss the whole internet will explode that Kris is forcing shots.

FT shooting is another totally unguarded activity that requires similar, but slightly different skill sets.

I hear what you’re saying , but watch some game replays and you’ll see what I mean.
I'm not kidding. I've watched every minute of every game. Kris is the better shooter. We aren't talking about ability to create your shots. We are talking about shooting the basketball. Free throws are shooting which is why you see good shooters have high FT percentages.
 
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KcTo

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I'm not kidding. I've watched every minute of every game. Kris is the better shooter. We aren't talking about ability to create your shots. We are talking about shooting the basketball. Free throws are shooting which is why you see good shooters have high FT percentages.
But the thread is about Murray’s going pro, correct?
keegan has the ability to create his own jump shot under pressure and convert, has the ability to do step back mid range, and ability to do turnaround jumpers, and convert, all under pressure.
if you’ve watched every minute you should be able to describe those 3 examples of Kris shooting under pressure and converting.

I suspect you are referring to Kris 3pt and FT% only and compared Keegan’s.

shooting wide open uncontested shots and the wide variety of Keegan’s arsenal are really 2 different skill sets, and why Keegan is a lotto pick and Kris may never get drafted
 

Rifler

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Kris isn't ready yet,.. and right now I think the only thing that might keep Keegan around would be playing one more year with his brother....
 

Hawk_4shur

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Kris has a very high ceiling, but he's not going anywhere.

In fact, it would be a very poor decision for him to go. Wait a year to develop and possibly get some of the buzz Keegan is creating. He is going to be the go-to guy for the Hawks next year.
 
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Hawk_4shur

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Kris isn't ready yet,.. and right now I think the only thing that might keep Keegan around would be playing one more year with his brother....
That would be a lot of love. ;)

Ziaire Williams was the tenth pick last year (I think) and signed a guaranteed contract for $10 million over 2 years, or $20 million if the team picks up the option for 3 & 4.

"Rookie scale contracts are guaranteed for the first two years, with team options on the third and fourth years."

Not to mention, the compensation difference between the #1 pick and the #30 pick is even bigger than I thought. #1 got $10 million a year, #30 got $2 million. Playing another year and dropping would be very, very expensive.
 

Rifler

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That would be a lot of love. ;)

Ziaire Williams was the tenth pick last year (I think) and signed a guaranteed contract for $10 million over 2 years, or $20 million if the team picks up the option for 3 & 4.

"Rookie scale contracts are guaranteed for the first two years, with team options on the third and fourth years."

Yes it would be,.. But I think Keegan is just as draftable next year,.. perhaps even more so,
 
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Hawk_4shur

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Yes it would be,.. But I think Keegan is just as draftable next year,.. perhaps even more so,
Of course, probably. It's the probably vs a practical guarantee that sends guys to the NBA.

If he projects top 10, everyone will be telling him to take the money.
 
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ChiPackHawk

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Why would he look it up? You've already said what the number is.

Im pretty sure no one is doubting the number just the reasoning.

That doesn't mean fouls are the reason.

Sometimes fouls have limited his PT but 2.4 isn't a reason to limit someone's PT.

You get 5 fouls not 3.
The trio of basketball intellectuals at it again!
 

toddhawkwi

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Why do all of these threads turn so negative? C'mon folks we all love our Hawkeyes. Hammer an SEC team's fan base.

Anyway I thought Kris' 2nd half Saturday was the first time I saw what a saw in Keegan last year.. all of the "other stuff" (offensive rebounds, chasing loose balls, good switches on defense). Those are the things that I thought prepared his brother for this year and will prepare him to show his stuff next year. Can he do next year what his brother did this year and become a lottery pick? Time will tell but I'm finally thinking the answer might be yes (didn't think that before). GO HAWKS!!
 

83Hawk

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I don’t think Kris is ready yet. Keegan, yes. Will he go? I don’t know. I could see him coming back for one more year with he and Kris as starters.
 
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ChiPackHawk

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In each of those games, he had 2 fouls in 11 minutes. The game after that he played 20 minutes and only had 2 fouls. He fouled out of the next game in 26 minutes, had 4 fouls in 24 minutes in the game after that, then 3 fouls in 15 minutes in the game after that. He is foul-prone and not just because of defending 5s.
You can't discuss basketball with those three. They have their agenda and nothing will change that. In their world I guess it's OK to be foul prone. Fouls get your team in trouble in so many ways, but hey, why would that ever be a possible reason for his minutes total? Crazy conspiracy theories make far more sense!
 
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Rifler

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Of course, probably. It's the probably vs a practical guarantee that sends guys to the NBA. If he projects top 10, everyone will be telling him to take the money.

Of course they will tell him to take the money,.. he probably should, and he probably will...
 
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ChiPackHawk

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Why do all of these threads turn so negative? C'mon folks we all love our Hawkeyes. Hammer an SEC team's fan base.

Anyway I thought Kris' 2nd half Saturday was the first time I saw what a saw in Keegan last year.. all of the "other stuff" (offensive rebounds, chasing loose balls, good switches on defense). Those are the things that I thought prepared his brother for this year and will prepare him to show his stuff next year. Can he do next year what his brother did this year and become a lottery pick? Time will tell but I'm finally thinking the answer might be yes (didn't think that before). GO HAWKS!!
They turn negative because certain people can't have a discussion without acting juvenile and that their opinion is the only one that can possibly be correct.
 
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jonesy5960

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You can't discuss basketball with those three. They have their agenda and nothing will change that. In their world I guess it's OK to be foul prone. Fouls get your team in trouble in so many ways, but hey, why would that ever be a possible reason for his minutes total? Crazy conspiracy theories make far more sense!
Who's promoting conspiracy theories?
 
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SB_SB

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I don’t think Kris is ready yet. Keegan, yes. Will he go? I don’t know. I could see him coming back for one more year with he and Kris as starters.

The way I see it, Keegan has to go so Kris can then be a starter. There's no way Keegan is staying, zero chance. Kris will then be gone after the next year.
 
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BVHawkeye

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And just how do you know I’m not? How do you know I’m not the father of twins? No you’re probably right. The only reason he doesn’t get more minutes is because Fran knows even less about basketball than you. Childish.
My guess is Fran knows more about basketball than you do.
 

littlez

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Huh, what?
in case you haven’t noticed, Kris not good enough to start on a near bubble team….

How on earth do you think he can play in the NBA?
Do you not think he should be starting? I agree w/a lot of your basketball posts, but you know that the NBA drafts on potential, which is why you see some guys whose numbers aren't great but have incredible measurables drafted in the top 15. I don't think Kris is in that category, but I do think he will get drafted. Clearly not this year, but I think he breaks out next year and we see more of what he can do as a creator and finisher. We already know he's got a pretty good stroke. He's long, he's athletic, he can block shots, rebound (leading rebounder Saturday against a very physical Ohio State team) etc. He just needs more time on the court to show it. Next year will be that year. Just my opinion.
 

RocknRollface

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I’m a pretty yuuge believer in the ‘lean back‘ jump shooting technique, Keegan does it flawlessly, which gives you range ans touch from anywhere. It can be deadly when combined with fluidity, makes it look effortless,

kris OTOH, is more of a stand straight up shooter, bith feet rising and landing together, a total different style.

most all the classic NBA shooters have the ‘lean back’ approach,

this is why I think Kris has a lot of work to do to catch up with shooting contested jumpers.
IMHO
Most of the time 3 point shots are not defended.

The guys that take contested shots are the primary ballhandlers and a handful of guys that still run off screens. (Not many of them left)

Most guys on the court are there to just space the floor waiting for the swing pass or cut to the basket.

Neither brother will be asked to do much creating off the dribble.

They're value is in being versatile defenders who can defend 1-5, block shots, rebound, and hit open 3s.
 

Ronman

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Planet Iowa
Just for the record, even with Keegan's recent struggles from the line, he still shoots a better % than Kris, 73 to 68, and with a lot more attempts.
 

RocknRollface

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But the thread is about Murray’s going pro, correct?
keegan has the ability to create his own jump shot under pressure and convert, has the ability to do step back mid range, and ability to do turnaround jumpers, and convert, all under pressure.
if you’ve watched every minute you should be able to describe those 3 examples of Kris shooting under pressure and converting.

I suspect you are referring to Kris 3pt and FT% only and compared Keegan’s.

shooting wide open uncontested shots and the wide variety of Keegan’s arsenal are really 2 different skill sets, and why Keegan is a lotto pick and Kris may never get drafted

You're failing to recognize that the nba is full of 3 and D guys that are never asked to create off the dribble outside of attacking a close out.

Every team has like 4 or 5 of those guys.

Both brothers fit that mold perfectly.

Keegan probably has a more upside to eventually develop into a guy who can create too.
 

RocknRollface

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Kris isn't ready yet,.. and right now I think the only thing that might keep Keegan around would be playing one more year with his brother....
The only thing that matters is if a team is ready to draft a player.

They draft based on where they project a player to be not where they currently are.
 
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Titanhawk2

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Nope. They're not. And you've never been a twin and I have, so my life experience provides me with more insight than you will ever have on this topic. Oh, and fouls aren't the reason that Kris doesn't get extended minutes more often. Just an FYI.
Then you're not really looking at his fouls per minutes played much either. Not THE factor, A factor though
 
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RocknRollface

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Huh, what?
in case you haven’t noticed, Kris not good enough to start on a near bubble team….

How on earth do you think he can play in the NBA?
Hes not good enough to start on this team?

You've stated repeatedly hes the second best player.

I doubt Kris will go on a borderline first round evaluation which is where I'm guessing he'll be.

He would most likely want to come back to improve that.
 

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