What are the chances that both Murray bros are gone after this season?

littlez

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The only thing that matters is if a team is ready to draft a player.

They draft based on where they project a player to be not where they currently are.
20% of this board does not understand that since we have had so few players in the league. Sure, Keegan would be drafted again next year, but as a top 15 pick which he will be this year, why would you wait a year and pass up that guaranteed money? He's not a Luka or Joe, he's going to get into a teams rotation. This is life changing money, and it's going to be available now. The process has already started, it's not like these guys don't know where they're being projected. We're an 8th place team going to make the tournament as a 8-9-10 seed, which is a good year after losing Luka and Joe. Could we be a top 5 Big Ten team next year if he comes back? Top 25 in the NCAA? Or do you go to your dream and go make 10 million dollars a year.
 
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Rifler

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Sure, Keegan would be drafted again next year, but as a top 15 pick which he will be this year, why would you wait a year and pass up that guaranteed money?

Maybe because money isn't always the motivating factor,.. and it will be there next year as well.
 
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jonesy5960

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Then you're not really looking at his fouls per minutes played much either. Not THE factor, A factor though
Sure it's A factor. It's A factor for every player especially given Fran's adherence to his 2 foul rule. Kris picks up some dumb fouls like he did against Michigan, but Cmac fouls at the same rate as Kris in conference play and they both foul at a rate that's just one more than Rebraca. Players down low that play against physical posts tend to pick up more fouls than players outside who play a less physical game.

With that said, when it comes to fouls, it has not been Kris's fouls that dictate his playing time more often than not. He did foul out at the very end of 2 games which really had no bearing on his total minutes. It's actually been the fouls or injuries of Keegan and Rebraca that have determined whether Kris gets extended minutes. Up until this last game, I don't believe that Kris has seen more than 20 minutes in a game where Keegan or Rebraca wasn't pulled for injury or fouls. Where one of them was pulled Kris has played extended minutes every time.
 
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littlez

HR Heisman
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Maybe because money isn't always the motivating factor,.. and it will be there next year as well.
Well no it's not, but if/when you went to college to get a degree and got a job offer, would you not take the best opportunity. Kenyon has said it's the boys dreams to get to the league. I mean if he loves college and wants to come back for another year fine. Not sure you can find many top 10-15 guys who come back for another year of basically practice. If you're ready for the league you normally go. I guess we will see. There's also the matter of getting injured.
 

ChiPackHawk

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You realize thats you right?

The proof is in writing in this thread.
Nope - you're the one that has to react to every little comment. The one that started it all wasn't even a shot at you. It was just and opinion based on fact and you being overly defensive got it all going.
 

ChiPackHawk

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He is playing the 5 and I will leave it at that….
Just amazing how a simple observation and objective fact is so over analyzed. You realize I wasn't bashing him, right? A simple comment made about how some technique could be improved and his fouls may be keeping his minutes down and I'm out of line?
 

littlez

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Nope - you're the one that has to react to every little comment. The one that started it all wasn't even a shot at you. It was just and opinion based on fact and you being overly defensive got it all going.
An opinion based on fact. Interesting. 😏
 

Rifler

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Well no it's not, but if/when you went to college to get a degree and got a job offer, would you not take the best opportunity. Kenyon has said it's the boys dreams to get to the league. I mean if he loves college and wants to come back for another year fine. Not sure you can find many top 10-15 guys who come back for another year of basically practice. If you're ready for the league you normally go. I guess we will see. There's also the matter of getting injured.

I suspect you will be proven correct.
 

ChiPackHawk

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3 idiots. So now that Kenyon has joined in the post how do you feel about this? I'll take his word for it over anyone else on the board, Thank you!
He said it's because he's playing the post - fair enough. He said that's the reason why he's getting more fouls called. Not really disagreeing that his minutes may be down because of it. Two different issues. You want to blame Fran for the roster construction, go right ahead. But somebody has to guard the post and Kris just happens to be one of them.
 

jonesy5960

HR All-American
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Just amazing how a simple observation and objective fact is so over analyzed. You realize I wasn't bashing him, right? A simple comment made about how some technique could be improved and his fouls may be keeping his minutes down and I'm out of line?
Nope. It wasn't a "fact" that people have analyzed. It was an opinion you stated that the reason Kris doesn't get extended minutes is because he fouls too much and needs to work on his defense.
 

ChiPackHawk

HR MVP
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Just stop already. You never had a twin.

Nope. It wasn't a "fact" that people have analyzed. It was an opinion you stated that the reason Kris doesn't get extended minutes is because he fouls too much and needs to work on his defense.
How is leading the team in fouls per game not an objective fact? What freaking world do you live in?
 

jonesy5960

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How about you give me the reason why YOU think his minutes are down?
Well it's not a conspiracy. A conspiracy involves an act by multiple people to work together to take a certain action. It typically involves something illegal and this is still only basketball we're talking about here. Fran is the only one making these decisions. He doesn't need to conspire with anyone. Only Fran can tell you why he plays who he does and when. I could guess, but like you that would simply be conjecture. I'm an analytical guy.

Every metric suggests the Kris should be getting starting minutes and yet he hasn't except where others arent available. I don't use terms like nepotism like others on here have. I don't think it's that deep or nefarious. Do I think Fran or any other coach has biases that impact their decisions? I absolutely do. He wouldn't be human if he didn't. I think it's naive to believe otherwise. Kris is playing out of position at the 5 far more than any player on the team even though he is more than capable of playing 2-4. Even playing out of position like he's been, the metrics still say he's the second most productive player on the team, and it's not even close.

If I'm the coach I play him as many minutes as I can until he fouls out. I will find ways to get him minutes because he's one of the best players on the team and he is versatile enough to play any of them at as high or higher level than the other players I have. But that's just me. I'm a numbers guy. My decisions are driven soley by production.
 
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unoHawkeye

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Precisely. It drives me absolutely nuts how Fran had mismanaged the Murray twins’ roles the last two seasons.
I understand wanting to get Kris more minutes at his natural position(s), but isn’t the goal and what we all want for Fran to have the best players on the court for as many minutes as possible? If our three best players are Keegan, Kris, and Patrick (which is absolutely the case), Pat isn’t strong enough to defend interior post, and you want to keep Keegan out of foul trouble, then what other option is there?

You can start Kris over Patrick, but then you have one of the Murray’s, fresh off of six minutes of game play, sliding over to the five to spell Rebraca when he comes out of the game, thereby likely making the foul situation an even bigger factor

It’s not ideal. If we had either Nunge or Robbins giving six more minutes per game effectively than Rebraca is, Kris would be logging heavier minutes at the 3 (with a few still at the five) and this wouldn’t be a conversation. I think Fran is managing the lineups the best he can, and to his credit, Iowa is drastically exceeding preseason expectations
 
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ChiPackHawk

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Well it's not a conspiracy. A conspiracy involves an act by multiple people to work together to take a certain action. It typically involves something illegal and this is still only basketball we're talking about here. Fran is the only one making these decisions. He doesn't need to conspire with anyone. Only Fran can tell you why he plays who he does and when. I could guess, but like you that would simply be conjecture. I'm an analytical guy.

Every metric suggests the Kris should be getting starting minutes and yet he hasn't except where others arent available. I don't use terms like nepotism like others on here have. I don't think it's that deep or nefarious. Do I think Fran or any other coach has biases that impact their decisions? I absolutely do. He wouldn't be human if he didn't. I think it's naive to believe otherwise. Kris is playing out of position at the 5 far more than any player on the team even though he is more than capable of playing 2-4. Even playing out of position like he's been, the metrics still say he's the second most productive player on the team, and it's not even close.

If I'm the coach I play him as many minutes as I can until he fouls out. I will find ways to get him minutes because he's one of the best players on the team and he is versatile enough to play any of them a high or higher level than the other players I have. But that's just me. I'm a numbers guy. My decisions are driven soley by production.
Some of your points I agree with. Except this - what do you say when he's fouled out with 5 minutes to play and you wish you had your 2nd best player on the court? Yes, I think he would be better off guarding the 3-4 type player. He can't effectively guard a 2 any more than he can effectively guard a 5. Someone has to guard the 5. Don't give me JO because he can't for any length of time. Rebraca is too small. Keegan - of course not because you can't have him out of position defensively because of his value to the team. Who does that leave? Connor? Like I said, if you want to blame Fran for something it could be roster construction. Though I think having Nunge may have helped here too.

All I ever pointed out was his fouling leads to reduced minutes like it does for any other player. I also said give him a year to get better before he goes to the league. How sinful! The reason he is getting fouls is irrelevant to my point. The fact is he is and that limits playing time. Playing with 4 fouls the player becomes tentative. Five and you're gone and me like anyone else wants to see him on the court at the end of the game, not on the bench.

Amazing that you can have a discussion without childish comments and instantly attacking or mocking someone because their point(s) might be a little different than your own.
 

littlez

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I understand wanting to get Kris more minutes at his natural position(s), but isn’t the goal and what we all want for Fran to have the best players on the court for as many minutes as possible? If our three best players are Keegan, Kris, and Patrick (which is absolutely the case), Pat isn’t strong enough to defend interior post, and you want to keep Keegan out of foul trouble, then what other option is there?

You can start Kris over Patrick, but then you have one of the Murray’s, fresh off of six minutes of game play, sliding over to the five to spell Rebraca when he comes out of the game, thereby likely making the foul situation an even bigger factor

It’s not ideal. If we had either Nunge or Robbins giving six more minutes per game effectively than Rebraca is, Kris would be logging heavier minutes at the 3 (with a few still at the five) and this wouldn’t be a conversation. I think Fran is managing the lineups the best he can, and to his credit, Iowa is drastically exceeding preseason expectations
That's a fair post. And yes, the Nunge situation really really hurt us. And it's not as easy as we all say to just go get a solid big man from the portal. Or everyone would do it. So I agree on all of that. I do think however, that Kris basically giving up size and weight and only getting to play the 5 obviously leads to him getting foul trouble, especially in a league full of really good 5's. It also makes it tough for Rebraca as well. And I guess looking at it he's our best option at this point. While that being said, that doesn't mean you couldn't put him at the 2-3 at other times. this is not a knock on Fran but Kris is a better player than Patrick right now. Patrick has come a long way this year, but at 6-9 he's still only a 2-3 rebound game a guy. Why can he not play that position more? It would certainly help us defensively and on the boards. Is what it is, the team has outpaced where most thought they would be this year.
 

jonesy5960

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Some of your points I agree with. Except this - what do you say when he's fouled out with 5 minutes to play and you wish you had your 2nd best player on the court? Yes, I think he would be better off guarding the 3-4 type player. He can't effectively guard a 2 any more than he can effectively guard a 5. Someone has to guard the 5. Don't give me JO because he can't for any length of time. Rebraca is too small. Keegan - of course not because you can't have him out of position defensively because of his value to the team. Who does that leave? Connor? Like I said, if you want to blame Fran for something it could be roster construction. Though I think having Nunge may have helped here too.

All I ever pointed out was his fouling leads to reduced minutes like it does for any other player. I also said give him a year to get better before he goes to the league. How sinful! The reason he is getting fouls is irrelevant to my point. The fact is he is and that limits playing time. Playing with 4 fouls the player becomes tentative. Five and you're gone and me like anyone else wants to see him on the court at the end of the game, not on the bench.

Amazing that you can have a discussion without childish comments and instantly attacking or mocking someone because their point(s) might be a little different than your own.
Not playing one your best players because he might get in foul trouble makes little or no sense. All it does is replace the possibility of lost minutes with the certainty of lost minutes by not playing him in the first place.

If Fran was truly concerned about players getting tentative with 4 fouls he wouldn't have a hard 2 foul hook that would have the exact same effect on players as soon as they picked up their first foul in the first half of every game.

I never attacked you or called you names. That would be childish and you would be projecting. Your premise that fouls and an inability to play effective defense are keeping Kris off the court is simply wrong. Again, I'm a metrics guy and Kris currently has the highest defensive rating in conference play on the team. We need defense and rebounding. That's what Kris brings.
 
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This is just something I was thinking about recently. It sounds kind of ridiculous at first (and maybe it is ridiculous), but obviously I think we all expect Keegan to be gone if he is projected to be a lottery pick. The thing is, Kris is an extremely good player too. He comes off the bench because he's great for that second unit, but I believe he would put up similar numbers to Keegan if he was featured in the same way. We've already seen him have multiple 20+ point games this season. Could he make the decision to pursue the NBA after this season along with his brother? I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility. What do y'all think?
Both will be back for one more year.

I think they want to leave for the NBA together.
 
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ChiPackHawk

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Not playing one your best players because he might get in foul trouble makes little or no sense. All it does is replace the possibility of lost minutes with the certainty of lost minutes by not playing him in the first place.

If Fran was truly concerned about players getting tentative with 4 fouls he wouldn't have a hard 2 foul hook that would have the exact same effect on players as soon as they picked up their first foul in the first half of every game.

I never attacked you or called you names. That would be childish and you would be projecting. Your premise that fouls and an inability to play effective defense are keeping Kris off the court is simply wrong. Again, I'm a metrics guy and Kris currently has the highest defensive rating in conference play on the team. We need defense and rebounding. That's what Kris brings.
He's not playing him more minutes because he "might" get into foul trouble - it's because he 'is" in foul trouble. And I would suggest you take a look at who mocked who first.
 

RocknRollface

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Literally all I was ever trying to point out that it is a factor.
It's a solid point, he does foul too much. No one was denying that.

But you seemed to be saying it was the primary reason.

Your point is valid but its also valid to say Fran probably doesn't view him as the 2nd best player even though statistically he is.

Fran also doesn't seem to have faith in playing small. Hes usually trended twoards playing bigger whenever possible.
 

KcTo

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Hes not good enough to start on this team?

You've stated repeatedly hes the second best player.

I doubt Kris will go on a borderline first round evaluation which is where I'm guessing he'll be.

He would most likely want to come back to improve that.
A. If Kris is the 2nd best player on this team, he‘d be starting and getting > 20m a game.

B. Kris isn’t in the top 100 this year or top 125 next year. Kristian Lander, Omar Payne, Brandon Podziemski, Andre Curbelo., JaLen hood schifiano all BIG players are all listed ahead of Kris, even Xavier Foster..

is it that everyone thinks the exact same thing will happen to kris like it did for Keegan?
 

Maddux04

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Keegan is ready and should go. I don't think Kris needs another year, but I hope he comes back. They are both two way players with all of the intangibles that NBA teams look for in the draft.
 

littlez

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A. If Kris is the 2nd best player on this team, he‘d be starting and getting > 20m a game.

B. Kris isn’t in the top 100 this year or top 125 next year. Kristian Lander, Omar Payne, Brandon Podziemski, Andre Curbelo., JaLen hood schifiano all BIG players are all listed ahead of Kris, even Xavier Foster..

is it that everyone thinks the exact same thing will happen to kris like it did for Keegan?
Who would you say is the 2nd best player on the team?
 
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