HUGE....any changes have to be simple. Less judgement is better. Make it easy on the refs.
While we're waiting for wrestling to resume, let's change some rules
- Thread starter artradley
- Start date
HUGE....any changes have to be simple. Less judgement is better. Make it easy on the refs.
I bring a newbie wrestling viewer to carver for first time, let’s call him Bill.....
Bill: why’d the ref stop and raise his fist when they went outside the circle?
Me: oh that’s because the other guy didnt circle back to the center of the mat. They call stalling if a guy flees the mat or doesn’t circle back.
Bill: Stalling, that’s when the guy doesn’t try to wrestle right?
Me: right
Bill: so why wouldn’t our guy just try and push him out every time. That’d be a lot of stall points wouldn’t it?
Me: no. If our guy pushes him out and doesn’t let him back in, it’s stalling on our guy.
Bill: huh?
-silence-
Me: wanna grab me an ice cream cone?
Bill: yup
.....in the year 2065, the ncaa finally puts in place the push out rule cause decisions in wrestling happen at 1/10th the speed of actual time.....
Aaron (Bill has become a professional cornhole fan): hey why’d the ref hold up a finger when they went out of bounds?
Me: that’s one point our guy for pushing the other guy out of bounds.
Aaron: gotcha
Bill: why’d the ref stop and raise his fist when they went outside the circle?
Me: oh that’s because the other guy didnt circle back to the center of the mat. They call stalling if a guy flees the mat or doesn’t circle back.
Bill: Stalling, that’s when the guy doesn’t try to wrestle right?
Me: right
Bill: so why wouldn’t our guy just try and push him out every time. That’d be a lot of stall points wouldn’t it?
Me: no. If our guy pushes him out and doesn’t let him back in, it’s stalling on our guy.
Bill: huh?
-silence-
Me: wanna grab me an ice cream cone?
Bill: yup
.....in the year 2065, the ncaa finally puts in place the push out rule cause decisions in wrestling happen at 1/10th the speed of actual time.....
Aaron (Bill has become a professional cornhole fan): hey why’d the ref hold up a finger when they went out of bounds?
Me: that’s one point our guy for pushing the other guy out of bounds.
Aaron: gotcha
They must first eliminate the stalling call when an aggressive guy pushes the other guy out and he gets dinged for not letting the other man circle back in.
Leg rides just like any top ride should be 5 count called stalling unless you are working toward getting backs or breaking a man down. Once a man is broken down there should be an attempt to improve your position for points. Upon stalling automatic neutral position and one point given.
If you are legitimately trying a power half or something towards scoring while riding single or double boots then let the match continue.
A takedown should be 3 points Also. There needs to be more than a one point difference when a guy gets a takedown and then lets other guy up.
Leg rides just like any top ride should be 5 count called stalling unless you are working toward getting backs or breaking a man down. Once a man is broken down there should be an attempt to improve your position for points. Upon stalling automatic neutral position and one point given.
If you are legitimately trying a power half or something towards scoring while riding single or double boots then let the match continue.
A takedown should be 3 points Also. There needs to be more than a one point difference when a guy gets a takedown and then lets other guy up.
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Push out 1 point - just like freestyle.
First takedown 2 points every takedown after 3 points.
First takedown 2 points every takedown after 3 points.
Overhaul change(s):
2 periods only, both are 3 minutes with a 30 second break in between to speak with coaches (Freestyle rules here essentially), both periods are started in neutral.
Takedowns are worth 2, escapes are worth 1, reverse is worth 2. If a stalemate would be called or action goes out of bounds either during the TD sequence or while "mat wrestling" then both wrestlers restart on their feet and no escape is awarded. Stalemates to be called more often if it does not appear anyone is going to be turned or if legs come in, side headlock is put on, etc..
Step outs are a stall call with the only exception being if one person earns their escape near the oob line and then they are forced out, this is the only time an action call is to occur, otherwise it is the first person to step a full point OOB who receives the stall call. Stalling is a warning and then 1 point for each subsequent stall call.
Riding time is still 1 point but obviously harder to get with neutral resets.
Nearfall works the same as it currently does.
OT is one minute only first to score wins. One wrestler will have criteria going into OT and that is whoever scored the first point. If it is somehow 0-0 then flip a coin and the winner has criteria. First score still wins but if no scores occur then the individual with criteria wins the match. I believe first point scored for criteria will encourage action earlier and the 6 minute match time will keep guys engaged more often.
Thoughts?
2 periods only, both are 3 minutes with a 30 second break in between to speak with coaches (Freestyle rules here essentially), both periods are started in neutral.
Takedowns are worth 2, escapes are worth 1, reverse is worth 2. If a stalemate would be called or action goes out of bounds either during the TD sequence or while "mat wrestling" then both wrestlers restart on their feet and no escape is awarded. Stalemates to be called more often if it does not appear anyone is going to be turned or if legs come in, side headlock is put on, etc..
Step outs are a stall call with the only exception being if one person earns their escape near the oob line and then they are forced out, this is the only time an action call is to occur, otherwise it is the first person to step a full point OOB who receives the stall call. Stalling is a warning and then 1 point for each subsequent stall call.
Riding time is still 1 point but obviously harder to get with neutral resets.
Nearfall works the same as it currently does.
OT is one minute only first to score wins. One wrestler will have criteria going into OT and that is whoever scored the first point. If it is somehow 0-0 then flip a coin and the winner has criteria. First score still wins but if no scores occur then the individual with criteria wins the match. I believe first point scored for criteria will encourage action earlier and the 6 minute match time will keep guys engaged more often.
Thoughts?
I once went to a BB game in the fieldhouse when Jud Heathcoate slowed down the game b/c he knew the Spartans could not keep up with the Hawks. They played keepaway in the first half, and at halftime we led 11-8.
The NCAA installed a shot clock not long after that, and BB is now one of the country's most popular sports -- they play the Final 4 in football stadiums.
Inferior wrestlers use rideouts to keep the match close. If fans wanted that changed, the NCAA would do just that. Rant over.
The NCAA installed a shot clock not long after that, and BB is now one of the country's most popular sports -- they play the Final 4 in football stadiums.
Inferior wrestlers use rideouts to keep the match close. If fans wanted that changed, the NCAA would do just that. Rant over.
Trying to make folkstyle wrestling more like international would only be a positive although traditionalist would disagree.
Our Olympic contenders are at a disadvantage when having to take years off to adapt and implementing some changes would definitely help.
Meet in the middle on changes , push out rule and losing a challenge would be first two I'd change both would help our sport.
Allowing riding time to stay but if a guys not working towards the fall warning first/ restart neutral and if it happens again award stalling points. The amount of time should be close to 15-30 seconds to again get guys wrestling and closer to international rules.
Our Olympic contenders are at a disadvantage when having to take years off to adapt and implementing some changes would definitely help.
Meet in the middle on changes , push out rule and losing a challenge would be first two I'd change both would help our sport.
Allowing riding time to stay but if a guys not working towards the fall warning first/ restart neutral and if it happens again award stalling points. The amount of time should be close to 15-30 seconds to again get guys wrestling and closer to international rules.
very respectfully I want to push back.
Honestly, not calling you out.
The brands won world titles right out of college season. John smith won worlds as a Jr in college. Lee just smoked guys who concentrate on freestyle. Yes they are different but takedowns are take downs. Exposure and stuff add risk but they are not that far apart.
the Russians were training their guys from a young age intensively with the equivalent of RTC’s. We just started that.
folk style is a truly American style and has great value. Why would we scrape it? Where we suck os Greco. We are years behind the world in Greco so I can see that. Freestyle is take down and tilt. Basically college wrestling without the real option of escape. (Oversimplified).
I think our issue is we focus on the wrong techniques during development. The top countries use a wide variety of attacks and we tend to teach a more formula type style in the younger guys. Americans don’t place the value on throws. Even that only comes out in Greco.
slight differences in finishes on shots but I have not seen a European high crotch that is really different from USA. I think the folk vs free debate is a rationalization. Our truly committed guys have done well. It has been, up until recently, our kid level has been under trained.
my 2 cents.
WNBA is a different sport as it’s played below the rim. I don’t think I see a demonstrable difference in quality between men’s/women’s wrestling. The hard part would be duals become 50% longer which may be a logistical nightmare.
There are exceptions but both Brands actually took time for freestyle as did Barry Davis and others. Lee is an exception but the purpose would be for all wrestler's... not just some. The Russians have been dominating the sport as long as I've been alive and that's along time.
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I would try to make reversals more valuable. Right now when you reverse someone, it has the same net gain if you just get the escape.
One of the advantages to reversing someone rather than just escaping is to bring riding time down, or potentially not letting the other person get back up. Also, if reversals were more valuable, you could get into potential situations where someone is willing to give up a TD because they know that they can then go for a reversal and be in a better position than if they had gotten the TD themselves
Summary of what I’ve liked from the suggestions:
- 1 point push out
- Double boots same as grabbing ankle - 5 count
- 2 points first take down, 3 for additional td’s
Not convinced on anything for riding time yet but sure seems something needs to change
However, the change to 4 pt back points put the emphasis on how important turning someone is. Can you just remove the riding time.
With the points above:
- If I’m Spencer, I don’t care about riding time, just back points.
- If I’m Desanto, I don’t care about turns, but the 3-1 takedown is very attractive!
- 1 point push out
- Double boots same as grabbing ankle - 5 count
- 2 points first take down, 3 for additional td’s
Not convinced on anything for riding time yet but sure seems something needs to change
However, the change to 4 pt back points put the emphasis on how important turning someone is. Can you just remove the riding time.
With the points above:
- If I’m Spencer, I don’t care about riding time, just back points.
- If I’m Desanto, I don’t care about turns, but the 3-1 takedown is very attractive!
Why not 3 points for first takedown and 2 from then on? An incentive to get the first takedown might create earlier action instead of just dancing around in the first period.
Not wanting to get rid of all reviews, but the time spent to review needs to be limited... maybe say within a minute. Unbelieveable how long some reviews have gone on.... 10 minutes or more.
Also penalize the guy requesting review, if it turns out the original call was incorrect.
consolidating two ideas previous posted:
1 point awarded to opponent for lost challenge - like freestyle.
1 point push out rule - like freestyle.
And, no OT, do it just like freestyle:
Wrestler with highest scoring maneuver(s), if the same, then
last point scored etc.
1 point awarded to opponent for lost challenge - like freestyle.
1 point push out rule - like freestyle.
And, no OT, do it just like freestyle:
Wrestler with highest scoring maneuver(s), if the same, then
last point scored etc.
I'm all for these and have pushed for the push out for years. It truly is a no brainer.
Double boots getting a 5 count is awesome.
All I can tell you is from my own personal perspective I have little desire to watch Women's Wrestling. If I had to spend an extra hour for a coed dual, I'm not going. Pretty sure I'm not a party of one.
God bless the ladies that want to partake. Just not my cup of tea.
I’m not sure this would hurt high school dual attendance. College? You’re 100% right. Wouldn’t work. In high school? With the amount of forfeits, quick pins, etc? It may not take as long as we think.
Have a 30 sec. leg ride rule, counted by 2nd ref. Then they both go back to standing position unless there is a count for pinning position.
Also, if the bottom man stands up, the ref. starts the five count just like holding on to a leg or ankle.
And the biggest rule is to set a 1 min. time rule on reviews. Right or wrong get the god damm thing called and lets go!!!!
Also, if the coach throws the brick and it isn't overturned then 1 point against his man..??
I'm pretty sure there is such a thing as a stop watch the 2nd ref can have to make the correct calls on the ones needing a timed call....
1 minute sudden victory OT-then revert back to criteria(highest point awarded, down to 1st point scored). This needs to be expressed before OT begins, so everyone knows where they stand. 1st point scored will affect choice in 2nd and 3rd period. I would be ok with accrued riding time being the 2nd criteria.
All "non-grounded" OOB needs to be a stall call---never on the man with his back to the middle.
Penalize unfounded challenges.
All "non-grounded" OOB needs to be a stall call---never on the man with his back to the middle.
Penalize unfounded challenges.
My rule change: jettison folkstyle altogether. Play by freestyle rules all the time, BUT, maybe in high school, force top man to break and re-establish his hold after every back exposure...too many high school matches would be less than a minute long if the top man could roll 4 times with the same gut wrench/leglace/whatever
When the bottom guy is standing when they go out of bounds, this would be an escape.
I'm tired of the top guy running the bottom guy oob as soon as he starts to lose control.
I'm tired of the top guy running the bottom guy oob as soon as he starts to lose control.
Figure 4 on a leg and double boots leg stall rides annoy the crap out of me, they can go away. I could probably be on board with the push out because some of the calls being made on backing off the mat are stupid, if a guy is truly being pushed off vs backing off there should be some resistance but dudes are going right off the mat giving no resistance and they call stalling on the other guy. If you back off because the other guy is taking mat territory then you are stalling, either make the effort to circle or stand your ground.
I would not ban leg riding. What needs to change is the interpretation. Any parallel ride without putting the bottom wrestler in a danger position is stalling. Leg riding has changed over the past 30 years. It used be a cross body ride. One leg in and both arms over the back thus CROSS BODY!. Today's leg ride is a parallel ride with guys working double unders and looking to put in a second leg. Double legs is a parallel ride. The official gave you 10 seconds or so work a turn then called a stalemate. The second time it was called stalling top man. Today the bottom guy is hit with stalling. It is efing maddening.
Get rid of riding time and escape points. Only reason to ride is to go for back points, otherwise its just humping. If they don't get rid of escape points, then a takedown needs to be worth 3, or at least the first takedown.
Its really bad if a guy gets a takedown, gives up an escape, gets another takedown, gives up another escape, opponent gets escape next period and then oppenent gets takedown at end of next period. So wrestler is down 5-4 despite having 2 takedowns to one. Then opponent does a stall ride and gets a riding time point, so even if wrestler gets escape, he loses despite getting more takedowns.
Some may call it mat wrestling, but I call it boring. Riding to punish the guy and turn the guy is one thing. My rules wouldn't stop that--so I'm not converting it to freestyle rules. No one would take down anymore. They would take top or neutral. I would get rid of all escape points, but at minimum, get rid of escape points for neutral takedowns. Even if the powers that be didn't want to get rid of riding time (which is subjective), if you get rid of escape points, no one would ever take down, and that would be good.
I don't want folkstyle to become Sumo, so not sure about pushouts, but so sick of guys with heels one foot from the out of bounds and using out of bounds to their advantage, so I think you need to have a point after pushouts--like pushout warnings. Winners should be determined by actual wrestling and not guys evading great takedowns by sliding out of bounds
Its really bad if a guy gets a takedown, gives up an escape, gets another takedown, gives up another escape, opponent gets escape next period and then oppenent gets takedown at end of next period. So wrestler is down 5-4 despite having 2 takedowns to one. Then opponent does a stall ride and gets a riding time point, so even if wrestler gets escape, he loses despite getting more takedowns.
Some may call it mat wrestling, but I call it boring. Riding to punish the guy and turn the guy is one thing. My rules wouldn't stop that--so I'm not converting it to freestyle rules. No one would take down anymore. They would take top or neutral. I would get rid of all escape points, but at minimum, get rid of escape points for neutral takedowns. Even if the powers that be didn't want to get rid of riding time (which is subjective), if you get rid of escape points, no one would ever take down, and that would be good.
I don't want folkstyle to become Sumo, so not sure about pushouts, but so sick of guys with heels one foot from the out of bounds and using out of bounds to their advantage, so I think you need to have a point after pushouts--like pushout warnings. Winners should be determined by actual wrestling and not guys evading great takedowns by sliding out of bounds
I would like to get rid of alternating starting positions in the 2nd and 3rd periods.
Whoever scored more points in the previous period decides how they start the next period. This rewards scoring points and being active. if no score, ten the ref flips for who decides. Makes the matches more unpredictable.
This will gets rid of those 1-1 overtime matches. If you want to win you have to score points.
Whoever scored more points in the previous period decides how they start the next period. This rewards scoring points and being active. if no score, ten the ref flips for who decides. Makes the matches more unpredictable.
This will gets rid of those 1-1 overtime matches. If you want to win you have to score points.
After a 30 second ride either guy can elect to start neutral without bottom guy getting escape point.
For each 30 second ride, award a Riding Time Point (not an actual point); rather than a 1 minute RT advantage, who ever has the most RT points at the end gets the bonus Point.
Not sure I am even sold on this one, but what if teams got two possible entrants into conference- and potentially national -tourneys. Probably only have one scorer still (?).
Iowa would probably benefit most this year, be could very well end up being a 'rich get richer' situation, but would love to see backups get more of a chance to show what they can do. At the very least, I'd love to have JV or exhibition matches as part of the dual meets
For each 30 second ride, award a Riding Time Point (not an actual point); rather than a 1 minute RT advantage, who ever has the most RT points at the end gets the bonus Point.
Not sure I am even sold on this one, but what if teams got two possible entrants into conference- and potentially national -tourneys. Probably only have one scorer still (?).
Iowa would probably benefit most this year, be could very well end up being a 'rich get richer' situation, but would love to see backups get more of a chance to show what they can do. At the very least, I'd love to have JV or exhibition matches as part of the dual meets
A lot of people want the push out rule but how would it work with mat wrestling? What if you get an escape out of bounds? What if you get an escape one inch from the circle and the top guy can easily push you out. I would hate a rule that would discourage the bottom guy from escaping based on location on the mat and it could allow the top guy to find ways to get easy points. FWIW - I love the push out rule in freestyle.
I think losing a challenge should result in losing a point. Let’s eliminate some of this lung timeout bs.
In the eighties it seemed like they called stalling or stalemated for double boots; the ref knew when the wrestler was stalling verse breaking a guy down for a turn. He would most times verbal to do something with it. Cross body ride was similar in that it was never an issue, because the ref stalemated. We practiced in the room how to either not let the boots get in or spin into the single leg. I like that part of folk style.
Escape rewarded - reset in the middle....also okie state would need a mat larger than a closet
