Who is a the Hawkeyes gonna git ?
- Thread starter IowaNiceHawk
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It's actually a great way. Even better than the stars. All these kids are being evaluated every weekend with several college coaches watching. So they have a crap load of coaches watching and McCaffrey is the only power 5 school to offer. Some kids fly under the radar of course and some bloom late, no doubt. However, when Paul Rhoads coached Iowa State he would get commits from kids who were not being recruited by power 5 schools and they would almost always suck. However, he got some 2 and 3 star kids who were being offered by power 5 schools and they almost always were at least in the two deep. So yeah offers from other school are a good way to tell how good a player will be.
Check your 2015 recruits and see who all offered those kids. I think that was the year Moss was the last one remaining that made it to graduate.
There were other very good coaches who did offer. You are ignoring that. Not all P5 coaches are great at evaluating HS talent/potential.
Andrew Fleming had offers from Auburn, Florida, and Memphis in 2015 and is going to be graduating as a non-contributor from Lipscomb. Devyn Marble’s best non-Iowa offer was Buffalo, and he was drafted to the Orlando Magic. Sure, there is often a correlation between offers and talent, but not something to make an absolute judgement on
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Iowa lists Joe on their roster now at 6'0" 170 whereas on his commitment date he was listed at 5'10" 170. Someone earlier mentioned on here that Joe looked taller than 5'10".
Some schools may have downgraded Joe based on his previous height and perhaps he has grown 2 inches since his commitment to Iowa.
Some schools may have downgraded Joe based on his previous height and perhaps he has grown 2 inches since his commitment to Iowa.
As noted, most Hawkeye fans don't expect JoeT to come in and immediately be All-B1G or even get huge minutes. What we see is some skills and athleticism that have been missing on the team for several years. I have no idea how you could watch his tapes and say he isn't that quick. He seems to have an ability to break his man down and go to the basket pretty damn well, although D1 college competition is going to make that a lot more challenging. Better yet, Iowa might finally have a PG who has the quickness to play some tough on-ball defense, which we haven't had since Mike G and Sapp graduated. I would guess JoeT's height and shooting, which I can't evaluate on tape, are why he isn't a more highly recruited player. I trust Fran's judgment, and as mentioned, WSU and Dayton are top programs with coaches, who know what they are doing.
We will all see this fall. If JoeT is a hit, we are good at PG for 4 years, and either way, Fran is after several quality PGs in the next couple of classes. I personally like the idea of getting a player who can play PG at least every other year. It is great to have 3+ on the team in different classes, and as long as at least one can shoot and one has length, playing them together only makes your team better.
Something I think that is glossed over when evaluating the speed aspect of a lead guard is, not only are they quick but can they change speeds in an effective manner. It’s not always how quick you are but also how well you can deceive the defender and get them out of position for play making purposes. They guys who are deceptive in this nature and have excellent court vision and b-ball IQ are usually special playmakers.
JoeT looks to have a nice ability to change speeds and can even get his shot off while doing so. When he first committed these aspects were still developing and I didn’t recognize them so prevalently. He has grown a bit, gotten stronger and also improved his offense. All three of those things happening at once in relatively short time for a prospect rarely happens. Fran found a good one thus far, and might have struck gold. We will see I guess. Fun times ahead.
JoeT looks to have a nice ability to change speeds and can even get his shot off while doing so. When he first committed these aspects were still developing and I didn’t recognize them so prevalently. He has grown a bit, gotten stronger and also improved his offense. All three of those things happening at once in relatively short time for a prospect rarely happens. Fran found a good one thus far, and might have struck gold. We will see I guess. Fun times ahead.
this topic was discussed quite a bit at the time and since 2015, its questionable at best that Fleming actually had the offers he was reporting, including but not limited to Florida, Auburn and Memphis. I've always believed his 'final list' was almost entirely made up of schools that he couldn't realistically commit to. As for Marble, one might argue Dayton and Providence were his best offers outside of Iowa, but I get you point.
Looking at what offers a kid legitimately has is a good barometer for skill level, but doesn't always tell the entire story as kids are often overlooked and develop later in life.
As for Toussaint, regardless of his offer list, pretty excited to see him join the team next year, it will be nice to have three players that can legitimately man the point guard position. Additionally, he should help defend the point guard position and make it a bit more challenging for opposing teams to penetrate into the lane, which they've done with relative ease for quite a while. Its too bad Cook won't be around to benefit from Joe's ability to distribute, but don't blame him for trying to kickstart his pro career.
I don’t really remember those discussions so maybe you are right.
That said, as you acknowledged (which is appreciated), I could have used any two different players to help make the same point. One could say there is often a correlation between offers and collegiate success, but coming to an Iowa board and downplaying a recruit based solely/primarily off his offers isn’t a good play.
per rivals looks like he had offers from Wichita St., UNLV, UMASS, Dayton among other NE mid majors, don't recall who his finalist were though? Per an article I just came across, looks like Toussaint averaged 20.2pts per game this past season while earining co-players of the year in boys Class AA basketball in the state of New York. author mentioned Joe 'applying unrelenting pressure on defense'.
http://newyorksportswriters.org/blo...basketball-all-state-team-large-schools.shtml
https://www.desmoinesregister.com/s...on-drake-uni-toledo-indiana-state/3680174002/
Iowa and Creighton are the two high-major programs most involved with Born at the moment, although Boston College kept an eye on him in Dallas.
Creighton visited Born at school on May 2, and he visited campus twice this year.
"They’re just kind of staying in touch, just seeing where things go," Born said. "Obviously I like them a lot. I’ve been up there a few times for visits, being able to play with those guys. I like the campus, I like the players and the coaching staff."
Iowa began contacting Born more toward the end of his stellar junior season, in which he averaged 27.8 points and 3.8 assists per game while draining 79 3-pointers. Born said his main contact is assistant coach Kirk Speraw.
Exactly. As someone who thinks of Fran just above the “meh” level, the way some of the people talk about Fran’s coaching, recruiting, etc., you would think Iowa has been at a sub-Licklighter level.
These are usually the same people that don’t like the questioning of players like Moss.
Players like Suggs are a dream, but Fran is due to land one of these guys, who could really put the program in an upward trajectory. Having one or two guys overachieve versus their recruiting rankings (like Nunge or Joe T) would also help. We have a stud in JoeW, and need a couple more to really make Iowa a top team.
I like Wieskamp a lot but Fran has put him in the same position he has put his other best players in with respect to not having enough talent around him. With Bohannon out, Moss and Cook gone, who do teams have to worry about?
We have seen Bohannon get hounded incessantly the last 2 years and I suspect the same will happen to Wieskamp this year. He has a really nice game, but is going to get a lot more attention from defenses this year. Fran has done his usual poor job of putting other scorers on the floor so we are banking on Frederick, Connor, Touissant and Nunge. Pretty sad for a coach in his 10th year.
What? Putting scorers on the floor really hasn't been the issue for Fran.
Joe W better get used to attention on the court if he wants to play in the association. No matter what, he needs to be a big time player for us and if that includes leading the team in assists, so be it.
After his HS career, you don't think that he is used to this? He was probably relieved that he had at least one year of relative anonymity, but he knows that won't last.
I think Joe T. will be a good one, but people will need to be a bit patient while he gets used to the speed of the college game.
How do you know Frederick, Touissant, and Nunge won’t be better scoring options then Cook and Moss? Those two were hardly reliable or efficient scorers. The also have arguably there most efficient and versatile scorer back in Garza. And I’m pretty sure Fran couldn’t have predicted Bohannon would need hip surgery. Like TCOOL said, scoring has rarely been an issue for Fran’s teams.
Especially when we know he envisions making the NBA. He probably is going to welcome that added responsibility and attention.
The way I look at it is....Joe T. should be hoping JoBo is ready to play!! They will never leave JoBo to help on D. Therefore Joe T can take his guy to the hole and get fouled to make free throws!! After he takes care of business then he can kick it out later! To CJ/Jack N. /Joe W. /JoBo last but not least!!!
It's a little soon to be rooting for Joe T to be shooing FTs. He has a lot of work to do in that area.
I prefer he take it to the hole and score. If he gets fouled on the way, that's a bonus.
Joe T looks to have a decent stroke, so hopefully that can be coached up.
One thing I noticed following his last season., is that his coaches had Joe taking the last shot. He nailed quite a few. No idea how many he missed. But they obviously trusted him to be the man. That's a good thing.
I can say with confidence Nunge won't be close to Cook because he is not on the same planet athletically as Cook. What did Nunge show in his freshman year other than being too slow, not having a position and not wanting to play inside? Fran has experimented with packing pounds on guys and none have worked. The odds of Frederick being Oglesby, Ellingson or Fleming are higher than him being Bohannon. Touissant is the one guy who could surprise, but he is also the most likely to be a one year guy and transfer out if Iowa has the kind of season I suspect they will have with 16 or 17 wins and maybe an NIT invite.
I didn’t realize athleticism was the end-all, be-all to being a good basketball player. You answered your own question - Nunge had an erratic Freshman year because he was too slow because he was playing out of position and not playing inside. Well now, it sounds like he has adjusted and changed his game and approach by taking a redshirt year to play the position he is a better fit for and better fits his skills.
For not being on the same planet athletically, from day one Nunge offers something defensively that Cook never did, which is a shot blocking presence inside. For as great an athlete that Cook was , he was a very mediocre (at best) defender who often did not give max effort on that end if he wasn’t engaged or playing well offensively. Also, Nunge offers something offensively on day one that Cook did not, which is the ability to score outside of 5 feet from the basket.
They will be different players with different strengths but just because Cook is the better athlete doesn’t mean that Nunge isn’t more skilled in other ways.
As far as Frederick being more like the guys you mentioned then like Bohannon - there is not any way you can know that. That’s just wishful thinking on your part. You have zero idea.
Also, I hope Toussaint is the real deal but again you saying he “is the only guy that could surprise” is ridiculous. You don’t have any idea other then your wishful thinking.
If Bohannon doesn’t play this coming year, then my prediction might change (after seeing the team play some non-conference games without him) but if he’s back and healthy, I still don’t see why a similar record and NCAA berth wouldn’t be realistic next year. You have continually over-emphasized what Moss brought to the table and while Cook was a good player, he had a number of flaws in his game. Having him be the centerpiece was often counter-productive to the team and that was proven in a number of games last year when he was not.
Fair points and I appreciate the thoughtful response vs. name calling. Cook was a next-level the likes of which Iowa seldom gets. Nunge is not. I saw nothing from Nunge in his freshman year to make me think he wants to, or has the ability, to be an inside presence. Not sure how you instill that in a guy, but I hope you are right.
I don't think Moss brought that much to the table and believe he should have been recruited over or at least pushed for his minutes two years ago. Fran opted to stick with him and got him a 5th year transfer out. Now he rolls the dice with Frederick who looks like a nice player but needs to be much more dynamic than Bohannon if the guard play is going to improve. Can he drive it? Can he create his own shot? Can he guard? He needs to be able to do all 3 better than Moss if he is going to be an upgrade.
I am not sure how you can refute that a: athleticism doesn't matter and b: that Iowa doesn't have a gap in this area. Every announcer says the same things "Iowa doesn't have the quick guards other teams do" and "Cook is the only guy has that creates match up problems for the other team with his athleticism". There is a reason Iowa can't play man and it's not because we lack a defensive guru on the bench...it's lack of athleticism on the court.
I agree that the experiment to use Nunge at 3 was a failure, but I don't think that tells us much about what to expect from him next year. Fran tried to use Nunge at 3 because, as a true freshman, he already had more ball skills and athleticism than the other bigs, and there was no true 3. I saw flashes of skills, shooting and defending the basket. Our opinions couldn't be much more different, but we won't know for a few months.
Cook is an elite athlete, but you are greatly overstating what he brought to the floor most of the time. Except for a couple of wow plays, in most games, he was not a great basketball player (except maybe the second half of his last game). There have been dozens of threads debating this, and there is no reason to have another series of posts bashing Tyler, who was a big part of the team.
Good points. To be clear I am not claiming Cook was a fabulous all around player. Some of this is on Cook and some of it is on Fran. Compare Cook to Wesson at OSU. When OSU made shots and Wesson had room to operate he looked great. When they were cold and teams could collapse on him he looked awful. Same with Cook.
People bash Cook for showboating while ignoring the comments Fran made all season about "Wanting Tyler to create and make plays for others". Clearly some of Cook forcing the issue was orchestrated by Fran. Cook could win 1:1 match ups when not being bracketed by 2 defenders which gave Iowa a guy who could get his own shot with / without the offense. I don't see Nunge being able to out-quick anyone to the rim and flush it so he better have developed a Nowitzki-like game with lots of space creating moves.
Very good and fair post on your end as well. I don’t refute that athleticism matters and I do agree there appears to be a gap there for Iowa. I probably didn’t do a great job of making my point. I agree that Iowa’s overall lack of athleticism is a major part of their defensive issues. I guess my point was that even with those better athletes - Cook and Moss - their athleticism didn’t really seem to add much to making that defense better not were either reliable one-on-one defensive players.
For as great of an athlete that Cook is, he didn’t challenge shots and he was mediocre at best defensively most of the time. He also was prone to standing around watching on defense and didn’t appear to always give max effort on that end, especially when he was struggling offensively. I will add that while his rebound numbers look decent, I watched him get outworked and stand flat-footed and jumped over quite often when rebounding. He wasn’t a bad rebounder but with his athleticism - and if he really wanted to be - he could have been a great rebounder.
Same issues with Moss. He showed flashes defensively but was very inconsistent (in his whole game really). People will point to his steals but he got burnt just as often and did not have great court-awareness. I don’t know if Frederick is better, but in my opinion it’s not going to take much to at least match what he brought to the table overall. You are right, he should have been recruited over or lost even more minutes a few years ago and that is one of Fran’s biggest misses the last few years. I feel like the threshold to match what Moss did is pretty low and if Frederick or a Transfer can’t at least hit that, then Iowa will be in trouble.
Agree on Fran obviously encouraging Cook, at least earlier in the year, to take the approach he did. I feel like in the early Big Ten season, Fran pulled back the reigns on Cook and we saw the offense be more efficient (at least for a while) when running more through Wieskamp and Garza and less with Cook dominating the call. That’s what gives me optimism for this coming year. After that point is when it also seemed Cook’s effort and confidence went down and affected his consistency.
As Houston said, I think it’s really hard to gauge how Nunge will look next year compared to two years ago. He was playing out of position and his body was much different then it is now. I think it’s fair to say Nunge’s positives and negatives are opposite of what Cook’s were in a lot of ways. I think the offense will look different and what I’m hoping to see offensively is that Nunge will make up for not being as athletic as Cook by being able to spread the floor much more thanks to his far superior shooting. If Garza or Pemsl are in with Nunge, I’d like to see those two on the low blocks and Nunge being at high post or running pick-and-role with Nunge being open on the wing after setting the pick for a jumper. I just expect (hope) that Nunge’s shooting ability will open the floor more then Cook could.
Also, I think Wieskamp with NBA feedback and a year of college experience and off-season will be much better at driving, pulling up, and creating for others, which will help the better shooting of Nunge to get some nice looks. And it’s safe to assume that Toussaint will be able to get in the lane more then Bohannon (what he will do once he does we don’t know) and I can’t see Frederick being any worse then Moss getting in the lane and scoring because Moss was terrible at finishing drives (often turning it over) and often didn’t want to go to the hole (his best offensive games was when he got hit in the perimeter).
