Why Does Trump Oppose Helping Ukraine?

[Hawk_82]

Their invasion added Finland and Sweden to NATO. If they were worried about more border with NATO they royally miscalculated.

The real reason they are pissed is because they can't exert control over countries they used to. NATO was never going to invade Russia and those countries wouldn't want in NATO if Russia wasn't a giant piece of shit to them. NATO isn't holding a gun to these countries heads forcing them to join, they are joining because NATO and Europe are better military and economic options than Russia. If Russia doesn't want everyone to hate them they should consider looking inward.

There are over 40 countries who want to join the brics. Essentially it looks like the world is picking sides in preparation for an economic, political, and physical war.

I think the way the west is pushing a global government/ partnership has pushed Russia and China closer.

Sweden and Finland want to join nato because they don't want to be left out when shit hits the fan.

 

[globalhawk]

Ok but why do we have to play World Police all the time? That side of the world has had conflicts for thousands of years, let them figure it out. There is enough issues here money can go too

You act like because it is happening across the pond it won't affect us. That is insane.

 

[RileyHawk]

You wrote, “So you are willing to let Israel die on the vine,” as though Israel was not a sovereign nation with the duties that implies, but instead was a flower in our garden to tend and be responsible for.
Just not how I look at other countries from this one.

Or, more appropriately, an ally to support and defend.

My guess is your stance is such because you have no friends.

 

[RileyHawk]

I think Russia is acting reasonable for the threat they are encountering. They are threatened by Ukraine joining nato. No country wants enemy troops on their border.

If China was paying Mexico billions of dollars and sending weapons to put on the border, I don't think the usa would like that either.

Russia wants Crimea for access to the black sea and they want the rest of Ukraine to stay neutral.

Nato has chosen to pressure Russia by entertaining the idea of Ukraine joining nato. I think it's reasonable for Russia to fight back.

I don't think Russia is innocent though, I just think the usa and nato are the instigators in this conflict.

This is more bullshit from you. Russia wants to reunite the former Soviet Union. They are the enemy with troops on the border as well. And their wishes do not get to dictate who another sovereign nation determines to be their allies.

It's easy to tell you're a Trump stooge - Russia likes Trump and so what Russia wants they should get in your mind.

That you believe it's reasonable for Russia to invade Ukraine because they were considering NATO demonstrate exactly why your opinions are without reason.

 

[RileyHawk]

They’re manipulated as well.
It was known that expanded NATO to Ukraine could spark a civil war, and Russia would have to decide to intervene, or not.

If Kruschev ignored JFKs warnings and blockade, and tried to put Soviet bases in Cuba, would you say that the US was provoked to war in response, or just decided to go to war over Cuba because we were inherently militaristic and expansionist?

What nuclear weapons did Ukraine try to put within 300 miles of a major Russian city?

You come up with the most asinine comparisons.

 

[RileyHawk]

Cynical, yes - but overly cynical...?

The domino theory in Europe makes even less sense to me than the domino theory that justified the Vietnam war. Nor do I think risking nuclear war over Ukraine is a sensible plan to avoid nuclear war over Latvia.

That's NOT an argument for letting Russia take Ukraine. That's not what I'm saying.

What country would have to be invaded before you would support US intervention?

 

[RileyHawk]

The more interesting question might be why didn't Sweden and Finland want to join NATO previously? I don't know the answer to that one but I assume it's out there.

How much more at risk are they now than before the Ukraine war? What's actually changed for them?

None of the reasons why Russia attacked Ukraine seem to apply to Finland or Sweden. Neither has important resources Russia wants - as compared with Ukraine or their NATO neighbor Norway - and Sweden doesn't even share a border.

So why would they want to commit money, military, and manpower to become bit players in a military alliance mostly controlled by and benefiting the US?

So because Russia wants Ukrainian resources it makes the Russian invasion warranted? WTF kind of logic is that?

 

[RileyHawk]

The ‘ideology’ that the Vietnamese were sold on was independence. The communist stuff was so they could get help from that bloc after we sold them down the river to French colonialism after WW1 and WW2.

The Domino theory doesn’t apply to Ukraine because on the other side of Ukraine is NATO (read:US), which Russia is rightly afraid to go to war with.
Russia wants a buffer between it and NATO. That’s why its demands in Minsk I & II was for Donetsk and Luhansk to be in Ukraine, with a veto over NATO membership to keep the country neutral.

Of course they want that - why does that mean it should be so? Why does what Russia wants trump what Ukraine wants? Why are their demands more worthy than Ukraine or NATO countries?

Answer - they aren't. That you want their demands to be met above those of US allies demonstrates yet again what a shill you are for Russia.

 

[RileyHawk]

I don't see the difference. We claim that Putin wants more than Ukraine. We claimed that N.Vietnam and/or China and/or Russia wanted more than S.Vietnam. We were sure we were right then; we're sure we're right now.

A huge difference are the value of the resources Ukraine brings to the rest of the world. And the threat that their demise would present to our highly valued allies in Europe.

 

[RileyHawk]

There are over 40 countries who want to join the brics. Essentially it looks like the world is picking sides in preparation for an economic, political, and physical war.

I think the way the west is pushing a global government/ partnership has pushed Russia and China closer.

Sweden and Finland want to join nato because they don't want to be left out when shit hits the fan.

What a surprise.

WHICH NATIONS WANT TO JOIN BRICS AND WHY?​

Over 40 countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Argentina, Algeria, Bolivia, Indonesia, Egypt, Ethiopia, Cuba, Democratic Republic of Congo, Comoros, Gabon, and Kazakhstan have expressed interest in joining the forum, according to 2023 summit chair South Africa.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Russia will never give up.

Afghanistan is on line one.

 

[Tiny Hands Trump]

There are over 40 countries who want to join the brics. Essentially it looks like the world is picking sides in preparation for an economic, political, and physical war.

I think the way the west is pushing a global government/ partnership has pushed Russia and China closer.

Sweden and Finland want to join nato because they don't want to be left out when shit hits the fan.

Brics is so cool they can't even agree on a currency to use other than USD.

 

[IANDFAN]

He is certainly the best candidate on every issue other than Ukraine ... so I may have to. I still intend to vote for Haley next week in our primary.

The sexual predator and soon to be felon? That is your guy

 

[globalhawk]

Thankyou!

I may get killed for this and I want to be clear I do believe Putin is a scumbag, but what is he suppose to do? NATO has expanded during every US administration to the point where it's at his border. I think it was George W's presidency were launchers were sent or installed in Poland, constant talk of Ukraine joining. If Russia built weapons depots in Toronto we'd attack Canada in a heartbeat.

Point is take the damn deal.

It's okay for Russia to expand but not NATO? GTFO.

 

[TC Nole OX]

Anyone have a good take on this?

Will the GOP stall meaningful aid to Ukraine until Trump is back in office?

Can Ukraine survive if Trump wins?

TRUMP is a longtime Russian asset

 

[Tiny Hands Trump]

Russia is an ass backwards shithole country where half the population doesn't even have plumbing. Shocking eastern Europe wants nothing to do with them.

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

I think Russia is acting reasonable for the threat they are encountering. They are threatened by Ukraine joining nato. No country wants enemy troops on their border.

They are already bordered by Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Norway and Turkey. Lithuania is closer to Moscow than Kiev...

 

[globalhawk]

They are already bordered by Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Norway and Turkey. Lithuania is closer to Moscow than Kiev...

Just let them have Sudetenland.

 

[abby97]

Anyone have a good take on this?

Will the GOP stall meaningful aid to Ukraine until Trump is back in office?

Can Ukraine survive if Trump wins?

Why does Biden oppose protecting America from, drugs, criminals, terrorists and Chinese coming across our border?

Anyone have a good take on this?

 

[mthawkeyes]

I wonder why those countries want to join NATO? Russia is just so awesome and hasn't historically been a giant piece of shit to them.

This. Maybe if Putin hadn't been carving off pieces of Russia's neighbors, their other neighbors wouldn't be so anxious to join NATO.

 

[Tiny Hands Trump]

 

[billanole]

Did not know that.

Although if shit hits the fan it might be tough getting South Korea to work with Japan. I know they don't much like each other because of how Japan used to treat them during WW2 and the fact that a lot of Japanese refuse to even acknowledge it happened.

You must be too young to remember the North Viets kicking a bit of Chino ass at the tail end of our time in the Nam. China FAFO that the the North Viets were well trained and efficient at that point.

 

[auntie_fah]

ukraine and russia and china are all in kahoots together, all corrupt commies. everyone should oppose giving them money

do you still buy goods made in china?

 

[artradley]

Did he say that? Do you think that's a reasonable inference from what he said?

Yes, he did say that.

“I think Russia is acting reasonable for the threat they are encountering. They are threatened by Ukraine joining nato. No country wants enemy troops on their border.”

 

[globalhawk]

Yes, he did say that.

“I think Russia is acting reasonable for the threat they are encountering. They are threatened by Ukraine joining nato. No country wants enemy troops on their border.”

It's insane that we have people actually defending Russia here. There are 2 choices. Russia loses or Russia again borders the same countries (it already does with the Baltic nations) that is had under the Iron Curtain. I hope they are just too young to remember or haven't studied the Cold War. @ButtersHawk thinks that Russia has the right to be angry that NATO is on its doorstep but it's okay for Russia to border countries it overran.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

There are over 40 countries who want to join the brics. Essentially it looks like the world is picking sides in preparation for an economic, political, and physical war.

I think the way the west is pushing a global government/ partnership has pushed Russia and China closer.

Sweden and Finland want to join nato because they don't want to be left out when shit hits the fan.

Nice clean summary, and good point about BRICS.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Don't think us providing weapons and aid to Ukraine helping to defend themselves, and hopefully avert a future direct conflict with NATO involvement, without risking American soldiers is being world police. It is us taking a crowbar to the knees of the only country to threaten to kill us all and have the ability to do it for a fraction of the US defense budget.

I agree with your first sentence but don't know where the "the only country to threaten to kill us all" part comes from.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Ya, the negative interest rates and tariffs guy is best candidate for inflation.

And don't forget, there are still tax rates for the rich to be cut. That's the most important thing to do for America and the world, right?

If you think that's just hyperbole, remind yourself of what Trump and the GOP did in his first term. A massive tax giveaway that mostly benefited the rich was pretty much it.

If that was pretty much all they did last time, it seems reasonable to think that's pretty much all they cared about. Why would next time be different?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Yes, he did say that.

“I think Russia is acting reasonable for the threat they are encountering. They are threatened by Ukraine joining nato. No country wants enemy troops on their border.”

You said "So, everyone is responsible except Russia?"

I asked if @Hawk_82 said that.

What you just quoted does not say that.

 

[ottumwan in tx]

TRUMP is a longtime Russian asset

yeah that's been proven for sho

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

What a surprise.

WHICH NATIONS WANT TO JOIN BRICS AND WHY?​

Over 40 countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Argentina, Algeria, Bolivia, Indonesia, Egypt, Ethiopia, Cuba, Democratic Republic of Congo, Comoros, Gabon, and Kazakhstan have expressed interest in joining the forum, according to 2023 summit chair South Africa.

And your point is...?

I think it's worth pointing out that BRICS is an economic consortium while NATO is a military alliance.

We are driving lots of unaligned nations into alignment with China and Russia. Hard to see that as a good thing.

One thing to ponder is that we like to use economic sanctions to fight our enemies instead of going to war. But what happens when the sanctions we call for are rejected by a growing number of so-called Global South nations heading toward closer economic links with China, Russia and rising power India (which hardly anyone is talking about, but we should be)?

 

[prlyles]

We are 2 years in with no exit plan. At some point that side of the world needs to handle that side of the world's shit, we are not just a blank checkbook.

I get that we are getting away with a "cheap" war against Ukraine but its still a war.

Do you feel the same about Israel?

 

[artradley]

You said "So, everyone is responsible except Russia?"

I asked if @Hawk_82 said that.

What you just quoted does not say that.

Gimme a break. He blamed everyone even tangentially involved, and how they are all to blame. He then said Russia is not to blame.

So, yeah, he didn’t blame “everyone,”. Presumably Ethiopia is not to blame. But he did blame everyone involved. Except Russia.

You are being an apologist for Putin. And you are being an apologist for the other Putin apologists.

You want to know who is to blame? Putin. The end.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Gimme a break. He blamed everyone even tangentially involved, and how they are all to blame. He then said Russia is not to blame.

So, yeah, he didn’t blame “everyone,”. Presumably Ethiopia is not to blame. But he did blame everyone involved. Except Russia.

You are being an apologist for Putin. And you are being an apologist for the other Putin apologists.

You want to know who is to blame? Putin. The end.

No need to attack me for your different interpretation of what he said.

What he said (my interpretation, using his word) was that Russia's actions were "reasonable."

"Reasonable" is a tricky word. But I took that to mean that he sees Russia responding to actual perceived threats and provocations in ways that are in most nations' playbooks. Which I agree with - and is probably a good argument for improving our playbooks.

That's NOT the same as saying I support Putin in any way. Nor is that even slightly blaming everybody but Russia. Just that I do not judge what's going on there solely on the widely regurgitated and grotesquely dumbed-down talking points in the mainstream echo chambers.

Which is to say that while I recognize that Putin felt driven to invade Ukraine by the actions of other nations - mainly us - it's still easy for me to condemn Putin's actions.

 

[RileyHawk]

And your point is...?

I think it's worth pointing out that BRICS is an economic consortium while NATO is a military alliance.

We are driving lots of unaligned nations into alignment with China and Russia. Hard to see that as a good thing.

One thing to ponder is that we like to use economic sanctions to fight our enemies instead of going to war. But what happens when the sanctions we call for are rejected by a growing number of so-called Global South nations heading toward closer economic links with China, Russia and rising power India (which hardly anyone is talking about, but we should be)?

Apparently you overlooked which nations are looking to join BRICS. Economically irrelevant and politically atrocious. You may believe they are worthy but I'm happy the US is not looking to align with these countries.

 

[RileyHawk]

No need to attack me for your different interpretation of what he said.

What he said (my interpretation, using his word) was that Russia's actions were "reasonable."

"Reasonable" is a tricky word. But I took that to mean that he sees Russia responding to actual perceived threats and provocations in ways that are in most nations' playbooks. Which I agree with - and is probably a good argument for improving our playbooks.

That's NOT the same as saying I support Putin in any way. Nor is that even slightly blaming everybody but Russia. Just that I do not judge what's going on there solely on the widely regurgitated and grotesquely dumbed-down talking points in the mainstream echo chambers.

Which is to say that while I recognize that Putin felt driven to invade Ukraine by the actions of other nations - mainly us - it's still easy for me to condemn Putin's actions.

But that's not the implication being brought forward. It's that Putin was and is justified in his actions. And your responses have been supporting that narrative. If you're now backing off that stance, say so and make it clear. Otherwise what you're promoting is pure bullshit.

 

[ButtersHawk]

It's insane that we have people actually defending Russia here. There are 2 choices. Russia loses or Russia again borders the same countries (it already does with the Baltic nations) that is had under the Iron Curtain. I hope they are just too young to remember or haven't studied the Cold War. @ButtersHawk thinks that Russia has the right to be angry that NATO is on its doorstep but it's okay for Russia to border countries it overran.

Dude I'm not saying Russia isn't at fault they could have just sent missles into the ocean to prove a point instead of invading. I am just saying I'm not going to look at facts then just completely act shocked that they did invade.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Apparently you overlooked which nations are looking to join BRICS. Economically irrelevant and politically atrocious. You may believe they are worthy but I'm happy the US is not looking to align with these countries.

Jesus! It has nothing to do with "worthiness." It has to do with political and economic realism.

 

[RileyHawk]

Dude I'm not saying Russia isn't at fault they could have just sent missles into the ocean to prove a point instead of invading. I am just saying I'm not going to look at facts then just completely act shocked that they did invade.

Who's shocked? The reaction has been disdain because it is wrong and terrible.

 

[RileyHawk]

Jesus! It has nothing to do with "worthiness." It has to do with political and economic realism.

LOL - so do you think, realistically, that these countries are important for the US to align with politically or economically?