Why was Tom Davis forced out?

[longliveCS40]

Being scared of change is not good. You will NEVER improve in anything without taking some risks.

Could the next coach be bad? Sure. He may also be better, and lead the team to a few Sweet 16's (or more), something Fran has never done in his entire coaching career.

I am not saying Fran should be fired, but to think the next guy is more likely to be as bad as Lickliter than not is irrational, and...no offense...loser talk.

Taking uncalculated "risks" is what losers do. (no offense? Lol)

Why do I think it's more likely to go backwards than forward with a new coaching hire? Look at the Big Ten hires in the last 5 years and the state of those programs and you tell me. Based on logic and examples rather than shots in the dark.

The thing you need to understand is that every program has a ceiling. Once you reach that ceiling, changing a coach to reach higher is a fool's errand.

Iowa has made 6 head coaching changes in my lifetime. All but one change has resulted in less success. That one? Fran taking the helm from Lickliter. Again, I'm basing my assessment on facts and history.

Having said all that, it's fine if we replace Fran. I think we can possibly do as well and it will add fan excitement having a new coach which is something we need. Do I think we are going to all of a sudden be perrenial sweet 16 participants? No.

 

[dekhawk]

Used to agree with this 100% until NIL came along. Fran is a top 10 offensive coach in the country. Very few teams run better stuff than us. Defense clearly another story. However, going back to NIL, we basically are offering nothing. Now a new coach might be better, 50-50 chance, but without any money are we going to recruit any better? I doubt it. I’m not saying I don’t have Fran fatigue but we’re clearly a top half of the league team year in and out. Better than Maryland, Ohio St, Indiana, etc.

Are NIL contributors not kicking in as they don’t see a payback with Fran?

 

[littlez]

Are NIL contributors not kicking in as they don’t see a payback with Fran?

What’s the the payback on football these days? Getting embarrassed by a Freshman QB in a shitty bowl by 4 touchdowns?

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

NIL is just one more big disadvantage for Iowa BB. Fran actually has the team positioned very well with the last couple of recruiting classes, if Tony stays another year.

I honestly believe it would be more likely that Iowa would usually finish worse in the B1G regular season, if Fran is replaced. He has us consistently finishing in the top half of the league, but then we pee down our leg in post season. So, maybe there would be a much lower floor and a little higher ceiling.

 

[BirdistheWord]

That's rather irrelevant to TDs story. We're talking about what happened vs what might have happened. TD inherited arguably the best collection of athletes of my lifetime, and did very well with them. The next ten years after they were gone was average to above average. Sometimes not even that.

If you subtract Dr Tom’s first 2 years, his winning percentage was still 63%. Fran is at 59%, but we should remove his first year. That brings him up to 61%. Davis is still slightly better and with a far better tournament resume, though if we remove the first two years, it’s less impressive but still better than FM.

Both coaches would be far better than average, Davis would be 7th best (4th if you include first two years) and Fran 8th of all time at Iowa.

*I did re run the numbers below if Davis’ first 3 years were removed (due to Marble/armstong/horton still on team)

 

[nck24]

If you subtract Dr Tom’s first 2 years, his winning percentage was still 63%. Fran is at 59%, but we should remove his first year. That brings him up to 61%. Davis is still slightly better and with a far better tournament resume, though if we remove the first two years, it’s less impressive but still better than FM.

Both coaches would be far better than average, Davis would be 7th best (4th if you include first two years) and Fran 8th of all time at Iowa.

Not to pick nits but Davis had the Marble/Horton/Armstrong group for three years.

 

[dekhawk]

What’s the the payback on football these days? Getting embarrassed by a Freshman QB in a shitty bowl by 4 touchdowns?

Historically better than basketball.

 

[BirdistheWord]

Not to pick nits but Davis had the Marble/Horton/Armstrong group for three years.

Fair point, though Every other player on the roster was recruited by Davis in 88-89 and the three you mentioned were coached and developed by Davis. However…

I did re run the numbers if we did wipe out all three years and the winning percentage fell to 58%. 🤔

So Fran has the better “adjusted winning percentage” 61-58 and Davis has the better ncaa tournament record.

Interesting.

 

[littlez]

Historically better than basketball.

Kirk has a 60% winning percentage overall and is 10-10 in bowls. Pretty similar.

 

[iahawks10]

If you subtract Dr Tom’s first 2 years, his winning percentage was still 63%. Fran is at 59%, but we should remove his first year. That brings him up to 61%. Davis is still slightly better and with a far better tournament resume, though if we remove the first two years, it’s less impressive but still better than FM.

Both coaches would be far better than average, Davis would be 7th best (4th if you include first two years) and Fran 8th of all time at Iowa.

*I did re run the numbers below if Davis’ first 3 years were removed (due to Marble/armstong/horton still on team)

Removing both coach’s first two seasons at Iowa, Dr Tom’s and Fran’s records are very similar.

In years 3-13 (including 14 for Fran):

Dr Tom went to 7 NCAA Tournaments, going 8-7 with one Sweet 16.

Fran went to 8 NCAA Tournaments (including the Covid canceled year), going 4-7. *One “claimed” National Championship by Ryan Kriener.


Dr Tom went 215-125 (.632) overall and 99-95 (.510) in the Big Ten.

Fran went 250-151 (.623) overall and 124-103 (.546) in the B1G.

 

[amahawk]

Where the hell was Bowlsby every time Jaacks threw an elbow at an opposing player's head?

I saw opposing players throw the ball right into Jaacks face.

 

[iahawks10]

I saw opposing players throw the ball right into Jaacks face.

This is why Bobby Knight will always be a POS in my book. This was taught, coached, and goes beyond Michael Lewis. Iowa received a Technical Foul out of the deal.

 

[nck24]

Fair point, though Every other player on the roster was recruited by Davis in 88-89 and the three you mentioned were coached and developed by Davis. However…

I did re run the numbers if we did wipe out all three years and the winning percentage fell to 58%. 🤔

So Fran has the better “adjusted winning percentage” 61-58 and Davis has the better ncaa tournament record.

Interesting.

If you think about it...neither one have a amazing NCAA record for coaches that have been around for 10 or more years. Winning one or two games in the tourney means you have a team that is pretty good, but not good enough to be a contender. I don't mean that as a negative for either coach.

 

[littlez]

If you think about it...neither one have an amazing NCAA record for coaches that have been around for 10 or more years. Winning one or two games in the tourney means you have a team that is pretty good, but not good enough to be a contender. I don't mean that as a negative for either coach.

I’m not sure everyone remembers the damage Chris Streets death had on the program. He was a game changer on all levels. Energy, incredible on the press, great leader and was really just finding his offensive game. That was at a minimum sweet 16 team and possibly an elite 8 or with a little luck Final 4 moving forward. And Dr Tom got screwed in the Ray Thompson situation which crashed another potential really good team.

 

[BirdistheWord]

If you think about it...neither one have an amazing NCAA record for coaches that have been around for 10 or more years. Winning one or two games in the tourney means you have a team that is pretty good, but not good enough to be a contender. I don't mean that as a negative for either coach.

Yes, but it goes to show how important recruiting is. The depth we had in the mid to late 80’s was incredible. Dr. Tom and Frans recruiting are similar, good enough but not great.

Our next coach HAS to be someone who can bring in a few more higher caliber players.

 

[bbwretler]

You’re wrong.

No, I’m not. Very possible I might be somewhat closer to the situation.

 

[bbwretler]

Ronnie Harmon openly admitted to getting money his last two years in college, over $50K. Maybe the basketball recruits were different, but I doubt it.

Doubt it all you want. Basketball recruites were not paid to sign with Iowa.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

I think the W-L records of Fran and Dr Tom are very comparable, when you adjust for what they given when hired. I am not an insider and have not been in Iowa City since Lute's final year, but I think the biggest difference between the coaches is what was expected of the players off the court. I won't toss out hear say, but suffice to say that players were NOT held to a very high standard of conduct off the court under Dr Tom. I don't know if that was considered when he was fired.

 

[83Hawk]

Taking uncalculated "risks" is what losers do. (no offense? Lol)

Why do I think it's more likely to go backwards than forward with a new coaching hire? Look at the Big Ten hires in the last 5 years and the state of those programs and you tell me. Based on logic and examples rather than shots in the dark.

The thing you need to understand is that every program has a ceiling. Once you reach that ceiling, changing a coach to reach higher is a fool's errand.

Iowa has made 6 head coaching changes in my lifetime. All but one change has resulted in less success. That one? Fran taking the helm from Lickliter. Again, I'm basing my assessment on facts and history.

Having said all that, it's fine if we replace Fran. I think we can possibly do as well and it will add fan excitement having a new coach which is something we need. Do I think we are going to all of a sudden be perrenial sweet 16 participants? No.

To be fair, you said it was more likely Iowa will get another Lickliter than not.....not "go backwards". Big difference! And not a logical assumption IMO.

I don't agree with you. I think it's DEFINITELY possible a different coach can take the Hawks to a few Sweet 16's (I didn't say perennial). As for doing it "all of a sudden"....Dewey Oxburger at ISU did it. There have been around 100 schools that have gone to the Sweet 16 since Iowa last went. How is it THEY can do it, but not Iowa?

What, exactly, is Iowa's ceiling? The Hawks have been to the Final Four 3 times, and the title game once. Or have fan expectations been lowered so much that we should never expect to make the Sweet 16?

Only 1 of the last 6 head coaching changes resulted in more success? Hardly. The last 6 hires were: Lute, Raveling, Davis, Alford, Lickliter, and Fran. Are you seriously saying Lute and Davis were not more successful than the coaches they replaced? Only Fran?

Out of those 6 coaches, only 1 was "bad".

 

[littlez]

Doubt it all you want. Basketball recruites were not paid to sign with Iowa.

Paid to sign w/Iowa? Possibly not. Receiving money from people while at Iowa? There was a lot going on at the U of I sports in the early and mid 80's.

 

[BirdistheWord]

I’m not sure everyone remembers the damage Chris Streets death had on the program. He was a game changer on all levels. Energy, incredible on the press, great leader and was really just finding his offensive game. That was at a minimum sweet 16 team and possibly an elite 8 or with a little luck Final 4 moving forward. And Dr Tom got screwed in the Ray Thompson situation which crashed another potential really good team.

Great points. Chris was amazing. And Ray Thompson, ugh, his freshman year was outstanding, had so much promise.

 

[BirdistheWord]

Paid to sign w/Iowa? Possibly not. Receiving money from people while at Iowa? There was a lot going on at the U of I sports in the early and mid 80's.

Saw some of the players driving brand new cars. Not definitive proof but not many college students driving new cars. This was 1987.

 

[perryhawk]

To be fair, you said it was more likely Iowa will get another Lickliter than not.....not "go backwards". Big difference! And not a logical assumption IMO.

I don't agree with you. I think it's DEFINITELY possible a different coach can take the Hawks to a few Sweet 16's (I didn't say perennial). As for doing it "all of a sudden"....Dewey Oxburger at ISU did it. There have been around 100 schools that have gone to the Sweet 16 since Iowa last went. How is it THEY can do it, but not Iowa?

What, exactly, is Iowa's ceiling? The Hawks have been to the Final Four 3 times, and the title game once. Or have fan expectations been lowered so much that we should never expect to make the Sweet 16?

Only 1 of the last 6 head coaching changes resulted in more success? Hardly. The last 6 hires were: Lute, Raveling, Davis, Alford, Lickliter, and Fran. Are you seriously saying Lute and Davis were not more successful than the coaches they replaced? Only Fran?

Out of those 6 coaches, only 1 was "bad".

It is possible that a new coach could take us to a higher level, but citing Oxwhatever at ISU has to be preceded by Prohm(sp?)……think about that. That guy was seen as a very good hire, talented young coach, on the rise, until he wasn’t. Their program TANKED under him. Alford was the hot young coach nationally….Lick was the national coach of the year….

We all know that Fran has been consistently “reasonably” successful when compared with past Iowa coaches.

After Dr Tom was pushed out we went through a decade? of Alford, Lick, and then Fran returning us to a reasonable level of success.

I’m not saying the next coach will or won’t improve the program….but we have no idea how good the new AD is at finding the right hire…..and I fully believe that’s an art (maybe a crap shoot) and not a science.

Fran is mid 60s…..

 

[iowahawkeyes1982]

It is possible that a new coach could take us to a higher level, but citing Oxwhatever at ISU has to be preceded by Prohm(sp?)……think about that. That guy was seen as a very good hire, talented young coach, on the rise, until he wasn’t. Their program TANKED under him. Alford was the hot young coach nationally….Lick was the national coach of the year….

We all know that Fran has been consistently “reasonably” successful when compared with past Iowa coaches.

After Dr Tom was pushed out we went through a decade? of Alford, Lick, and then Fran returning us to a reasonable level of success.

I’m not saying the next coach will or won’t improve the program….but we have no idea how good the new AD is at finding the right hire…..and I fully believe that’s an art (maybe a crap shoot) and not a science.

Fran is mid 60s…..

Too bad Barta couldn't figure out Lickliter was propped up by Brad Stevens. You'd think the AD would, ya know, do some digging on that sort of thing.

 

[iowahawkeyes1982]

Kirk has a 60% winning percentage overall and is 10-10 in bowls. Pretty similar.

Apples and oranges. That's a terrible comparison.

 

[nck24]

Saw some of the players driving brand new cars. Not definitive proof but not many college students driving new cars. This was 1987.

I saw that with football players as well.

 

[dekhawk]

Kirk has a 60% winning percentage overall and is 10-10 in bowls. Pretty similar.

Big ten titles, big west titles, decent bowl wins, (orange bowl) . IMHO most hawk fans have derived more pride and satisfaction from the football wins than one big basketball tourney title. Some bad losses yes, but several fun wins in football.

 

[bbwretler]

Paid to sign w/Iowa? Possibly not. Receiving money from people while at Iowa? There was a lot going on at the U of I sports in the early and mid 80's.

that’s not news. there was always something going on. a meal, groceries, transportation, a hundred dollars as needed, heck I’m guilty. Were there a couple people who did more…on occasion….yes. was it the same here as with others in the big ten? not even close! some seem to see a lot of smoke, there was no fire.

 

[littlez]

that’s not news. there was always something going on. a meal, groceries, transportation, a hundred dollars as needed, heck I’m guilty. Were there a couple people who did more…on occasion….yes. was it the same here as with others in the big ten? not even close! some seem to see a lot of smoke, there was no fire.

So it sounds like you played but won’t tell more.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

Recruiting or lack thereof.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

Would you trade finishing in the top half of the B1G regularly for less consistent regular season records, but an occasional Sweet 16? That might be about as optimistic as I would be for firing Fran and hiring a replacement. Currently, if if all of the players stayed, the new coach would have a very nice base of players to work with, about as good as could be expected without some NIL $$$ to work with.

 

[bbwretler]

So it sounds like you played but won’t tell more.

no ne needs to know more…..just that no programs were completely clean and ours was cleaner than the other 95%.

 

[iowahawkeyes1982]

Would you trade finishing in the top half of the B1G regularly for less consistent regular season records, but an occasional Sweet 16? That might be about as optimistic as I would be for firing Fran and hiring a replacement. Currently, if if all of the players stayed, the new coach would have a very nice base of players to work with, about as good as could be expected without some NIL $$$ to work with.

That's the catch 22 with Fran. Say what you want about him, but one thing is for sure, his players love him. If you were to make a change after this season, I have a feeling we'd lose some guys out of the core. BUT, if you were to make the right hire and keep the core guys, I think the NIL money might start coming in.

 

[perryhawk]

Too bad Barta couldn't figure out Lickliter was propped up by Brad Stevens. You'd think the AD would, ya know, do some digging on that sort of thing.

That’s true….. have no idea who Butler’s AD was then..but they might have been really happy to move Lick along and thankful that Iowa or anyone else might want him? Who in the Butler organization was going to tell Iowa, “This guy is not good, our lead assistant coach is the one responsible for these results!” And if they had said that, would Barta have believed that?

I did quite a bit of hiring over my career and had one guy that got great recommendations from back channels we used doing a background…..ended up firing the guy. Later heard from someone in the organization that they were very happy someone hired him.

 

[TampaHawkfan]

This is why Bobby Knight will always be a POS in my book. This was taught, coached, and goes beyond Michael Lewis. Iowa received a Technical Foul out of the deal.

View embedded media

I don't recall this, but not surprised. I recall the same thing happening to Kent Hill vs Indiana, IIRC. I belive Todd Jadlow was the guy inbounding the ball.

This was not a first.

 

[Hawksbyamillion]

Can I ask if anyone ever thought Deplorable was Randy Larson?

I was gonna ask the same thing

 

[TampaHawkfan]

I'm just going by what I've read, but the story I've heard several times is that Bowlsby did not like Joey Range's character, and told Dr. Tom to not recruit him, but Davis recruited him anyway. Davis was soon pushed out the door, and Range wasn't far behind him.

I dug up a couple articles, that seem to support the theory. Range committed November 1997, and it was announced after that season (1997-98) that Davis's contract would not be renewed and Alford seemed to have it in for Joey Range from day 1.

Coincidence? Can only speculate, but from where I'm sitting, Steve Alford's first assignment as head coach must have been to get rid of Joey Range.

November 1997, Range commits:

Hawks find Range; Streak star commits

qconline.com

Another article:

Moments of Madness: Dr. Tom's final run at Iowa

A lame-duck coach. A group of zoned-in players. One 'Sweet' finish.

www.hawkcentral.com

Excerpt from the article:

Steve Alford, the former Indiana wunderkind, was hired as Davis’ replacement after his 22-win season at Southwest Missouri State.

What followed was a culture shock for Range, who spent time back in Galesburg before meeting his new coach.

“I walked in on the team meeting, sat down and Alford was like, ‘You go into the hallway. ... You’re not a part of this team until you’ve proven yourself to me,” Range recalled. “I was like, ‘What are you talking about?’”

Alford’s father, Sam, came out to the hallway and eased tensions, Range recalled. But Range says he knew, “Alford wasn’t for me.”

Alford announced in April that Range was banned from workouts, in order to concentrate on academics. Range eventually transferred to Hutchinson Community College and never played at the Division I level again.

Since this thread resurfaced again, I'll quote my own post from a few years ago.

I will always believe that the Joey Range recruitment was what ultimately got Davis shown the door.

Davis recruited Range. A year later, Davis was out. And so was Joey Range a short time after the next coach was on campus. Why would Alford have it in for Range on day 1, if he had not been instructed to run him off? I have no proof or inside knowledge, but it's a theory I believe wholeheartedly.

 

[BirdistheWord]

Since this thread resurfaced again, I'll quote my own post from a few years ago.

I will always believe that the Joey Range recruitment was what ultimately got Davis shown the door.

Davis recruited Range. A year later, Davis was out. And so was Joey Range a short time after the next coach was on campus. Why would Alford have it in for Range on day 1, if he had not been instructed to run him off? I have no proof or inside knowledge, but it's a theory I believe wholeheartedly.

And the irony given what happened with Pierre Pierce years later

 

[hawkeyebob62]

Do you remember who he wanted to be the football coach after Fry? Ot was not KF.

He wanted Terry Allen. Let THAT sink in.