Work Hard?

[Old_wrestling_fan]

do you specifically require a 4 year degree for the positions you fill, and if so could those positions be filled by somebody with some work history and or community college?

Most big companies, when they are looking to fill seats in their cubicle farms have HR depts with the standard, lazy interview questions like "name a time when you________". That is if they manage to get past the online application process and not get weeded out because they filters found certain words or didn't have certain keywords.

Some positions require a degree, some do not. Even when I am hiring a position that "requires" a degree, I will consider work experience and other educational background for sure. One of my key managers is not a college graduate, but he is also extremely smart with his own money, and not surprisingly, mine too, and has many years of great work experience with a proven track record of success and promotion.

 

[thewop]

Excellent post. But we have libs here who have gone to Europe and drank some wine, and, it's like, really cool over there. It has to be better, they have trains to get from city to city???

Besides, if it "worked" to raise wages why wouldn't we just raise the minimum to $200 per hour? That would be even better than $15 and just think of the economy we'd have!!!

To be fair to Europe, you CAN get almost anywhere drunk without getting behind the wheel of a car, and it won't cost you a day's wages. However, when you wake up the next morning with a headache, you may need a prescription to get some tylenol, because someone decided that should be free with the government healthcare plan (Germany specifically).

 

[The Tradition]

Well, newsflash, the rich don't have to work nearly as hard as you.

Every business owner I've ever known works MUCH harder than ANY of his employees.

This assertion is a total FAIL.

 

[thedirtyglass]

That's called "behavioral interviewing" and it's not lazy at all. You're asking the candidate to tell a story where they succeeded, or overcame an obstacle, or learned from a mistake. You're trying to understand how this person solves problems, reacts to adversity, and achieves success.

well hell, just throw those questions on an application. Most people already have one of those scenarios prepared in their mind, so why not just type those situations during the application process.

I have been through many interviews in the past that have had these questions. Some positions I have been offered and others I didn't. many of these places that I have interviewed at that ask these types of questions always seem to be posting to fill that position. If this is great indicator of how to determine how an person will turn out as an employee, it doesn't seem to be working for those particular HR depts.

 

[Jan Itor]

On the contrary, when I am interviewing someone fresh out of college for a job and I learn that they have racked up a huge debt and also taken 5-7+ years to do it...I steer around them and prefer to hire people that found a way to get through college without shackling themselves in such an unavoidable way. (Caveat - advanced degrees like MD's and JD's can legitimately be associated with larger debts. But if someone cannot get through a state school in 4 years with zero to modest debt, they aren't trying very hard.)

Incredibly, the people that have buckled down and zipped through college are often also the ones that have contributed to society via some sort of service club/project, etc. While the laggards can often describe their Spring Break experiences...or at least where they went.

Because if they are not smart enough, or hard working enough, to get through 4 years of college in, egads, 4 years, without saddling themselves with incredible debt...they aren't smart enough, or hard working enough, to work intelligently and effectively for me. That's one of the problems of the entitlement generation...people think they are owed something by everyone.

Employers aren't just looking for "bodies" with a 4 year degree, they are looking for smart, hard working people who can manage themselves and set priorities such that they aren't just lurching from fun party to another, etc.

So you hire those that had mommy and daddy pay for their college...

 

[22*43*51]

Well, newsflash, the rich don't have to work nearly as hard as you.

By and large untrue.

 

[Pepperman]

Well, newsflash, the rich don't have to work nearly as hard as you. That is what people are trying to level the playing field on.

Can you define "rich" for me here? I'm just curious. I know a lot of people that make over $250k per year that are effectively on call for their employers 24/7, travel on weekends, watch the Super Bowl while checking (and replying to) work email, etc.

I just want to be sure you're not including those types in your blanket statement.

 

[The Tradition]

well hell, just throw those questions on an application. Most people already have one of those scenarios prepared in their mind, so why not just type those situations during the application process.

I have been through many interviews in the past that have had these questions. Some positions I have been offered and others I didn't. many of these places that I have interviewed at that ask these types of questions always seem to be posting to fill that position. If this is great indicator of how to determine how an person will turn out as an employee, it doesn't seem to be working for those particular HR depts.

So much fail here I don't know where to begin.

I guarantee you're not going to have enough canned answers for all my behavioral interview questions unless you're Marco Rubio.

Secondly, there are a multitude of reasons for position turnover, and employee selection is just one of them.

Finally, your personal interview experience is anecdotal, and proves nothing.

 

[Pepperman]

Every business owner I've ever known works MUCH harder than ANY of his employees.

This assertion is a total FAIL.

This is why I've asked that poster to define "rich". I'm with you - most "rich" are very hard working, and extremely dedicated to their jobs. It is why they get promotions, and why they make those larger salaries.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

So you hire those that had mommy and daddy pay for their college...

LOL! You nailed it! Not!

If that is what you got out of what I wrote then I don't really have anything to add beyond saying that I am looking for mature, responsible people, not helpless partiers.

 

[thedirtyglass]

So much fail here I don't know where to begin.

I guarantee you're not going to have enough canned answers for all my behavioral interview questions unless you're Marco Rubio.

Secondly, there are a multitude of reasons for position turnover, and employee selection is just one of them.

Finally, your personal interview experience is anecdotal, and proves nothing.

lol, how your behavioral interviews go, and a persons inability to have canned answers for whatever you throw at them is just as (if not more) anecdotal regarding behavioral interviews than the many interviews I have had over the years that have thrown out the same questions without much deviation or variety.

 

[Jan Itor]

LOL! You nailed it! Not!

If that is what you got out of what I wrote then I don't really have anything to add beyond saying that I am looking for mature, responsible people, not helpless partiers.

So racking up debt = immature, irresponsible, helpless partiers?

 

[Raglefant]

I didn't read the OP as calling all Libs lazy in fact he didn't even mention a political party or philosophy.

He questioned why people feel entitled to something when they can work for it.

I also don't recognize the OP as being far right on issues. Looked like a question that deserved a better response.

As I said my response was largely directed at the 2nd post, but the first post didn't deserve a better response. The notion that in this country working for something has become a bad thing is asinine.

Having said that, I'm sorry. It's not my goal to add to the hate, but my humanity gets the best of me at times.

 

[The Tradition]

lol, how your behavioral interviews go, and a persons inability to have canned answers for whatever you throw at them is just as (if not more) anecdotal regarding behavioral interviews than the many interviews I have had over the years that have thrown out the same questions without much deviation or variety.

Maybe you don't get hired because the interviewer detects your obvious hostility toward the interview process?

Just speculating....

 

[RNHawk]

As I said my response was largely directed at the 2nd post, but the first post didn't deserve a better response. The notion that in this country working for something has become a bad thing is asinine.

Having said that, I'm sorry. It's not my goal to add to the hate, but my humanity gets the best of me at times.

If working for something isn't a bad thing in this country then there really should be no arguments about paying for higher education and having welfare reform?????

 

[thedirtyglass]

Maybe you don't get hired because the interviewer detects your obvious hostility toward the interview process?

Just speculating....

see, now if i was a smug interviewer as yourself and this was an interview, you would now be disqualified as you clearly missed the portion of an earlier post that said I have been offered some, others not.

I see you just don't pay that much attention to detail, and therefore that error defines how you would be as an employee.

 

[The Tradition]

see, now if i was a smug interviewer as yourself and this was an interview, you would now be disqualified as you clearly missed the portion of an earlier post that said I have been offered some, others not.

I see you just don't pay that much attention to detail, and therefore that error defines how you would be as an employee.

No, I noticed you said that, but I focused more on your admission that you weren't offered the job.

As an employer, that makes me wonder, "What did those other employers see that I do not?"

 

[longliveCS40]

Can you define "rich" for me here? I'm just curious. I know a lot of people that make over $250k per year that are effectively on call for their employers 24/7, travel on weekends, watch the Super Bowl while checking (and replying to) work email, etc.

I just want to be sure you're not including those types in your blanket statement.

I meant the rich don't have to work nearly as hard to be able to go to college and make it through college. They don't have to have part time jobs, full time jobs, etc. I should have clarified that.

 

[thedirtyglass]

No, I noticed you said that, but I focused more on your admission that you weren't offered the job.

As an employer, that makes me wonder, "What did those other employers see that I do not?"

I won the competition for best canned answer for those particular contests?

 

[The Tradition]

I meant the rich don't have to work nearly as hard to be able to go to college and make it through college. They don't have to have part time jobs, full time jobs, etc. I should have clarified that.

Do you believe that every person stays in the same income class throughout one's life?

Sure, there are some silver spoon types who are life-long rich, and there are extreme poverty cases who never get out of poverty, but most people move around somewhat throughout their lives. Plenty of rich people have lost it all, and plenty of poor people became financially successful.

 

[longliveCS40]

Do you believe that every person stays in the same income class throughout one's life?

Sure, there are some silver spoon types who are life-long rich, and there are extreme poverty cases who never get out of poverty, but most people move around somewhat throughout their lives. Plenty of rich people have lost it all, and plenty of poor people became financially successful.

Sure, there are cases such as those you point out. That doesn't change what I'm saying. When your parents have money and you don't have to take student loans for college, you're setup better after you graduate. When you don't have to get a job while in college, you're setup better to graduate and with better grades.

Now, don't take this the wrong way that I'm harping on rich people or saying boohoo for the poor people. Many rich people got that way through hard work. I'm simply pointing out the reason that people want to try to provide free college as they feel that it will level the playing field a bit. I think there's a happy medium between free college and what we have now.

 

[The Tradition]

Sure, there are cases such as those you point out. That doesn't change what I'm saying. When your parents have money and you don't have to take student loans for college, you're setup better after you graduate. When you don't have to get a job while in college, you're setup better to graduate and with better grades.

Now, don't take this the wrong way that I'm harping on rich people or saying boohoo for the poor people. Many rich people got that way through hard work. I'm simply pointing out the reason that people want to try to provide free college as they feel that it will level the playing field a bit. I think there's a happy medium between free college and what we have now.

I'm all for a happy medium.

For example, you can serve a stint in the military and get the GI Bill to pay for college. I would be in favor of a plan that provides a "GI Bill" style benefit for people willing to work for it in other areas, such as serving in the Peace Corps, or building Habitat for Humanity houses, or volunteering in a nursing home.

Key phase: work for it.

 

[GarryO37]

In 1994 tuition was only $2352 at the university of Iowa. My dad had rental property in Cedar Rapids and let me live there for free as long as I went to school. I was able to work part time and during the summer to actually pay for my tuition without loans. The reality is, that's impossible to do now.

The amount of debt a kid has to accrue now to get an education is obscene. We're creating a whole generation of debt slaves. Before somebody spouts off, I know nobody is forcing these kids to go to college and acquiring all that debt. Some way, some how tuition costs need to be reigned in. How that should be done, I don't know.

I agree with this. Tuition has gotten very much out of hand. I believe part of the problems lies in the fact that students are allowed to take out more in loans than what is required to pay the tuition. This has allowed universities to increase tuition at such a crazy rate.

To be able to pay your own way to a bachelors degree. You would have to be a full time worker and a part time student and it would take 7-8 years to graduate with just a bachelor's degree. No one wants to do that because it's ridiculous. You don't get the full college experience that mom and dad had and these kids want and deserve.

Community colleges are becoming a far more cost effective way for post high school education. Going 2 years at a community college working part time and paying your tuition. An associates degree is good enough to get you a good job at a lot of places that offer tuition reimbursement as a benefit. Then work full time while being a part time student at a university.

Even if the job doesn't offer tuition reimbursement, $20k or less is far easier to pay back than $100k plus.

The wife and I have a pretty good plan put together that we will push our children towards to mitigate the cost of getting a bachelors degree. Part of that plan is instead (they don't even have a choice in this) of taking most of the school day off during senior year of high, they will take college courses at a community college like Kirkwood as the high school will pay for those courses here in Cedar Rapids.

I guess the point is for people who have these outrageous loans right now is to learn from them. And until it gets fix, which I don't ever really see happening, educate your children and push towards the most cost effective way to get a post secondary education. Community college isn't looked at the way it was in the past anymore. They are seen in a far more favorable light nowadays.

The wife made the mistake a lot of students are making today. We don't want our children to make those same mistakes. So we will put them in the best position possible to succeed and start out life without the burden of huge debt.

 

[longliveCS40]

I'm all for a happy medium.

For example, you can serve a stint in the military and get the GI Bill to pay for college. I would be in favor of a plan that provides a "GI Bill" style benefit for people willing to work for it in other areas, such as serving in the Peace Corps, or building Habitat for Humanity houses, or volunteering in a nursing home.

Key phase: work for it.

Agree and think that's a really good idea. You shouldn't have to put your life on the line to get college tuition but Peace Corps or other work programs are an excellent idea.

Bottom line, life isn't fair and some people have to work harder for it. That will never change but I think changes can be made to lessen the gap in that arena.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

So racking up debt = immature, irresponsible, helpless partiers?

Depends on several factors...but in my mind, someone that racks up significant debt while getting a 4 year degree from a state college is very likely to be one, or a combination of, the elements you listed.

Hard working, serious minded people should be able to navigate their way through a 4 year degree at a state college without anchoring themselves with large debt.

 

[Raglefant]

If working for something isn't a bad thing in this country then there really should be no arguments about paying for higher education and having welfare reform?????

I don't understand the question. Working for something isn't a bad thing. How is the answer to that question relevant to welfare reform or higher education?

 

[Jan Itor]

Depends on several factors...but in my mind, someone that racks up significant debt while getting a 4 year degree from a state college is very likely to be one, or a combination of, the elements you listed.

Hard working, serious minded people should be able to navigate their way through a 4 year degree at a state college without anchoring themselves with large debt.

And when did you attend college? What were the tuition rates, books, housing, just overall cost of living then?

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

...

To be able to pay your own way to a bachelors degree. You would have to be a full time worker and a part time student and it would take 7-8 years to graduate with just a bachelor's degree. No one wants to do that because it's ridiculous. You don't get the full college experience that mom and dad had and these kids want and deserve.
...

Not really true. ^^ Factor in savings for many years prior to starting college and diligence and thrift while in college and it can all still be done. My son still in college works FT when school is not in session and about 20 hours per week when it is. He has sufficient time for the "college experience", and is very well rounded and a happy personality.

His GPA is over 4.0 as well. Yes, we cover some of his expenses like transportation, cell phone and health insurance, but even if we didn't, he would have at most, very minimal loans to cover that and his case, he wouldn't need any loans. He is on schedule now to finish college with more money in savings than when he started.

He can also graduate a semester early if he takes a class this summer. It can be done folks, but it just requires more effort than many seem to be able or willing to provide.

People that cannot see a way to accomplish their goals are pretty much doomed before they start. If things aren't easy or provided for nothing, people don't know how to get them it seems.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

And when did you attend college? What were the tuition rates, books, housing, just overall cost of living then?

I attended college in the early to mid-eighties and yes, it is a tougher road these days, that I do not dispute. I started college with virtually nothing and ended with less...but I finished in 4 years and had very minimal debt. (I also had no savings when I started. Had I been taught/encouraged/obligated to save for my college...I would have come through with zero debt. But I was not a good money manager at the start...our boys were saving for their own college when they were 5 or 6 years old and really started devoting a significant % of their earnings when they were around 14-15.)

I also applied myself in school and fulfilled the requirements for several majors. Since I was paying for 100% of my expenses, I took my education far more seriously than did many others that I went to school with...many of whom took 5 years to get their degree and most of those were receiving partial or full help from their parents.

 

[iammrhawkeyes]

Do they? Maybe calling out ignorant, prejudiced, and divisive rhetoric is necessary? What do you think?

 

[HIWB]

Depends on several factors...but in my mind, someone that racks up significant debt while getting a 4 year degree from a state college is very likely to be one, or a combination of, the elements you listed.

Hard working, serious minded people should be able to navigate their way through a 4 year degree at a state college without anchoring themselves with large debt.

Some might say hard working, Serious minded people view school as an investment and the opportunities it offers long term outweigh the financial drawbacks of the short term and can manage themselves appropriately. I'm certainly happy my first managers took the risk on me based on my abilities as an intern and not based on my Sallie Mae account.
I guess if your work environment is a carbon copy of a 4 year state school environment, you're probably hiring exactly the right person you need.

 

[GarryO37]

Not really true. ^^ Factor in savings for many years prior to starting college and diligence and thrift while in college and it can all still be done. My son still in college works FT when school is not in session and about 20 hours per week when it is. He has sufficient time for the "college experience", and is very well rounded and a happy personality.

His GPA is over 4.0 as well. Yes, we cover some of his expenses like transportation, cell phone and health insurance, but even if we didn't, he would have at most, very minimal loans to cover that and his case, he wouldn't need any loans. He is on schedule now to finish college with more money in savings than when he started.

He can also graduate a semester early if he takes a class this summer. It can be done folks, but it just requires more effort than many seem to be able or willing to provide.

People that cannot see a way to accomplish their goals are pretty much doomed before they start. If things aren't easy or provided for nothing, people don't know how to get them it seems.

With a GPA of over 4.0, is it safe to assume your son has been a stellar student received scholarships? If he didn't, then that's a failure on someone in the family's part.

I'm going to assume your son does receive scholarships to help pay tuition. This is not the case for the average college. So you would ask college students today to do more than you did to get an education? That's kind of ridiculous and a cop out on your part. Don't you think?

I'm very much on the conservative side of moderate. But I will never ask or want my children to do mare than I did to achieve the same things. Sure I could live off of Ramen and bologna sandwiches the rest of my life, but am I going to? Should we? No, and I sure as hell am not going to tell my children to.

My ultimate goal as a parent is for my children to have things easier than I did, not harder. Don't get me wrong I will still teach them to earn things and instill a great work ethic. I want them do be better than I was, but by making smarter decisions. But I'm not going to require they do more than I did growing up. It's not right in my opinion.

If your son went through all that without scholarships and minimal help from you, then he is one in a million and will be very, very successful. Kudos to you for raising him. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what he's doing and he's proof that it can be done.

The reality though is that what worked for him, does not work for most students. It's called the fallacy of composition.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

With a GPA of over 4.0, is it safe to assume your son has been a stellar student received scholarships? If he didn't, then that's a failure on someone in the family's part.

I'm going to assume your son does receive scholarships to help pay tuition. This is not the case for the average college. So you would ask college students today to do more than you did to get an education? That's kind of ridiculous and a cop out on your part. Don't you think?

I'm very much on the conservative side of moderate. But I will never ask or want my children to do mare than I did to achieve the same things. Sure I could live off of Ramen and bologna sandwiches the rest of my life, but am I going to? Should we? No, and I sure as hell am not going to tell my children to.

My ultimate goal as a parent is for my children to have things easier than I did, not harder. Don't get me wrong I will still teach them to earn things and instill a great work ethic. I want them do be better than I was, but by making smarter decisions. But I'm not going to require they do more than I did growing up. It's not right in my opinion.

If your son went through all that without scholarships and minimal help from you, then he is one in a million and will be very, very successful. Kudos to you for raising him. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what he's doing and he's proof that it can be done.

The reality though is that what worked for him, does not work for most students. It's called the fallacy of composition.

Yes, my son has earned scholarships and that has certainly played a part in him having more in savings now than when he started college. But even if you took the scholarship money out of the equation, he still would be nowhere near needing loans. I would ask that today's students do no more, but also no less, work than I did when I paid my way through college.

My son's work schedule is actually less than mine was when I was in school, but he was far ahead of me when he started in terms of savings and my wife and I also contribute more to his welfare than my parents did when I was in school. Yet, we wanted our boys to earn it for themselves and they largely have and will both be debt free when finished.

Are you sure that the fallacy of composition does not also apply to the story of the poor college student who cannot muster their way through college without heavy debt? FWIW, we don't require that he work as much as he chose to work. In fact, I was surprised when he told me 1-1/2 years ago that he took a second job so he could change his "burn rate" on his college savings account. He calculated for himself that after 1-1/2 years of college that he would use up a chunk of his savings before he got through college. Not wanting to do that, he voluntarily took a second job...which has allowed him to add to his savings while paying his way through college.

I realize that this is not the norm and yes, we are very proud of him and expect him to have great success in life due to his work ethic and habits, etc, my point is that it is very doable though to get a 4 year degree and to do it without racking up a large debt. This is not a theoretical debate in my mind, it is something that we have lived and are living.

Far too many people see themselves as disadvantaged or "trapped" or working/living in a "rigged" system, when the reality is that they need to dedicate themselves to success via hard work and effort...not getting something from someone else for free, etc.

 

[joelbc1]

In-state tuition at Florida State will run about $6,500 per year, plus fees, books, housing, etc. A student who goes slightly less-than full time and perhaps takes an extra year to graduate can easily afford this with a part-time job, especially if this student can get some grants and partial scholarships.

It really can be done. Might have to sacrifice some social life, but it college isn't supposed to be one long kegger.

In-State "tuition" is that high? That is ridiculous, Trad. The State of Florida must not give any of its State schools a damn red cent. You're saying in-state TUITION is that high in Florida? Not room/board and books, just tuition? That's a friggin' rip-off. That is NOT affordable education. Obviously higher education is not a priority in Florida.

 

[22*43*51]

Obviously higher education is not a priority in Florida.

How does this surprise you?

Have you not met their graduates?

 

[The Tradition]

In-State "tuition" is that high? That is ridiculous, Trad. The State of Florida must not give any of its State schools a damn red cent. You're saying in-state TUITION is that high in Florida? Not room/board and books, just tuition? That's a friggin' rip-off. That is NOT affordable education. Obviously higher education is not a priority in Florida.

Why's it ridiculous? Professors have to eat, too.

 

[joelbc1]

Why's it ridiculous? Professors have to eat, too.

It's a lot of money. I guess I'm glad I'm done. Guess it's a good thing that mine had the ability to really test well.

 

[The Tradition]

In-State "tuition" is that high? That is ridiculous, Trad. The State of Florida must not give any of its State schools a damn red cent. You're saying in-state TUITION is that high in Florida? Not room/board and books, just tuition? That's a friggin' rip-off. That is NOT affordable education. Obviously higher education is not a priority in Florida.

Actually, I don't know what I googled earlier, but it's lower than I first reported.

Iowa's in-state tuition is higher by a couple thousand bucks a year:

Iowa $6,678
FSU $4,640

https://www.cappex.com/colleges/University-of-Iowa/tuition-and-costs

https://www.cappex.com/colleges/Florida-State-University/tuition-and-costs

 

[Rustys Dad]

I absolutely am against "free" college. I can relate to what many say in that many, many people have worked hard, put in the time at college and the. Repaid their debt. My first job was at 14.. Walking beans ... Then worked a couple of in between jobs... Attended juco while I worked 30+ hours at a grocery store... Transferred to a 4-year and got my BA... Had loans for 10 years and paid them off.

I struggle with the notion people should get a free education. ANYONE can attend college. And when YOU are the one paying for it you tend to work harder ... It's a accomplishment... Like buying a house... Getting a job... Getting a promotion.

Sadly our country feels it needs to entitle too many people to freebies or discounts. And when you do that people become complacent ... What's the motivation if someone else is flipping the bill.

 

[Raglefant]

Damn... guess not.

Bernie 2016!!!