How is this any different than what happened at SMU's football program in the 80's?
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How is this any different than what happened at SMU's football program in the 80's?
If the wrestlers earn the money by making national teams and being studs, I really don't have an issue with them knowing how much they will be making on the back end, and making decisions from there. It's not like PSU is going to pay Matt McCutcheon $130k a year to wrestle for the NLWC, so they can have his scholarship back. If they decide to pay Zain and Nolf $100k a year after they graduate, it's because they have earned it. If that allows them to take 10% less scholarship, so be it. As long as they're not signing contracts while still in school, I don't really see the issue. It's a calculated risk on the wrestler's part no matter what.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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I'm still waiting for someone to answer whether or not the school has to disclose to the NCAA how much each collegiate athlete is paid for working camps/clinics.
Seems like it could be used as a way to bypass the 9.9 scholarship limit.
What are the rules/regulations on this? The only answer I've heard is that the school can only pay athletes the prevailing or market rate. But who determines that rate and who is verifying that schools aren't paying athletes more than this rate?
Fair questions Imo.
Seems like it could be used as a way to bypass the 9.9 scholarship limit.
What are the rules/regulations on this? The only answer I've heard is that the school can only pay athletes the prevailing or market rate. But who determines that rate and who is verifying that schools aren't paying athletes more than this rate?
Fair questions Imo.
Maybe write a letter to the NCAA and ask them. Surely must be a way to email some one who could answer this for you.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Typically anything like that is run through the compliance office at the university. I haven't had any dealings with the PSU compliance department, but have already had some at another university and they definitely aren't guys that are looking to bend the rules. Like I said, that may not be the case at PSU, but with the NCAA breathing down their neck after Sandusky AND the university priding itself on being historically one of the cleaner ones in the country in terms of athletic benefits (not a reference to Sandusky, which is a whole nuther issue), I think it's unlikely that the compliance department at PSU is playing dumb at this time.
Then again, you can look at the numbers and it's not all that hard to connect all the dots here, but again I'll reference the tinfoil hats will see what they want to see.
Camp revenues of high 300s - they run an awful lot of camps at 250 - high 400s per
Camp expenses of low 300s - they run an awful lot of camps, at least 5 that house in the thousands of campers who have to be housed, fed, etc. - this is where you would see the payments to athletes accounted for - not a whole bunch of fat.
300,000+ to disqualified individuals - which are NOT athletes unless you are of the opinion that they are lying to the federal government - probably not a good idea for something associated with a university which receives probably in the hundreds of millions from the government. Again, I don't know, but it only makes sense that Cael and coaching staff are getting a bunch of this - especially since it is widely known that his package includes more than just the university salary (as is the case with most coaches).
How do you run a club that spends a few hundred thousand more than it brings in in revenues? Well you get a very big donation to serve like an endowment. Like maybe a 5 million dollar one from Ira Lubert - who basically was the guy who guaranteed the money to deliver Cael. But you guys can speculate all you want about how that money is being thrown around to recruits.
Yes, PSU probably spends more on staff than anyone else. But they have the money to. And like others above (Hawk fans included) have posted, it's probably commensurate with the success one shows in college. Yeah, maybe a bit more than other colleges. But PSU is ahead of the money game at this point by a wide margin, so they have that ability. They have a huge donor and they are also obviously doing great with their camps which they run all over the country. They can bring kids in - they're the hot team.
If the HWC could pony up 100,000+ and land David Taylor - everyone (well, everyone but Don) on here would be saying it's a great move. Heck, I bet a good amount of money was thrown at Perry to get him to get here.
Most logical people would connect the dots as above. Maybe I got some stuff wrong - again, all speculation - but that's what makes sense to me.
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But does the NCAA have an issue? In this scenario, couldn't football and basketball teams do the same? Come to Alabama and play QB for us...we can't pay you now but if you don't make the pros, we will hook you up after your career at Alabama is finished. The university and the RTC's are supposed to be wholly separate entities, at least on paper...correct? I know that gets trampled on some...for example, we all know that Mark Perry can't talk to recruits, right?
Although wrestling is a bit different because football doesn't have football clubs or football regional training centers, let's go down the road of your scenario. Are you saying that Alabama would enter a contract with a recruit to employ them at their "regional training center" after his career? Or are you saying that Saban would give the kid a wink, wink - we will hook you up even if you aren't very good and then the recruit and the parents would forgo maybe a 100,000 in scholarship money on the wink, wink?But does the NCAA have an issue? In this scenario, couldn't football and basketball teams do the same? Come to Alabama and play QB for us...we can't pay you now but if you don't make the pros, we will hook you up after your career at Alabama is finished. The university and the RTC's are supposed to be wholly separate entities, at least on paper...correct? I know that gets trampled on some...for example, we all know that Mark Perry can't talk to recruits, right?
And I don't think anyone is saying that the QB who won the Heisman at Alabama wouldn't be a pretty coveted entity by both Alabama AND Auburn after his collegiate career (if there was no NFL) in the assumed RTC situation.
Wasn't everybody on here bitchin' because Iowa didn't pony up enough money for Metcalf just, like a day ago?
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The NCAA is going to dismantle USA Wrestlings olympic training plan?????
To me that's an apples to oranges comparison. Hooking up a football player with some high paying job he didn't earn is different than paying someone their market value. When Zain graduates, if Penn State doesn't pay him a good chunk, someone else will. I honestly don't know the rules inside and out, but personally don't have a huge issue if this is what is happening.But does the NCAA have an issue? In this scenario, couldn't football and basketball teams do the same? Come to Alabama and play QB for us...we can't pay you now but if you don't make the pros, we will hook you up after your career at Alabama is finished. The university and the RTC's are supposed to be wholly separate entities, at least on paper...correct? I know that gets trampled on some...for example, we all know that Mark Perry can't talk to recruits, right?
But does the NCAA have an issue? In this scenario, couldn't football and basketball teams do the same? Come to Alabama and play QB for us...we can't pay you now but if you don't make the pros, we will hook you up after your career at Alabama is finished. The university and the RTC's are supposed to be wholly separate entities, at least on paper...correct? I know that gets trampled on some...for example, we all know that Mark Perry can't talk to recruits, right?
I don't think this would work with football or basketball, because the "best" - which is what this is after - think and seek going pro, for far more money. You aren't likely to convince a Cam Newton to attend Auburn because they will pay you in the future if you don't make the NFL, or the same with Derek Rose and the NBA. Either pay them now, or they expect to get paid in the pros.
The "pros" for wrestlers is getting this $100k and working out with the club. So the proper comparison would be if an NFL team were guaranteeing a roster spot out of high school, if they attend a specific school.
Not a contract per say...nothing written. But not everybody is going to go pro at Alabama but are still needed as necessary cogs in the machine.
I don't know about that...Saban is not known for being f** like other coaches out there. Although as much as he wins and as many trophies and all the stuff that comes with being on the Alabama football team, you'd think they would be tripping over themselves to forgo the money...at least that's the logic that gets pushed around in some quarters
BTW...football teams do have booster clubs...kind of like the PSWC or the Hawkklub, although I don't think the Hawk Klub solicits donations.
I think you are working far too hard to convince yourself that silver thing on your head is a sharp looking fedora.Not a contract per say...nothing written. But not everybody is going to go pro at Alabama but are still needed as necessary cogs in the machine.
I don't know about that...Saban is not known for being f** like other coaches out there. Although as much as he wins and as many trophies and all the stuff that comes with being on the Alabama football team, you'd think they would be tripping over themselves to forgo the money...at least that's the logic that gets pushed around in some quarters
The bottom line is that it's pretty easy to read what all the info spells out, but it's not easy to digest over here. Right now PSU has better wrestlers and more money invested in their program. The staff in Iowa is great and you guys are rightly proud, but outside of this board I'd venture that the PSU staff is also considered to be great and there are probably a lot of high school kids who were born near the turn of the century and think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. You put that together and it equals NCs.
I imagine things were like they are at PSU in another place not too long ago, and I imagine they will be somewhere else too in the future (hopefully, the distant future
)NCAA cares none about USA Wrestling.Plus RTC's were started because USA Wrestling couldn't fund the athletes it wasn't there training plan if USA Wrestling had there way everyone would be living at the
OTC
And I think you are overextending yourself on your humor
See previous posts about how much I'd love for Iowa to have $5 Million. I just see inherent problems with this system. You guys are getting to be two deep in starter talent with many of your fans bragging that many of these elite athletes do not care about scholarship money (and evidently, not starting). I used to buy into this for a few of your guys if you remember and tried to sell it on here. If Iowa got $10 Million tomorrow, the problem would remain because outside of a few places, nobody spends that much on a sport that loses revenue.I like the idea of wrestlers getting paid because it keeps the sport going and let's them train. However, isn't the market for post grads really just a way of keeping your college program winning, though? Because there is no such market in the athletic world (unattached from the university system) for wrestlers professionally...unless they went MMA or aside from a few failed startups pro wrestling leagues. Iowa or Penn State is not making money on Thomas Gilman or Zain Retherford (when he graduates) except maybe by way of donations. If the salaries of these guys starts to get too outrageous for wrestling a couple of tourneys a year, then it will raise eyebrows and the have nots will start to complain, officially.
Right now, we have the benefit of nobody caring what wrestling does because we are small potatoes for NCAA rules folks that are focused on football and basketball. Diceman wants to see my posts as a hit on PSU...fine. But right now, PSU is the most high vis in our sport so I'm actually hoping they have their shit together and are above board. Because a scandal like that would rock the sport and the RTC system.
I would agree that the NCAA doesn't (sic) care none 'bout USA wrestling, but I believe you missed my point. Or maybe you got it...I can't figure it out.
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And I think you are overextending yourself on your humor
It's almost impossible for me NOT to overextend myself on humor.
I wouldn't call it bragging, at least in my case. I wouldn't say elite athletes don't care about scholarship money - everybody does. But I know for a fact that money is just one of many factors that go into deciding the school to attend. I've had personal experience with this and I also know some families very well that have done this. And I don't think it's much different than what many people who are not elite athletes do. In fact, I would surmise that be elite in athletics, just as being elite in academics, may make it more probable that money is less of a factor in the decision.
I take a different angle on this. I'm not asserting that any particular program is cheating, but if one or more is/are cheating, I think they need to be busted in a big way. As much as I'd like to keep the RTC system intact, I care a whole lot more about the integrity of the sport. Any program cheating and essentially buying championships needs to be taken down harshly by the NCAA, IMO. That kind of activity makes a mockery of the sport we all love so much and can't be tolerated under any circumstances. And I sure hope Iowa never gets involved with any shady business, because I'd feel the same way about the Iowa program if it were.And I think you are overextending yourself on your humor
I like the idea of wrestlers getting paid because it keeps the sport going and let's them train. However, isn't the market for post grads really just a way of keeping your college program winning, though? Because there is no such market in the athletic world (unattached from the university system) for wrestlers professionally...unless they went MMA or aside from a few failed startups pro wrestling leagues. Iowa or Penn State is not making money on Thomas Gilman or Zain Retherford (when he graduates) except maybe by way of donations. If the salaries of these guys starts to get too outrageous for wrestling a couple of tourneys a year, then it will raise eyebrows and the have nots will start to complain, officially.
Right now, we have the benefit of nobody caring what wrestling does because we are small potatoes for NCAA rules folks that are focused on football and basketball. Diceman wants to see my posts as a hit on PSU...fine. But right now, PSU is the most high vis in our sport so I'm actually hoping they have their shit together and are above board. Because a scandal like that would rock the sport and the RTC system.
I care about Iowa as much as the next guy but would also like to see us kick Russian and Iranian ass at Worlds and Olympics...I just wish everybody was not into UFC and instead, come over to the good side and support wrestling haha. USA Wrestling has shown that they suck at supporting athletes and the RTCs benefit both the grads and the current ones. Having a guy like Jordan Burroughs to mentor a James Green is huge. Same with DT being around Nolf and the other guys.
But outside of a few programs, it's a non competitive sport. NDSU could never beat Iowa in wrestling but it did in football. That's something you can sell...our lack thereof makes us expendable and I think some ADs at the lesser schools would love to get rid of wrestling for any given reason. Here's hoping nobody gives them one.
I agree that programs that cheat should be dealt with and appropriately.
I would be shocked if PSU was cheating and deeply disappointed. Do I think they are doing everything within the rules and right up to the rules and using their success and support system to full advantage in recruiting? Yes, I sure hope so.
I have had experience with more than a few coaches in terms of recruiting and never once has anything that I would know of as a violation been even suggested. Even contact rules were followed to a T. Yes, some have suggested things that may be viewed as unorthodox (like establishing residency - no this wasn't PSU), but still are within the NCAA rules. And they were suggested to benefit the athlete, not necessarily the college - although they would have benefited by gaining the recruit.
The coaches really have the most to lose by cheating. I guess someone who is desperate to hold on to his job may be tempted, but it seems to me that wrestling is one of the most stable sports in terms of being a head coach, so I would think that the incidence is fairly low and most violations are probably very minor in nature (committed out of ignorance rather than willfully).
Cael is making a lot of money at PSU. He has more support than he could have anywhere else. Does anyone really think that he is making back room deals and offers to recruits that could respond in many different ways, and jeopardizing the set-up he currently has?
I don't pretend to be an expert on ncaa rules and accounting. But just from a fairness perspective, if a coach can somehow save scholarship money by instead using money from a different pot, it seems to make for an uneven playing field.
Whether paying some ridiculous salary to a collegian for helping out at summer camps, or promising big bucks for competing at a wrestling club as a post graduate, thereby allowing a school to afford to fund multiple top tier guys at every weight - it doesn't seem right or fair.
Not directly accusing PSU of violations, since hard for me to know as an outsider. There are times when I wonder, given the cornucopia of top talent that heads there year after year.
I hope there is some oversight by the ncaa to help keep things consistent, transparent and fair to all.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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The only sports I care about are wrestling, MMA, and football. I really don't see why any wrestling fan wouldn't enjoy/appreciate MMA as well. It's an exciting sport with a lot more on the line than wrestling and more money to be made for the athletes. Also, just like with wrestling, there is always the possibility and opportunity for a fighter to come back from an extreme deficit. In wrestling, it's done with a pin; in MMA it's done with a KO or submission. Not many sports have that exciting comeback swing potential.
I wish there was more money to be made in Wrestling, but it's always going to be a fringe sport. It's too difficult and grueling to ever become mainstream. Most kids don't like having to suffer to achieve their dreams.
I believe it's a generational issue when it comes to MMA vs senior wrestling. USA has a history of little/no support outside the hardcore fan for senior level.
I come and go w MMA, mainly depends on a individual personalities and longevity. The turnover is enormous and confusing to follow most times, hence my sometimes waning for MMA
I come and go w MMA, mainly depends on a individual personalities and longevity. The turnover is enormous and confusing to follow most times, hence my sometimes waning for MMA
Nothing wrong with MMA, but I'd rather watch wrestling and see it supported more.
Although wrestling is a bit different because football doesn't have football clubs or football regional training centers, let's go down the road of your scenario. Are you saying that Alabama would enter a contract with a recruit to employ them at their "regional training center" after his career? Or are you saying that Saban would give the kid a wink, wink - we will hook you up even if you aren't very good and then the recruit and the parents would forgo maybe a 100,000 in scholarship money on the wink, wink?
And I don't think anyone is saying that the QB who won the Heisman at Alabama wouldn't be a pretty coveted entity by both Alabama AND Auburn after his collegiate career (if there was no NFL) in the assumed RTC situation.
Wasn't everybody on here bitchin' because Iowa didn't pony up enough money for Metcalf just, like a day ago?
Well there is a big difference between Metcalf(now as an adult and coach), then a 18 year wrestler and the potential benefits post graduate in the RTC. Not really apples and apples there
Iowa outraged at amount of money donated to PSU wrestling but at the same time they are passing the hat and trying to copy it.
Another idiot from the peanut gallery joins HR
Insightful post thanks for the contribution
Insightful post thanks for the contribution
I saw:
1 No one outraged at donations to PSU
2 A couple opining that something undue was being done with some of the money
3 Many wondered how the money could be used to enhance recruiting, legally
4 Most were envious of the amount and were inspired to try to match cash flow
If this is true, I bet the NCAA would be interested in more information about it.
Not real hard to figure out.
If in the past top talent spread out amongst teams because they wanted top scholarship $'s, and that has suddenly changed recently , then they are cheating. Something like that doesn't change dramatically because of that "fun" bs they try to sell. Apparently fun means getting paid. And deferring scholarship payments and calling them by another name doesn't change the fact that it is abusing the scholarship limits. If the NCAA wants to open that door, then by all means lets just put it right out on the table then. I would be willing to bet a great deal of money they don't want to go there and for damned good reasons.
If kids/parents have always said we don't care about scholly money, we just want to have fun, then I guess nothing to see here. (Rolling eyes emoticon)
If in the past top talent spread out amongst teams because they wanted top scholarship $'s, and that has suddenly changed recently , then they are cheating. Something like that doesn't change dramatically because of that "fun" bs they try to sell. Apparently fun means getting paid. And deferring scholarship payments and calling them by another name doesn't change the fact that it is abusing the scholarship limits. If the NCAA wants to open that door, then by all means lets just put it right out on the table then. I would be willing to bet a great deal of money they don't want to go there and for damned good reasons.
If kids/parents have always said we don't care about scholly money, we just want to have fun, then I guess nothing to see here. (Rolling eyes emoticon)
It's just a matter of time until it's figured out that Cael & staff secretly give all the "missed-recruits" $100K in hush money to not spill the beans. It's like a double-scholarship for Spencer Lee and helps ease the burden of dad's salary decrease from Carnegie Mellon days.
The reason the Suriano mess is dragging on is simply the negotiations process & coming up with a acceptable figure [which could be close to $1MIL given he's been on the "inside" for a year]...
To go even further, the sport has been a series of dynasties for the most part
"When (head coach) Dan Gable showed up at my house, I had all these full-rides from different places, and I had a half-ride at Iowa," Alger recalls. "My mom said, `Royce, you have to go for the golden ring.' I think of my mom a lot, because I came from basically a poor family, I had a full letter of intent on my table, and my mom said you have to take the golden ring, even if it's half. You will make your way."
http://www.hawkeyesports.com/news/2012/9/16/Mom_s_Blessing_Allows_Alger_to_Become_a_Hawkeye.aspx
Not a new thing. Not a Penn State thing.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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No one questions why a national champ takes a reduced scholarship to wrestle for a good program. The thing to question is why guys take reduced or no scholarship money to wrestle at a program where they will never see the line-up when they could be AA's on full rides at other schools.
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