100% On Topic and Civil Thread on AJ Ferrari's Wrestling Future

[MAGAman]

I wish it were just stupidity.

Solid

 

[Irishhawkeye2107]

I don't watch or read CNN.

I'm referring to Trump stating that the constitution should be suspended.

I didn't take the statement out of context. The "perfect phone call" is even worse in context. I've listened to the entire phone call.

If you think Pence did the right thing, then by definition, you're agreeing that Trump was wrong to call for the electoral votes to be thrown out. If the country just did what Trump has called for in his speech and in social media then our constitution would be suspended, and we'd have overturned the will of the people and overturned a fair democratic election and installed a dictator. This is an objective, indisputable fact and you and other cultists are twisting into a pretzel trying to justify and defend Trump.

I don't know what you're referring to with the DNC/Clinton. I assume the Russia investigation and Mueller report?

If so, that that investigation concluded that Russia's interference in the 2016 election was sweeping and systemic. The investigation resulted in a multitude of criminal convictions. They effectively outright said that the only reason Trump wasn't charged is because he is president. Aka, a two tiered justice system.

Excerpts below:

"The Mueller Report states that if the Special Counsel’s Office felt they could clear the president of wrongdoing, they would have said so. Instead, the Report explicitly states that it “does not exonerate” the President[10] and explains that the Office of Special Counsel “accepted” the Department of Justice policy that a sitting President cannot be indicted.[11]
The Mueller report details multiple episodes in which there is evidence that the President obstructed justice. The pattern of conduct and the manner in which the President sought to impede investigations—including through one-on-one meetings with senior officials—is damning to the President."

The reality is that your radical right wing propaganda media sources have spun the Mueller report as a fake witch hunt that proved Trump and his campaign's innocence and that there was no Russian interference. That is absolutely not what it concluded. You are clearly not at all informed of the facts.

Please explain to me what the Steele dossier is, who funded it, what sources were used to verify it’s contents, and whether they report was accurate. Then explain what was used as the basis of the Russia investigation.

Then explain why you feel the MSM did not report on the facts but instead ran with the narrative for 3 years? When you leave this information out of your post it shows blatant bias and the inability to understand what/how things unfolded.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

It's telling that you again take issue with me, yet don't take issue with any of the MAGA cultists who've brought up a multitude of political topics

Look on the bright side. At least @Inthecircle didn't create a thread referencing your handle that announced he was putting you on ignore with the obvious hope a groundswell of posters would play follow the leader.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

kids learning math not anal sex

69 ÷ 2 <> anal sex

 

[grapplefann]

Ill take rad right over prog left any day if you want protected nation, world dominance, strong economy, low tax gas and rates! Women not losing to men at sports, kids learning math not anal sex! How bout you leftie?

Geez maggot, give it rest already. No one is trying to turn your kids into hookers. It's a college wrestling forum, not Tinder.

 

[MAGAman]

Geez maggot, give it rest already. No one is trying to turn your kids into hookers. It's a college wrestling forum, not Tinder.

Only you and your party

 

[Hawkgma]

Only you and your party

Every accusation is a confession….

 

[SansAgain]

Can anyone point me to a wrestling message board, I don’t think my perter be actin right.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Can anyone point me to a wrestling message board, I don’t think my perter be actin right.

This ain't it chief

 

[ChiPackHawk]

I can tell when I’m talking to a CNN parrot. You all love to take a statement out of context and then decide the meaning and spread it as if your opinion were facts.
Real quick, don’t one what you’re referencing about Trump being a liar. Pence should have done what he felt was right, I believe he did. You’re lacking a ridiculous amount of contact when referencing Trumps call into the Georgia SOS (this alone reduces your credibility in my eyes to zero). Not sure where you live but some states accepted mail in ballots that did not meet the standards set forth by their laws. For instance my wife and I received a mail in ballot through the mail without requesting one. Biden won the election but I don’t believe it was an election that was handled properly everywhere around the country.

One quick question for you….

I was knowingly and blatantly lied to by the MSM for years in order to tear Trump down. They literally took a (DNC/Clinton campaign) paid and fabricated story with known holes and turned it into a 3 year investigation. National representatives were on news shows knowingly lying through their teeth…yet you choose to still trust these people….why?

You are far too on point for those who get their facts from morning Joe, Rachel, and Joy. When you try to educate those who think The View is hard hitting journalism, you have no shot. They’re lost.

 

[ZachJump]

Jesus

 

[Arbor1]

Please explain to me what the Steele dossier is, who funded it, what sources were used to verify it’s contents, and whether they report was accurate. Then explain what was used as the basis of the Russia investigation.

Then explain why you feel the MSM did not report on the facts but instead ran with the narrative for 3 years? When you leave this information out of your post it shows blatant bias and the inability to understand what/how things unfolded.

Huh, no response yet? Hope he's okay. Seems awfully chirpy otherwise. Sure seems like a reasonable question given the amount of emphasis his belief system demands from it.

 

[eb05]

Please explain to me what the Steele dossier is, who funded it, what sources were used to verify it’s contents, and whether they report was accurate. Then explain what was used as the basis of the Russia investigation.

Then explain why you feel the MSM did not report on the facts but instead ran with the narrative for 3 years? When you leave this information out of your post it shows blatant bias and the inability to understand what/how things unfolded.

i’m messing around on chat gpt this morning and put this in just for fun. **disclaimer: i’m not getting involved in politics on the wrestling board this is just a science experiment **


The Steele Dossier, formally known as the Trump-Russia dossier, is a collection of intelligence reports prepared by former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele. It was commissioned by a private research firm called Fusion GPS in 2016. The main funder of the dossier was initially a conservative publication, The Washington Free Beacon, which hired Fusion GPS for opposition research on multiple Republican candidates, including Donald Trump. Later, after the Republican primary, the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and the Hillary Clinton campaign started funding Fusion GPS's research, which eventually included Steele's work.

The sources used to verify the contents of the Steele Dossier were primarily informants and second-hand information, with Steele himself acting as a conduit for these reports. Some of these sources claimed to have knowledge of connections between Donald Trump and Russia, alleging activities like collusion and compromising information. However, many of these sources remain confidential and have not been independently verified.

The accuracy of the Steele Dossier remains a topic of controversy. Some claims in the dossier have been partially corroborated, while others have been debunked. For example, parts of the dossier alleged Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. election, which was subsequently confirmed by U.S. intelligence agencies. However, specific claims about Trump's alleged ties to Russia and compromising information have not been definitively proven.

The Russia investigation you're referring to likely pertains to the FBI's counterintelligence investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. election. This investigation, often referred to as the "Crossfire Hurricane" investigation, was launched in July 2016. It was not solely based on the Steele Dossier but was initiated due to multiple factors, including the release of hacked DNC emails by Russian operatives and George Papadopoulos, a Trump campaign aide, reportedly learning that Russia had "dirt" on Hillary Clinton.
In summary, the Steele Dossier is a collection of reports commissioned by political entities, primarily the DNC and the Clinton campaign, and funded through Fusion GPS. The accuracy of its contents remains a subject of debate, and the Russia investigation was initiated based on a combination of factors beyond just the dossier.

 

[Irishhawkeye2107]

i’m messing around on chat gpt this morning and put this in just for fun. **disclaimer: i’m not getting involved in politics on the wrestling board this is just a science experiment **


The Steele Dossier, formally known as the Trump-Russia dossier, is a collection of intelligence reports prepared by former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele. It was commissioned by a private research firm called Fusion GPS in 2016. The main funder of the dossier was initially a conservative publication, The Washington Free Beacon, which hired Fusion GPS for opposition research on multiple Republican candidates, including Donald Trump. Later, after the Republican primary, the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and the Hillary Clinton campaign started funding Fusion GPS's research, which eventually included Steele's work.

The sources used to verify the contents of the Steele Dossier were primarily informants and second-hand information, with Steele himself acting as a conduit for these reports. Some of these sources claimed to have knowledge of connections between Donald Trump and Russia, alleging activities like collusion and compromising information. However, many of these sources remain confidential and have not been independently verified.

The accuracy of the Steele Dossier remains a topic of controversy. Some claims in the dossier have been partially corroborated, while others have been debunked. For example, parts of the dossier alleged Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. election, which was subsequently confirmed by U.S. intelligence agencies. However, specific claims about Trump's alleged ties to Russia and compromising information have not been definitively proven.

The Russia investigation you're referring to likely pertains to the FBI's counterintelligence investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. election. This investigation, often referred to as the "Crossfire Hurricane" investigation, was launched in July 2016. It was not solely based on the Steele Dossier but was initiated due to multiple factors, including the release of hacked DNC emails by Russian operatives and George Papadopoulos, a Trump campaign aide, reportedly learning that Russia had "dirt" on Hillary Clinton.
In summary, the Steele Dossier is a collection of reports commissioned by political entities, primarily the DNC and the Clinton campaign, and funded through Fusion GPS. The accuracy of its contents remains a subject of debate, and the Russia investigation was initiated based on a combination of factors beyond just the dossier.

That’s pretty darn good. At this point, I would consider the accuracy to be zero and an obvious political hit job coordinated between the parties mentioned along with the MSM.

The important thing to remember is that they knew all of this for years while still going on television shows and blatantly lying about it.

 

[el dub]

i’m messing around on chat gpt this morning and put this in just for fun. **disclaimer: i’m not getting involved in politics on the wrestling board this is just a science experiment **


The Steele Dossier, formally known as the Trump-Russia dossier, is a collection of intelligence reports prepared by former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele. It was commissioned by a private research firm called Fusion GPS in 2016. The main funder of the dossier was initially a conservative publication, The Washington Free Beacon, which hired Fusion GPS for opposition research on multiple Republican candidates, including Donald Trump. Later, after the Republican primary, the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and the Hillary Clinton campaign started funding Fusion GPS's research, which eventually included Steele's work.

The sources used to verify the contents of the Steele Dossier were primarily informants and second-hand information, with Steele himself acting as a conduit for these reports. Some of these sources claimed to have knowledge of connections between Donald Trump and Russia, alleging activities like collusion and compromising information. However, many of these sources remain confidential and have not been independently verified.

The accuracy of the Steele Dossier remains a topic of controversy. Some claims in the dossier have been partially corroborated, while others have been debunked. For example, parts of the dossier alleged Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. election, which was subsequently confirmed by U.S. intelligence agencies. However, specific claims about Trump's alleged ties to Russia and compromising information have not been definitively proven.

The Russia investigation you're referring to likely pertains to the FBI's counterintelligence investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. election. This investigation, often referred to as the "Crossfire Hurricane" investigation, was launched in July 2016. It was not solely based on the Steele Dossier but was initiated due to multiple factors, including the release of hacked DNC emails by Russian operatives and George Papadopoulos, a Trump campaign aide, reportedly learning that Russia had "dirt" on Hillary Clinton.
In summary, the Steele Dossier is a collection of reports commissioned by political entities, primarily the DNC and the Clinton campaign, and funded through Fusion GPS. The accuracy of its contents remains a subject of debate, and the Russia investigation was initiated based on a combination of factors beyond just the dossier.

That’s been my basic understanding of the dossier in question.

 

[jneffer]

That’s pretty darn good. At this point, I would consider the accuracy to be zero and an obvious political hit job coordinated between the parties mentioned along with the MSM.

The important thing to remember is that they knew all of this for years while still going on television shows and blatantly lying about it.

asks for explanation. gets explanation. just says it's false with no further....explanation.

Perfection

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Huh, no response yet? Hope he's okay. Seems awfully chirpy otherwise. Sure seems like a reasonable question given the amount of emphasis his belief system demands from it.

The Mueller report was an independent investigation that didn't depend on the Steele Dossier. The Mueller report explicitly concluded that Russia interfered in the 2016 election. It resulted in a handful of convictions. It determined that the reason Trump wasn't indicted for obstruction is because he was a sitting president.

And the Mueller report/Russian interference stuff isn't even close to the primary problem I (and all other reasonable Americans) have with Trump. The problem is that he tried to overturn the 2020 election and said the constitution needs to be suspended.

For purposes of argument and simplicity, I could outright concede to you that the Russian stuff was all a hoax. That still wouldn't change Trump's deserved condemnation and the indisputable, objective fact that he attempted to install himself as a dictator. There is simply no justification or defense for what he did in response to the outcome of the 2020 election. Literally the only thing you and other GQP nutjobs can do is to point the finger at other politicians or issues and gish gallop to avoid responding and addressing the issue of Trump being a wannabe dictator. You know it's indefensible. The only reason you don't condemn it is because he's your cult leader. If Biden, Hilary, or any Democrat tried what he tried you'd condemn them to hell and want them locked up in prison for life (rightful so).

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

i’m messing around on chat gpt this morning and put this in just for fun. **disclaimer: i’m not getting involved in politics on the wrestling board this is just a science experiment **


The Steele Dossier, formally known as the Trump-Russia dossier, is a collection of intelligence reports prepared by former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele. It was commissioned by a private research firm called Fusion GPS in 2016. The main funder of the dossier was initially a conservative publication, The Washington Free Beacon, which hired Fusion GPS for opposition research on multiple Republican candidates, including Donald Trump. Later, after the Republican primary, the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and the Hillary Clinton campaign started funding Fusion GPS's research, which eventually included Steele's work.

The sources used to verify the contents of the Steele Dossier were primarily informants and second-hand information, with Steele himself acting as a conduit for these reports. Some of these sources claimed to have knowledge of connections between Donald Trump and Russia, alleging activities like collusion and compromising information. However, many of these sources remain confidential and have not been independently verified.

The accuracy of the Steele Dossier remains a topic of controversy. Some claims in the dossier have been partially corroborated, while others have been debunked. For example, parts of the dossier alleged Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. election, which was subsequently confirmed by U.S. intelligence agencies. However, specific claims about Trump's alleged ties to Russia and compromising information have not been definitively proven.

The Russia investigation you're referring to likely pertains to the FBI's counterintelligence investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. election. This investigation, often referred to as the "Crossfire Hurricane" investigation, was launched in July 2016. It was not solely based on the Steele Dossier but was initiated due to multiple factors, including the release of hacked DNC emails by Russian operatives and George Papadopoulos, a Trump campaign aide, reportedly learning that Russia had "dirt" on Hillary Clinton.
In summary, the Steele Dossier is a collection of reports commissioned by political entities, primarily the DNC and the Clinton campaign, and funded through Fusion GPS. The accuracy of its contents remains a subject of debate, and the Russia investigation was initiated based on a combination of factors beyond just the dossier.

Interesting.

I've taken this an additional step and input "does the steel dossier undermine the Mueller report" into chatgpt. Here is the response:

Steele Dossier and Mueller Report​

Default (GPT-3.5)

Does the Steele Dossier undermine the Mueller report?


The Steele Dossier and the Mueller report are separate documents that served different purposes. The Steele Dossier, compiled by former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele, contained unverified claims about alleged connections between Donald Trump and Russia. The Mueller report, on the other hand, was an investigation by Special Counsel Robert Mueller into Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election and possible obstruction of justice by the Trump administration.
The Steele Dossier played a limited role in the Mueller investigation. The Mueller report did not rely on the dossier as the primary source of its findings. Instead, it conducted its own investigation, which included interviews, documents, and evidence gathering.
While some have criticized the dossier for its unverified claims, it did not necessarily undermine the Mueller report's conclusions. The Mueller report presented its findings based on the evidence it collected during the investigation. Whether the dossier had any impact on public perception or political discourse is a matter of debate, but it was not a central piece of the Mueller investigation.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

If MAGA cultists got their information from chatgpt rather than the right wing propaganda networks, they'd be much more accurately informed.

 

[jneffer]

Interesting.

I've taken this an additional step and input "does the steel dossier undermine the Mueller report" into chatgpt. Here is the response:

​

Steele Dossier and Mueller Report​

Default (GPT-3.5)

Does the Steele Dossier undermine the Mueller report?


The Steele Dossier and the Mueller report are separate documents that served different purposes. The Steele Dossier, compiled by former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele, contained unverified claims about alleged connections between Donald Trump and Russia. The Mueller report, on the other hand, was an investigation by Special Counsel Robert Mueller into Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election and possible obstruction of justice by the Trump administration.
The Steele Dossier played a limited role in the Mueller investigation. The Mueller report did not rely on the dossier as the primary source of its findings. Instead, it conducted its own investigation, which included interviews, documents, and evidence gathering.
While some have criticized the dossier for its unverified claims, it did not necessarily undermine the Mueller report's conclusions. The Mueller report presented its findings based on the evidence it collected during the investigation. Whether the dossier had any impact on public perception or political discourse is a matter of debate, but it was not a central piece of the Mueller investigation.

you guys are under the mistaken impression that the goal is actual information here

all this guy wants is for you to say he is right...even if he's clearly not

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Next. Chatgpt

"Is Trump correct that the russian interference stuff is a hoax?

The claim that Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election is a "hoax" is a highly disputed and politically charged statement. It's important to note that multiple U.S. intelligence agencies, including the CIA, FBI, and NSA, have assessed that Russia did indeed interfere in the 2016 election. These assessments are based on substantial evidence, including cyberattacks, disinformation campaigns, and other tactics used by Russian actors.

Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation, as well as the Senate Intelligence Committee's investigation, also concluded that there was Russian interference in the election. The Mueller report detailed numerous incidents of Russian disinformation and hacking operations aimed at influencing the election.

While opinions on the extent and impact of Russian interference may vary, the consensus among U.S. intelligence agencies and investigators is that it did occur. Trump's characterization of it as a "hoax" has been a subject of significant debate and controversy.

 

[el dub]

Next. Chatgpt

"Is Trump correct that the russian interference stuff is a hoax?

The claim that Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election is a "hoax" is a highly disputed and politically charged statement. It's important to note that multiple U.S. intelligence agencies, including the CIA, FBI, and NSA, have assessed that Russia did indeed interfere in the 2016 election. These assessments are based on substantial evidence, including cyberattacks, disinformation campaigns, and other tactics used by Russian actors.

Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation, as well as the Senate Intelligence Committee's investigation, also concluded that there was Russian interference in the election. The Mueller report detailed numerous incidents of Russian disinformation and hacking operations aimed at influencing the election.

While opinions on the extent and impact of Russian interference may vary, the consensus among U.S. intelligence agencies and investigators is that it did occur. Trump's characterization of it as a "hoax" has been a subject of significant debate and controversy.

But….. but……. butt…..

 

[Irishhawkeye2107]

But….. but……. butt…..

lol, keep trying…. You’ll never get there though because the facts just aren’t on your side.

 

[el dub]

lol, keep trying…. You’ll never get there though because the facts just aren’t on your side.

Huh? I’m guessing you don’t know my position on this topic. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing, imo.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

lol, keep trying…. You’ll never get there though because the facts just aren’t on your side.

The facts were just put in front of you. You just selectively choose which facts to believe. Facts don't care about your feelings or which cult you're in.

Let me guess, you think the FBI, CIA, and NSA are just part of the deep state cabal out to get poor little Trump?

 

[Irishhawkeye2107]

The facts were just put in front of you. You just selectively choose which facts to believe. Facts don't care about your feelings or which cult you're in.

Let me guess, you think the FBI, CIA, and NSA are just part of the deep state cabal out to get poor little Trump?

Who are Lisa Page and Peter Strzok?

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Who are Lisa Page and Peter Strzok?

Ignore objective facts that can't be defended condemning Trump and Gish Gallop instead.

 

[el dub]

Who are Lisa Page and Peter Strzok?

Patriots.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

asks for explanation. gets explanation. just says it's false with no further....explanation.

Perfection

The important thing to remember is that they knew all

this would be the essence of some response.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

Patriots.

History will look kindly upon them after Trump is convicted. MAGA cult will either flee the sinking ship like rats and pretend they hadn't been in the cult or they'll go down with the ship and live the remainder of their lives in treasonous delusion.

 

[el dub]

16 years in Congress, never passed a bill.

If you haven't seen this before, it needs to be watched.

View embedded media

Will the GOP's baffling "ignarrogance" finally be its undoing?

Even if Jim Jordan wins, the speaker's chair will still be vacant. What the hell happened to the Republican Party?

www.salon.com

 

[jneffer]

Patriots.

2 FBI agents expressing political opinions invalidates anything that ever comes from any part of the DOJ...even parts that trump appointed

notice no specifics are given...just names thrown out

there is no "winning" this argument when just saying names is the response to actual facts presented

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

If MAGA cultists got their information from chatgpt rather than the right wing propaganda networks, they'd be much more accurately informed.

But big data is run by libbies and the deep state is controlling the AI optimization goal. So it's to be expected that ChatGPT would promulgate disinformation, no? 😉

 

[Irishhawkeye2107]

2 FBI agents expressing political opinions invalidates anything that ever comes from any part of the DOJ...even parts that trump appointed

notice no specifics are given...just names thrown out

there is no "winning" this argument when just saying names is the response to actual facts presented

lol, you all are really determined to keep your heads buried in the sand. If it were two random agents you might have something. Instead these two were directly involved in the sham crossfire Hurricane.

Their text explicitly stated that they were working against the incoming president and that’s also what their actions showed. That is not patriotism that is literally treason.

Curious if any of you feel the Biden’s are dirty?

 

[jneffer]

lol, you all are really determined to keep your heads buried in the sand. If it were two random agents you might have something. Instead these two were directly involved in the sham crossfire Hurricane.

Their text explicitly stated that they were working against the incoming president and that’s also what their actions showed. That is not patriotism that is literally treason.

Curious if any of you feel the Biden’s are dirty?

you'd think then that the trump appointed AG/DOJ leadership would have prosecuted that treason...but I'm sure you have some kind of deep state excuse for that too

it doesn't matter if I FEEL the bidens are dirty, it's what the facts and inveatigations show. And if the facts and investigations show that they are, then prosecute away.

Just because I generally or even loosely support a president doesn't mean I think it's unfair to prosecute them...that's your thing

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

lol, you all are really determined to keep your heads buried in the sand. If it were two random agents you might have something. Instead these two were directly involved in the sham crossfire Hurricane.

Their text explicitly stated that they were working against the incoming president and that’s also what their actions showed. That is not patriotism that is literally treason.

Curious if any of you feel the Biden’s are dirty?

And you're yet to comment or condemn the former president from trying to overthrow an election and install himself as dictator. Russia stuff is all irrelevant to the fact that Trump tried to end democracy.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

Patriots.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/05/908016924/peter-strzok-notorious-ex-g-man-explains-himself-and-takes-aim-at-trump

Who are Lisa Page and Peter Strzok?

From the article*, it would seem they were star-crossed lovers who weren't Trump fans, worked for the justice department, and tried to do their job as best they could given their circumstance.

*NPR is obviously only one notch below MSNBC where it liberal propaganda is concerned.

 

[Sett1997]

Can anyone point me to a wrestling message board, I don’t think my perter be actin right.

As I've mentioned before, the wrestling discussion is on the OT BBQ thread. 😆

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

Their text explicitly stated that they were working against the incoming president and that’s also what their actions showed.

I would love to see any evidence that showed a text stating they were actively working on anything they were not assigned, and that actions they took were improper. I haven't seen that.

If you have the evidence please post. As far as I can tell, they privately admitted to each others confidence using government cell phones that they were less than Trump supporters.

 

[MAGAman]

History will look kindly upon them after Trump is convicted. MAGA cult will either flee the sinking ship like rats and pretend they hadn't been in the cult or they'll go down with the ship and live the remainder of their lives in treasonous delusion.

Sorry here to stay. He will win 24. His vp will win next 2. Dem bs party will go away. Utopia!