B1G Forfeiture Policy

[tomhawk80907]

here is a personal story for you to think about, my mother who is 90 years old was diagnosed with kidney cancer and they scheduled to remove her kidney tomorrow originally, but she lives in Arkansas where the vaccination rate is low and Covid is surging, they had to postpone her surgery until September 28, a month delay, because the ICU is filled up with covid patients, the vast majority unvaccinated. At her age with a significant surgery they want to make sure they have a ICU bed available. Yeah I get it probably won't affect her outcome and yeah she is old so what the heck right... but don't tell yourself the refusal to get vaccinated doesn't have implications for other people.. it does, but just keep on telling people you heard somebody had a bad reaction to it or a healthcare worker didn't want it. The truth is the vaccine works and the vast majority of ICU beds are filled with unvaccinated morons....

Sorry to hear about your mother. It must be a difficult situation to go through.

I’m sure you recognize this is a two sided coin. Suppose in time it is determined that the vaccine has very detrimental effects. is it your position that, that is just collateral damage for all those who got the shot to free up beds.

there are no winners in this situation we find ourselves. Instead we should vent our anger at those people and institutions that unleashed this on the world. As it stands we are all fighting among ourselves while they sit in the background laughing.

 

[KFsdisciple]

Sorry to hear about your mother. It must be a difficult situation to go through.

I’m sure you recognize this is a two sided coin. Suppose in time it is determined that the vaccine has very detrimental effects. is it your position that, that is just collateral damage for all those who got the shot to free up beds.

there are no winners in this situation we find ourselves. Instead we should vent our anger at those people and institutions that unleashed this on the world. As it stands we are all fighting among ourselves while they sit in the background laughing.

100% this.

 

[bozotheclown]

check out Israel... they have Pfizer as their primary vaccine company, they are per capita way more vaccinated than we are, over 70% of their population 12 and older is vaccinated, and their minister of health is reporting over 60% of their hospitalizations and deaths are vaccinated cases now.

Thanks for posting that I had not heard that and so I checked it out. I didn't come up with the exact same info you did. From the article I saw:
"according to Health Ministry data, the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people over age 60 (178.7 per 100,000) was nine times more than the rate among fully vaccinated people of the same age category, and the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people in the under-60 crowd (3.2 per 100,000) was a little more than double the rate among vaccinated people in that age bracket."
Nobody said the vaccine is perfect, but I would guess nearly all competent medical Dr.s believe the vaccine helps. It is free and effective. Just this well its my choice it doesn't affect anyone else is not true. Plus all this boogaboo about the unforseen consequences of the vaccine seem weak, is there some chance sure, but vaccines have been effective and safe in the past, why won't this one be. And hundreds of millions of people that have recieved the vaccine with very very few issues. It is one of the true miracles of modern medical science in my opinion to go from a seeing a novel corona virus to delivery of an effective and apparently safe vaccine in 1 year. For the guy who's 95 year old grandpa died and it was seen as a blessing i get that too. But my mom is 90, sharp and healthy. My She is a retired nurse and organized the vaccination plan with the local pharmacy for her retirement village where they had 243 out of 244 residents get vaccinated. Anyway you do you, but please don't spout partial facts or heresay that the vaccine is not safe or effective or that not getting vaccinated doesn't effect anyone else. Although I wish i could hold you down and vaccinate you i believe in free will. Good luck to you.

 

[KFsdisciple]

Thanks for posting that I had not heard that and so I checked it out. I didn't come up with the exact same info you did. From the article I saw:
"according to Health Ministry data, the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people over age 60 (178.7 per 100,000) was nine times more than the rate among fully vaccinated people of the same age category, and the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people in the under-60 crowd (3.2 per 100,000) was a little more than double the rate among vaccinated people in that age bracket."
Nobody said the vaccine is perfect, but I would guess nearly all competent medical Dr.s believe the vaccine helps. It is free and effective. Just this well its my choice it doesn't affect anyone else is not true. Plus all this boogaboo about the unforseen consequences of the vaccine seem weak, is there some chance sure, but vaccines have been effective and safe in the past, why won't this one be. And hundreds of millions of people that have recieved the vaccine with very very few issues. It is one of the true miracles of modern medical science in my opinion to go from a seeing a novel corona virus to delivery of an effective and apparently safe vaccine in 1 year. For the guy who's 95 year old grandpa died and it was seen as a blessing i get that too. But my mom is 90, sharp and healthy. My She is a retired nurse and organized the vaccination plan with the local pharmacy for her retirement village where they had 243 out of 244 residents get vaccinated. Anyway you do you, but please don't spout partial facts or heresay that the vaccine is not safe or effective or that not getting vaccinated doesn't effect anyone else. Although I wish i could hold you down and vaccinate you i believe in free will. Good luck to you.

I'm glad you were able to find some information that sort of backs up my claim. I think its normal for people to be skeptical of a vaccine created in months for a "novel" illness. So not only was the illness new, but we were able to come up with a vaccine within months that is supposed to be safe and effective. We are seeing in real time that the efficacy is waning at best hence why a third booster shot is now needed within the first year, not to mention we were not sold on this vaccine as being a therapeutic... we were sold on it being the cure. That's why after it was available to all adults the mask mandates were lifted across the country. It didn't take long for them to realize that the efficacy wasn't complete, and even fully vaccinated individuals were advised to return to masks.

Aside from the technology being new, we've never mass-vaccinated the entire world before like this. There's never been an approved vaccine for an illness in less than 20-30 years prior to Covid... and we got this in months?

Factor in that we've probably never been told the whole truth on the origins of the virus and its not hard to understand why a large portion of the population just has no idea what's fact and what's fiction at this point.

 

[ping72]

I'm only pointing out that when I have received "vaccines" for other viruses/illnesses etc, I was never told, well after you get the measles vaccine, you could potentially get the measles still, and you could possibly give it to another person... I've had 1 actual vaccine for the measles no need for boosters... and 40 years later no measles.

now if you want to admit/argue that these series of shots aren't actual vaccines, they are therapeutics we can have a real and honest discussion about what it is people are getting injected with.

You’ve never had a flu shot, then?

 

[hawkfeever]

I'm only pointing out that when I have received "vaccines" for other viruses/illnesses etc, I was never told, well after you get the measles vaccine, you could potentially get the measles still, and you could possibly give it to another person... I've had 1 actual vaccine for the measles no need for boosters... and 40 years later no measles.

now if you want to admit/argue that these series of shots aren't actual vaccines, they are therapeutics we can have a real and honest discussion about what it is people are getting injected with.

When you hit your 50s and you don't get a Shingles vax, good luck if you get them. The people I know who did not who get one said they wished like hell they would have gotten the vax as they were miserable.

 

[goodbyebobby]

check out Israel... they have Pfizer as their primary vaccine company, they are per capita way more vaccinated than we are, over 70% of their population 12 and older is vaccinated, and their minister of health is reporting over 60% of their hospitalizations and deaths are vaccinated cases now.

You use Israel as an example? Dude, everyone masked up hates them.
You can do better 🤣

 

[goodbyebobby]

You’ve never had a flu shot, then?

Flu shots are right there with Covid vaccinations for me. Never had one and somehow no flu either.
How in the world does this happen, or not happen?

 

[KFsdisciple]

When you hit your 50s and you don't get a Shingles vax, good luck if you get them. The people I know who did not who get one said they wished like hell they would have gotten the vax as they were miserable.

I'm not anti-vaccine, I'm anti-experiments... I'm a military veteran, I've been more vaccinated than most, even vaccinated against anthrax as I served in Iraq for OIF/OEF. So I'm not a science denier, anti-vaxer, conspiracy theorist... I'm just a guy who isn't sold on the flip flopping, mixed messaging, and timeline for the virus and its accompanying vaccine.

 

[ping72]

I do, with diet and exercise.
Don't need Uncle Fauci telling me what to do. Anyone who wants to listen to him is free to do so, makes no difference to me.

Diet and exercise? Like this guy?

Former Broncos nutrition guru says get vaccinated as he endures long hospital stay because of COVID-19

Former Broncos fitness and nutrition guru Bill Phillips’ message for Coloradans is to the point: Get vaccinated against COVID-19.

www.denverpost.com

 

[littlez]

Diet and exercise? Like this guy?

Former Broncos nutrition guru says get vaccinated as he endures long hospital stay because of COVID-19

Former Broncos fitness and nutrition guru Bill Phillips’ message for Coloradans is to the point: Get vaccinated against COVID-19.

www.denverpost.com

He just hasn’t been as lucky as Bobby and his friends. He just can’t explain it!

 

[gojojo]

I really hope Iowa's 30% unvaccinated rate has dropped over the last few weeks. Having the most unvaccinated players in the B1G is an emb

Iowa is in great shape with vaccinations. It won't be an issue for us at all.

Less than 10 guys are unvaxed and they don't see the field.

 

[hawktech]

here is a personal story for you to think about, my mother who is 90 years old was diagnosed with kidney cancer and they scheduled to remove her kidney tomorrow originally, but she lives in Arkansas where the vaccination rate is low and Covid is surging, they had to postpone her surgery until September 28, a month delay, because the ICU is filled up with covid patients, the vast majority unvaccinated. At her age with a significant surgery they want to make sure they have a ICU bed available. Yeah I get it probably won't affect her outcome and yeah she is old so what the heck right... but don't tell yourself the refusal to get vaccinated doesn't have implications for other people.. it does, but just keep on telling people you heard somebody had a bad reaction to it or a healthcare worker didn't want it. The truth is the vaccine works and the vast majority of ICU beds are filled with unvaccinated morons....

Hope you mama can get her treatment soon! And fight threw this to end her days happy

 

[goodbyebobby]

Diet and exercise? Like this guy?

Former Broncos nutrition guru says get vaccinated as he endures long hospital stay because of COVID-19

Former Broncos fitness and nutrition guru Bill Phillips’ message for Coloradans is to the point: Get vaccinated against COVID-19.

www.denverpost.com

One example. I'm absolutely not saying it can't happen to someone who's healthy but I'm still betting on me, mainly because there are so very few examples like this anyone can produce.

 

[k-man4690]

Iowa is in great shape with vaccinations. It won't be an issue for us at all.

Less than 10 guys are unvaxed and they don't see the field.

Is this accurate? A source would be nice to have for that info.

9 pages of idiots and all I wanted to know was the current vaccination level for the team.

 

[DodgerHawki]

Is this accurate? A source would be nice to have for that info.

9 pages of idiots and all I wanted to know was the current vaccination level for the team.

you've come to the wrong place for a simple answer brother.

 

[praguehawk]

Iowa is in great shape with vaccinations. It won't be an issue for us at all.

Less than 10 guys are unvaxed and they don't see the field.

Source please. This great news of true.

 

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

Your clients are idiots.

Vaccine mandates for work are legal.

A private company is allowed to mandate vaccines for their staff members, so long as they provide an exemption for medical or sincerely held religious reasons.

Stay in your lane and don't get personal.

Unless you are a lawyer working on the vaccine cases, I'm reasonably certain you know absolutely nothing about HIPAA, ADA, 9th Amendment privacy claims (if a public actor pressures a private employer-like threatening to cut off their Medicare/Medicaid reimbursement), the Nuremburg Rule, 21 USC 360 (bbb-3)(e)(1)(A)(ii) & (iii)
otherwise known as the Emergency Use Authorization section of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic
Act, and about a dozen other laws, both common and statutory. Have you done much litigating of Iowa's equal employment laws?

Moreover, the enthusiasm for mandatory vaxing might just wane when the coerced recipients of a vax has one of the more common ADRs or dies from the shot and the class actions start.

Did you even know that the CDC designates someone as not vaxed if they die of covid within fourteen days of being vaxxed? Did you know the actual text of the recent ruling by the FDS approving a vaccine is a product that won't be available until next year? That is why the current vaccines will remain available only pursuant to the EUA-it protects the manufacturer but not the employer from liability for an ADR.

Your name calling did provide a fine example of the deluded mass psychotic society. Just the mere thought that my clients held different views on the vax than yours, and sought legal remedies to prevent the vax made you so angry you had to call them names. ​

It was questionable until the FDA full approval and now we have that so yes.

And that religious loophole is a mile wide.

Right now it is so hard to find workers many employers can't push it as hard as they might normally.

Except even the first part is not true. The FDA approved a future vaccine but everything on the market is still being used through EUA. Once something is approved it looses its EUA liability exemption. None of these producers are going to issue a vaccine without some federal liability protection.

This isn't really fair. I spent four hours researching this issue today. It is very complex and the law is by no means settled. This fight involves a wider variety or legal theories, many of which are not seen together very often. Hell there probably isn't even an ALR Fed on the topic-well maybe, I'm not quite that deep into the rabbit hole.


​

 

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

On the risk/reward scale taking an injection that no one can tell you what the longterm effects are when there is a 99.xx survivable rate doesn’t add up. Add to that the over the top incessant push from the government, hollywood and sports figures is just a little too peculiar.

Seriously anyone who is vaccinated having to worry about someone who isn’t is a first in the rollout of vaccines. As has already been brought up when you get your MMR, diphtheria, polio or any other of the various vaccines you’ve never been warned or worried about those that didn’t get them. Why now.

Group think in a society gripped by delusion.

 

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

check out Israel... they have Pfizer as their primary vaccine company, they are per capita way more vaccinated than we are, over 70% of their population 12 and older is vaccinated, and their minister of health is reporting over 60% of their hospitalizations and deaths are vaccinated cases now.

Those are just actual facts. How dare you, Sir. Questioning the people who have gotten almost everything wrong, created a national panic and sharp, but at least short crushing recession all for the purpose of pushing political dissent is unpatriotic. You must be Nazi, or at least a Klansman to introduce actual statistics in this conversation.

 

[grayhair81]

Stay in your lane and don't get personal.

Unless you are a lawyer working on the vaccine cases, I'm reasonably certain you know absolutely nothing about HIPAA, ADA, 9th Amendment privacy claims (if a public actor pressures a private employer-like threatening to cut off their Medicare/Medicaid reimbursement), the Nuremburg Rule, 21 USC 360 (bbb-3)(e)(1)(A)(ii) & (iii)
otherwise known as the Emergency Use Authorization section of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic
Act, and about a dozen other laws, both common and statutory. Have you done much litigating of Iowa's equal employment laws?

Moreover, the enthusiasm for mandatory vaxing might just wane when the coerced recipients of a vax has one of the more common ADRs or dies from the shot and the class actions start.

Did you even know that the CDC designates someone as not vaxed if they die of covid within fourteen days of being vaxxed? Did you know the actual text of the recent ruling by the FDS approving a vaccine is a product that won't be available until next year? That is why the current vaccines will remain available only pursuant to the EUA-it protects the manufacturer but not the employer from liability for an ADR.

Your name calling did provide a fine example of the deluded mass psychotic society. Just the mere thought that my clients held different views on the vax than yours, and sought legal remedies to prevent the vax made you so angry you had to call them names. ​

Except even the first part is not true. The FDA approved a future vaccine but everything on the market is still being used through EUA. Once something is approved it looses its EUA liability exemption. None of these producers are going to issue a vaccine without some federal liability protection.

This isn't really fair. I spent four hours researching this issue today. It is very complex and the law is by no means settled. This fight involves a wider variety or legal theories, many of which are not seen together very often. Hell there probably isn't even an ALR Fed on the topic-well maybe, I'm not quite that deep into the rabbit hole.


​

Oh, man. You are now going to be a bigger "dumb ass" than me to Fran. He will undoubtedly post a link to an article he hasn't fully read and couldn't summarize to prove you wrong and support the vax mandate initiative. The only difference between him and Joe on OT is that the latter sprinkles in a big word here or there to persuade people he knows what he is talking about.
I appreciate the legal contributions you and Aurora make here. I hope you will keep it coming.

 

[KFsdisciple]

As remote as the risks might be that 5 years, 10 years down the road these shots COULD be cancerous, or 10 minutes later they could be lethal, or a week later, it’s my choice and my choice alone to assume that risk. We each have to weigh the pros and cons… no business, no government mandate, and no fellow citizen has the right to demand I assume that risk no matter how small they might be.

you can point to seatbelt laws or some other safety law to uphold your argument except the science is settled on seatbelts. In this case we can’t decide what the shots actually do. Do they stop infection? No. Do they stop you from spreading infection? No. Do they lower your risk of hospitalization? Maybe. How do we measure that risk? It’s tough to quantify since we don’t know EXACTLY how many cases we have at anytime since the virus has such a wide range of affects, you could be asymptomatic to being in the ICU… are you more likely to be in the ICU if un-vaxed? Maybe, so instead of being 1 out of 500 cases that wind up in the hospital, maybe you’re one in 2,000? There’s no real way of knowing what those numbers REALLY are.

both sides can claim the other is being selfish, but frankly I see it as one side being nosey and needs to learn to mind your business. You’re demanding others take a risk for an experiment because it seems your shot won’t work unless I get mine? Your mask won’t work unless I wear mine? Your vitamins won’t work if I don’t take mine? Your seatbelt doesn't work unless I wear mine?

 

[bozotheclown]

Those are just actual facts. How dare you, Sir. Questioning the people who have gotten almost everything wrong, created a national panic and sharp, but at least short crushing recession all for the purpose of pushing political dissent is unpatriotic. You must be Nazi, or at least a Klansman to introduce actual statistics in this conversation.

if you dig deeper into his stats, they are not correct as presented.

 

[goodbyebobby]

I'm not anti-vaccine, I'm anti-experiments... I'm a military veteran, I've been more vaccinated than most, even vaccinated against anthrax as I served in Iraq for OIF/OEF. So I'm not a science denier, anti-vaxer, conspiracy theorist... I'm just a guy who isn't sold on the flip flopping, mixed messaging, and timeline for the virus and its accompanying vaccine.

Thank you for your service.

 

[KFsdisciple]

if you dig deeper into his stats, they are not correct as presented.

I’m down to clown, exactly how are the incorrect as presented? How are they missing context?

 

[DodgerHawki]

if you dig deeper into his stats, they are not correct as presented.

Bozo, this is pretty much what I have seen from actual published studies. In addition, Andrew Bostom, who is not a rando (he's a medical doctor and epidimilogist. He shared a study on the situation in Israel. I would recommend people read it for themselves.



A key thing there is that the Israeli study showed far superior immunity from natural immunity (meaning those who had COVID and recovered without any vaccine) than from those with just the two-dose Pfizer vaccine. This is not made up. It shows that natural immunity is the best type of immunity. This should be great news as we have had millions in the U.S. who have had COVID and recovered. But the conversation ends at "get vaccinated or you want people to die."

 

[tomhawk80907]

I heard a report, (do your own research), the other day that in 2010 or 2011 Harvard did a study on the Vaers reporting system. They concluded that ONLY 1% of adverse events are being documented in the CDC system. There contention was that the system was too inefficient in most physicians workflow to be bothered with entering the data.

Currently VAERS is reporting roughly 5300, ( here’s where getting older suck I can’t remember if it was straight up deaths or adverse events) from the vax. If the study was correct and nothing has changed we’re talking an order of magnitude of half a million people.

 

[DodgerHawki]

I heard a report, (do your own research), the other day that in 2010 or 2011 Harvard did a study on the Vaers reporting system. They concluded that ONLY 1% of adverse events are being documented in the CDC system. There contention was that the system was too inefficient in most physicians workflow to be bothered with entering the data.

Currently VAERS is reporting roughly 5300, ( here’s where getting older suck I can’t remember if it was straight up deaths or adverse events) from the vax. If the study was correct and nothing has changed we’re talking an order of magnitude of half a million people.

There is no way to know for sure. As you said, VAERS is reliant on physicians self reporting. It is not surprising that there are more incidents logged as there are well beyond 100M people who have been vaccinated in the U.S. So the higher number of VAERS incidents reported doesn't mean that the COVID vaccines are dangerous (statistically) or not safe.

 

[KFsdisciple]

There is no way to know for sure. As you said, VAERS is reliant on physicians self reporting. It is not surprising that there are more incidents logged as there are well beyond 100M people who have been vaccinated in the U.S. So the higher number of VAERS incidents reported doesn't mean that the COVID vaccines are dangerous (statistically) or not safe.

so what would, other than Dr. Fauci saying he determined they are not safe or effective? Remember for every drug the FDA has pulled, at one time they deemed it safe and effective. So even they get it wrong.

 

[gojojo]

Source please. This great news of true.

From a guy who works closely with the football team.

 

[MepoDawg#]

Source please. This great news of true.

Per KF in his last interview.

 

[tomhawk80907]

There is no way to know for sure. As you said, VAERS is reliant on physicians self reporting. It is not surprising that there are more incidents logged as there are well beyond 100M people who have been vaccinated in the U.S. So the higher number of VAERS incidents reported doesn't mean that the COVID vaccines are dangerous (statistically) or not safe.

Dodger I’m not sure I track with what you are saying. The more adverse effects that are recorded in this system is documentation of the safety record of a particular vaccine. Let’s pretend the Harvard study is accurate. If the actual number of incidents is 500k we do have a serious problem.

However, let’s put that aside. At the very least the reporting system is a means of comparing adverse events between various drugs. For instance, it has been stated that during H1N1 epidemic something like 50 people died from during the development of a vaccine to combat that virus. They immediately stopped further development of that vaccine deeming it too dangerous. Again, if we are dealing with 500k events, or even ten percent of that number, 50,000, we have an entirely different animal on our hands than what we were dealing with just a decade ago with swine flu.

 

[DodgerHawki]

Dodger I’m not sure I track with what you are saying. The more adverse effects that are recorded in this system is documentation of the safety record of a particular vaccine. Let’s pretend the Harvard study is accurate. If the actual number of incidents is 500k we do have a serious problem.

However, let’s put that aside. At the very least the reporting system is a means of comparing adverse events between various drugs. For instance, it has been stated that during H1N1 epidemic something like 50 people died from during the development of a vaccine to combat that virus. They immediately stopped further development of that vaccine deeming it too dangerous. Again, if we are dealing with 500k events, or even ten percent of that number, 50,000, we have an entirely different animal on our hands than what we were dealing with just a decade ago with swine flu.

i'm not disagreeing with you really. With VAERS, those items obviously have to be verified. You are correct, we don't know the long-term impacts for some time. A coroner in England ruled the cause of death for a 44-year old TV broadcaster was due to blood clots in her brain shortly after getting the Astra Zeneca vaccine.

Lisa Shaw: Presenter's death due to complications of Covid vaccine - BBC News

I'm not saying this as a reason to not get vaccinated, it's a very reasonable decision for people who are older or have medical issues to definitely get vaccinated (I did). But to pretend that there are zero issues with vaccines isn't correct.

 

[KFsdisciple]

i'm not disagreeing with you really. With VAERS, those items obviously have to be verified. You are correct, we don't know the long-term impacts for some time. A coroner in England ruled the cause of death for a 44-year old TV broadcaster was due to blood clots in her brain shortly after getting the Astra Zeneca vaccine.

Lisa Shaw: Presenter's death due to complications of Covid vaccine - BBC News

I'm not saying this as a reason to not get vaccinated, it's a very reasonable decision for people who are older or have medical issues to definitely get vaccinated (I did). But to pretend that there are zero issues with vaccines isn't correct.

I notice Frandaman has nothing to say all of a sudden. For a guy who seems to have all the answers a cat sure got his tongue when presented with even just a smidge of pushback.

 

[DodgerHawki]

I notice Frandaman has nothing to say all of a sudden. For a guy who seems to have all the answers a cat sure got his tongue when presented with even just a smidge of pushback.

Don't want to make any of this personal with any poster. If there's one thing about COVID, it's that no one, and most specifically me, should claim to have all the answers or predict the future.

I just wish the actual conversations were taking place in our media and with the CDC about the real effects of natural immunity, the risk to people based on age and co-morbidities, treatment options that are promising such as monoclonal antibodies, the numerous studies done on the efficacy of masks over the past 50 years, etc. Let people make informed decisions. But instead it all is reduced to calling names if another person doesn't agree with me/my point of view 100%.

 

[KFsdisciple]

Don't want to make any of this personal with any poster. If there's one thing about COVID, it's that no one, and most specifically me, should claim to have all the answers or predict the future.

I just wish the actual conversations were taking place in our media and with the CDC about the real effects of natural immunity, the risk to people based on age and co-morbidities, treatment options that are promising such as monoclonal antibodies, the numerous studies done on the efficacy of masks over the past 50 years, etc. Let people make informed decisions. But instead it all is reduced to calling names if another person doesn't agree with me/my point of view 100%.

You’re 100% right. There are whole different sides to this conversation that no one is having, and frankly it’s taboo to try. The overwhelming need for the government to tell everyone to get vaccinated seems to override everything we’ve ever known about the natural laws of virology and Immunology. I think they’re afraid if they release this data to the masses people would choose to take their chances without the vaccine.

not to mention, it’s a tough narrative to roll with at this point because certain news agencies have been so over the top negative about everything.

 

[Dargo]

Sorry to hear about your mother. It must be a difficult situation to go through.

I’m sure you recognize this is a two sided coin. Suppose in time it is determined that the vaccine has very detrimental effects. is it your position that, that is just collateral damage for all those who got the shot to free up beds.

there are no winners in this situation we find ourselves. Instead we should vent our anger at those people and institutions that unleashed this on the world. As it stands we are all fighting among ourselves while they sit in the background laughing.

Do some research on vaccines. Almost all side effects occur within 2-3 weeks of vaccination, and there haven't been any documented cases of adverse events to any vaccine longer than 2 months after vaccination. So your flip side is null and void.

 

[Dargo]

As remote as the risks might be that 5 years, 10 years down the road these shots COULD be cancerous, or 10 minutes later they could be lethal, or a week later, it’s my choice and my choice alone to assume that risk. We each have to weigh the pros and cons… no business, no government mandate, and no fellow citizen has the right to demand I assume that risk no matter how small they might be.

you can point to seatbelt laws or some other safety law to uphold your argument except the science is settled on seatbelts. In this case we can’t decide what the shots actually do. Do they stop infection? No. Do they stop you from spreading infection? No. Do they lower your risk of hospitalization? Maybe. How do we measure that risk? It’s tough to quantify since we don’t know EXACTLY how many cases we have at anytime since the virus has such a wide range of affects, you could be asymptomatic to being in the ICU… are you more likely to be in the ICU if un-vaxed? Maybe, so instead of being 1 out of 500 cases that wind up in the hospital, maybe you’re one in 2,000? There’s no real way of knowing what those numbers REALLY are.

both sides can claim the other is being selfish, but frankly I see it as one side being nosey and needs to learn to mind your business. You’re demanding others take a risk for an experiment because it seems your shot won’t work unless I get mine? Your mask won’t work unless I wear mine? Your vitamins won’t work if I don’t take mine? Your seatbelt doesn't work unless I wear mine?

So much wrong with this its unreal. Cancer risk? You drink alcohol at all? Many studies link even moderate consumption of alcohol with increased cancer risk, but I bet you don't worry about that do you? Almost all side effects occur within 2-3 weeks of vaccination. Vaccinated people start off with same viral load, but that viral load goes down rapidly, and the vaccinated person is infectious for a far shorter time than someone that isn't vaccinated. The immune system of a vaccinated person almost always eliminates the virus before it leaves the nasopharynx, which means a mild or asymptomatic infection. Lower risk of hospitalization? Are you serious? Every single person in the ICU where I work is unvaccinated, but you question whether they work? Every single doctor I work with got the vaccine, and recommends everyone do so, but people like you with no medical background know more? It's not an experimental vaccine either, fully FDA approved doesn't mean experimental. These vaccines have been in the works since SARS in 2003, good lord. The point of everyone getting vaccinated is that it will eliminate the risk of variants that can completely evade vaccine immunity, but you probably knew that lol.

 

[goodbyebobby]

You’re 100% right. There are whole different sides to this conversation that no one is having, and frankly it’s taboo to try. The overwhelming need for the government to tell everyone to get vaccinated seems to override everything we’ve ever known about the natural laws of virology and Immunology. I think they’re afraid if they release this data to the masses people would choose to take their chances without the vaccine.

not to mention, it’s a tough narrative to roll with at this point because certain news agencies have been so over the top negative about everything.

So much wrong with this its unreal. Cancer risk? You drink alcohol at all? Many studies link even moderate consumption of alcohol with increased cancer risk, but I bet you don't worry about that do you? Almost all side effects occur within 2-3 weeks of vaccination. Vaccinated people start off with same viral load, but that viral load goes down rapidly, and the vaccinated person is infectious for a far shorter time than someone that isn't vaccinated. The immune system of a vaccinated person almost always eliminates the virus before it leaves the nasopharynx, which means a mild or asymptomatic infection. Lower risk of hospitalization? Are you serious? Every single person in the ICU where I work is unvaccinated, but you question whether they work? Every single doctor I work with got the vaccine, and recommends everyone do so, but people like you with no medical background know more? It's not an experimental vaccine either, fully FDA approved doesn't mean experimental. These vaccines have been in the works since SARS in 2003, good lord. The point of everyone getting vaccinated is that it will eliminate the risk of variants that can completely evade vaccine immunity, but you probably knew that lol.

I don't question if they work, I DGAF if they do or not.
Quit telling everyone what they need to do.
Not a sniffle since the dreaded Covid began and I'll bet on my own health, thanks.
If someone wants to be vaxxed, wear a mask, and stay home they're welcome to do so.

 

[tomhawk80907]

Do some research on vaccines. Almost all side effects occur within 2-3 weeks of vaccination, and there haven't been any documented cases of adverse events to any vaccine longer than 2 months after vaccination. So your flip side is null and void.

Your 2-3 week timeframe very well could be right, I don’t know. What I do know is what you are describing is applicable of a vaccine that in normal times takes years to develop. In other words all the research is front end loaded. Again, didn’t happen here. So I disagree with your allegation that if nothing happens within the first two months then there is nothing to worry about.

I have no problem with the fact that you and every doc you know took the shot. I might consider it too except no one can tell me what the long term effects are. How does anyone give informed consent without being able to clear that up.