Big 12 expansion

[grosie#2]

Was listening to College Sports Full Ride on Sirius Radio. Rick Neuhiesel and his partner were saying Texas, who will drag TCU and Texas Tech with them, will vote expansion down. They concluded if that's done the Big 12 is done. Bowsby, Big 12 commissioner, is pushing for expansion saying it will give the league a 15% better chance to make the playoffs. The Big 12 needs 80% to pass expansion. With 3 teams voting against it, that pretty much kills expansion.

It's rumored that Texas thinks if the Big 12 goes down they plus ND will join the ACC taking their football TV packages with them. Rick N stated that the ACC only has 2 strong football teams in the current league and would do about anything to get Texas and ND to join. This would also help the ACC to get their own network. The Big 12 meetings are taking place in Arizona and will be interesting to see what comes out of it.

 

[hawkbleeder]

Rick has a partner? Didn't know he swung that way. Not that there's anything wrong wit dat.

 

[ichawk24]

If they don't expand, I think the status quo continues. What would cause the B12 to splinter? Seems that Oklahoma is the only school that could leave and case the whole thing to fall apart. B1G inviting OU seems like a stretch. SEC has expressed little interest in OU. The P12 expressed interest in OU/OkSU in the past, but Larry Scott is currently under fire and I doubt they'd expand to 14 with those two schools at this point.

If conference expansion happens, it is more likely to happen around 2023, as current GOR agreements are near expiring.

 

[grosie#2]

If they don't expand, I think the status quo continues. What would cause the B12 to splinter? Seems that Oklahoma is the only school that could leave and case the whole thing to fall apart. B1G inviting OU seems like a stretch. SEC has expressed little interest in OU. The P12 expressed interest in OU/OkSU in the past, but Larry Scott is currently under fire and I doubt they'd expand to 14 with those two schools at this point.

If conference expansion happens, it is more likely to happen around 2023, as current GOR agreements are near expiring.

According to Full Ride and their inside sources, OU's board is split on expansion although the AD wants it.. They believe either way the OU name will bring in offers from other leagues. In fact other leagues have said to have contacted them. This includes the Big 10 and Pac 12. I don't think OU would push for expansion if they didn't have a plan B to improve their standing elsewhere.

 

[NevadaHawk]

Colorado State wants to build a new football stadium even though there is some opposition to the plan. If the Rams some how get that new stadium built, they will get an offer to join the B12.

 

[hawkssox1]

They believe either way the OU name will bring in offers from other leagues. In fact other leagues have said to have contacted them. This includes the Big 10 and Pac 12.

I don't believe for a minute anyone from the BIG 10 would give up the $$$$ they have coming in for a league that probably will not exist in 10 years.

 

[ichawk24]

I believe the claim that other conferences have contacted OU. But there is a large gap between contact and an outright invitation to join a league.

Boren is pushing hard for expansion. OU BOR just came out this week pushing back, saying they're the ones that have the authority to make these decisions, not Boren.

Lots of pieces have to fall into place for things to happen.

 

[whatsup13579er]

I don't believe for a minute anyone from the BIG 10 would give up the $$$$ they have coming in for a league that probably will not exist in 10 years.

OU sees the writing on the wall and is looking to get out ASAP. The only problem is that the other conferences are pretty well set right now. IMO, the ACC would be wise to make a play for OU and one of the Texas schools.

Look for the B1G to seriously start considering adding a couple teams towards the end of this next media deal. I think they poach from the ACC to add a couple more large media markets to give them more leverage in the negotiations for their media rights. The new commissioner will be looking to make his mark on the league.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

Lol at Texas.

 

[balms]

Colorado State wants to build a new football stadium even though there is some opposition to the plan. If the Rams some how get that new stadium built, they will get an offer to join the B12.

I believe CSU is already moving ahead with the new stadium and will be ready by 2018.

 

[Lone Clone]

If they don't expand, I think the status quo continues. What would cause the B12 to splinter? Seems that Oklahoma is the only school that could leave and case the whole thing to fall apart. B1G inviting OU seems like a stretch. SEC has expressed little interest in OU. The P12 expressed interest in OU/OkSU in the past, but Larry Scott is currently under fire and I doubt they'd expand to 14 with those two schools at this point.

If conference expansion happens, it is more likely to happen around 2023, as current GOR agreements are near expiring.

There's a lot of talk, as is the case during slow sports news periods every year. You make a good point about GOR......which is a factor many of the people doing the speculating don't even know exists. There's also a lack of knowledge among many of these people (and many on this board) about how many dollars Big XII schools currently are getting.

As a fan, I wish they hadn't added West Virginia and TCU, and I am seriously unthrilled by the prospect of Cincinnati and UConn joining in the future.

 

[Quintana]

if they want to expand, i can think of one team the big12 can have back...

 

[ROCKY MOUNTAIN HAWK]

Colorado State wants to build a new football stadium even though there is some opposition to the plan. If the Rams some how get that new stadium built, they will get an offer to join the B12.

It's being built. Will be ready in 2017

 

[iahawkeyes17]

There's a lot of talk, as is the case during slow sports news periods every year. You make a good point about GOR......which is a factor many of the people doing the speculating don't even know exists. There's also a lack of knowledge among many of these people (and many on this board) about how many dollars Big XII schools currently are getting.

As a fan, I wish they hadn't added West Virginia and TCU, and I am seriously unthrilled by the prospect of Cincinnati and UConn joining in the future.

But if they don't bring TCU and WVU very strong possibility the Big 12 dissolves with schools like Texas, OU and OSU jumping to another larger conference instead of staying in a conference of only 8 teams. Then ISU would be left playing in the Mountain West or AAC against the likes of Cincy and UConn. Because let's be honest when it comes to other conferences poaching schools from the Big 12 ISU is at or near the bottom of that list.

Side note with Big 12 expansion guess Fedex CEO basically told Big 12 they'd become a big time sponsor for football and bball if they added hometown school Memphis.

 

[MepoDawg#]

Just go to 4 power conferences of 16 teams each and get it over with. Each conference would have 2 8-team divisions with the division winners making the playoffs.

 

[Lone Clone]

But if they don't bring TCU and WVU very strong possibility the Big 12 dissolves with schools like Texas, OU and OSU jumping to another larger conference instead of staying in a conference of only 8 teams. Then ISU would be left playing in the Mountain West or AAC against the likes of Cincy and UConn. Because let's be honest when it comes to other conferences poaching schools from the Big 12 ISU is at or near the bottom of that list.

Side note with Big 12 expansion guess Fedex CEO basically told Big 12 they'd become a big time sponsor for football and bball if they added hometown school Memphis.

I realize there is an obsession on this board with ISU going to the MAC or Mountain West, so I make allowances

I don't understand naming Cincy and UConn as teams ISU would have been stuck with, when those two teams are the most frequently mentioned as the new members of the Big XII. My point wasn't that the league should have remained at 8 schools.....although I could argue that position. My point was that TCU and West Virginia weren't the teams I thought would be the best fit. Especially West Virginia. I would have preferred Louisville & Memphis or one of those two and Cincinnati.

Overall, while I understand the reputation of the Big XII as "unstable," it is in a strong position in terms of revenues, media contracts, etc......considerably better than the Pac-12 right now.

It will be interesting to see if the mover and shakers pull a rabbit out of the hat in the next few months, and if so, what the bunny looks like. The only really loud voice for expansion is the president of OU, and he's been publicly slapped down by both the Big XII office and his own board of regents, so it isn't like there's some huge groundswell or that expansion is inevitable.

I'm hearing and reading everything from no change at all to a quasi-merger with another major conference.

 

[ROCKY MOUNTAIN HAWK]

I realize there is an obsession on this board with ISU going to the MAC or Mountain West, so I make allowances

I don't understand naming Cincy and UConn as teams ISU would have been stuck with, when those two teams are the most frequently mentioned as the new members of the Big XII. My point wasn't that the league should have remained at 8 schools.....although I could argue that position. My point was that TCU and West Virginia weren't the teams I thought would be the best fit. Especially West Virginia. I would have preferred Louisville & Memphis or one of those two and Cincinnati.

Overall, while I understand the reputation of the Big XII as "unstable," it is in a strong position in terms of revenues, media contracts, etc......considerably better than the Pac-12 right now.

It will be interesting to see if the mover and shakers pull a rabbit out of the hat in the next few months, and if so, what the bunny looks like. The only really loud voice for expansion is the president of OU, and he's been publicly slapped down by both the Big XII office and his own board of regents, so it isn't like there's some huge groundswell or that expansion is inevitable.

I'm hearing and reading everything from no change at all to a quasi-merger with another major conference.

I would prepare yourself for ISU being out of the 4 power conferences. It will make it easier when it happens.

 

[Lone Clone]

I would prepare yourself for ISU being out of the 4 power conferences. It will make it easier when it happens.

It's entirely possible. I have recognized this since back when Nebraska and Colorado departed. ISU is in a vulnerable position.

 

[hawkssox1]

Overall, while I understand the reputation of the Big XII as "unstable," it is in a strong position in terms of revenues, media contracts, etc......considerably better than the Pac-12 right now.

Not the case at all especially with the Big 12 having trouble getting their television network up.

 

[Lone Clone]

Not sure how the Big XII could be having trouble setting up its conference TV network since it hasn't tried to set up a conference TV network.

Conference members retain third-tier television rights. That's what enables Texas to have the Longhorn Network and enables ISU to have the Cyclone Channel & live stream events that aren't carried by the contractural media partners.

There are mixed feelings about whether the league should set up a conference network. In ISU's case it might -- might -- result in greater revenues, but it almost surely would also result in fewer ISU events available live to fans. Texas doesn't want to give up the Longhorn Network because it has a lucrative deal with ESPN, but ESPN is losing its shirt on the deal.

 

[iahawkeyes17]

I realize there is an obsession on this board with ISU going to the MAC or Mountain West, so I make allowances

I don't understand naming Cincy and UConn as teams ISU would have been stuck with, when those two teams are the most frequently mentioned as the new members of the Big XII. My point wasn't that the league should have remained at 8 schools.....although I could argue that position. My point was that TCU and West Virginia weren't the teams I thought would be the best fit. Especially West Virginia. I would have preferred Louisville & Memphis or one of those two and Cincinnati.

Overall, while I understand the reputation of the Big XII as "unstable," it is in a strong position in terms of revenues, media contracts, etc......considerably better than the Pac-12 right now.

It will be interesting to see if the mover and shakers pull a rabbit out of the hat in the next few months, and if so, what the bunny looks like. The only really loud voice for expansion is the president of OU, and he's been publicly slapped down by both the Big XII office and his own board of regents, so it isn't like there's some huge groundswell or that expansion is inevitable.

I'm hearing and reading everything from no change at all to a quasi-merger with another major conference.

With the $, TV contracts and everything else going on with college football no way an 8 league team would last. I guess one could but not as a power 5 conference. First off you only get 7 conference games then have to add that 5th non conference game plus no conference title game. Safe to say the old Big 8 model would not play well in today's age. Plus I have a hard time thinking that the big boys in OU and Texas would be happy with 8 team league. Again Big 12's biggest issue is one school, Texas, has a lot more power and leverage than other schools thanks to that dumpster fire network they call Longhorn Network they set up with ESPN.

 

[Lone Clone]

With the $, TV contracts and everything else going on with college football no way an 8 league team would last. I guess one could but not as a power 5 conference. First off you only get 7 conference games then have to add that 5th non conference game plus no conference title game. Safe to say the old Big 8 model would not play well in today's age. Plus I have a hard time thinking that the big boys in OU and Texas would be happy with 8 team league. Again Big 12's biggest issue is one school, Texas, has a lot more power and leverage than other schools thanks to that dumpster fire network they call Longhorn Network they set up with ESPN.

With whom are you arguing? I'm not advocating an 8-team league. I liked the old Big Eight better than anything that's happened since then, but that's nostalgia. I liked big, heavy cars with huge V8 engines, too.

And the Longhorn Network isn't what gives Texas clout; it's precisely the opposite. Texas clout is responsible for the Longhorn Network.

 

[hawkssox1]

Not sure how the Big XII could be having trouble setting up its conference TV network since it hasn't tried to set up a conference TV network.

They have been trying since 2012 to set up a network and the PAC 12 has one in place not sure what you do no understand.Bowlsby better get his s together or there wont be a conference to worry about.

 

[PHXIowaClub]

Adding West Virginia was the dumbest thing ever. Big 12 will eventually be destroyed and Iowa State and Kansas State will be left out of the Power Conferences. I just wish the B1G would get rid of Rutgers and add Missouri, Kansas, and Oklahoma (screw Notre Dame).

 

[Lone Clone]

That just isn't true, sox. People have been TALKING about a conference network forever, but there's been no attempt to create one, and the desire isn't universal, in part for the reason I gave earlier.

If Texas were to indicate it's willing to give up the LHN or have it folded into a conference network, some steps might well be taken in that direction.....although the latter idea isn't at all attractive to schools like ISU. The scenario for ISU -- and the Kansas schools, and Okie State, and all the Texas schools that aren't located in Austin -- is that the "Big XII Network" that resulted from a dewal with the LHN would give those schools less exposure, less power over rights, and not much more money, if any.

 

[Lone Clone]

Adding West Virginia was the dumbest thing ever. Big 12 will eventually be destroyed and Iowa State and Kansas State will be left out of the Power Conferences. I just wish the B1G would get rid of Rutgers and add Missouri, Kansas, and Oklahoma (screw Notre Dame).

That map really illustrates one of the problems. Losing Missouri and Nebraska was a kick in the stomach. The geography doesn't really matter much these days in terms of travel distance, but it's important in terms of fan interest and rivalries. Iowa State fans are supposed to be as interested in playing West Virginia and TCU as we were in playing Nebraska and Missouri? Really?

 

[David1979]

I just don't see them expanding as long as Texas is not on board and even OU seems split. I am so sick of hearing people talk about it to on sports radio. There is nothing left to say on the topic. It has all been said.

 

[hawkssox1]

I just don't see them expanding as long as Texas is not on board and even OU seems split. I am so sick of hearing people talk about it to on sports radio. There is nothing left to say on the topic. It has all been said.

Agree the horse has been dead for a long time.

 

[Lone Clone]

Agree the horse has been dead for a long time.

We definitely are on the same page here.

 

[whatsup13579er]

That map really illustrates one of the problems. Losing Missouri and Nebraska was a kick in the stomach. The geography doesn't really matter much these days in terms of travel distance, but it's important in terms of fan interest and rivalries. Iowa State fans are supposed to be as interested in playing West Virginia and TCU as we were in playing Nebraska and Missouri? Really?

No one in the B12 cares what Iowa State thinks. Just like no one in the B1G really cares what Iowa thinks.

 

[hawkssox1]

No one in the B12 cares what Iowa State thinks. Just like no one in the B1G really cares what Iowa thinks.

Wow this has been a defining moment.

 

[SoDakHawk]

Colorado State should be a no-brainer for the Big 12. Fits in the conference footprint, gets you back in the Colorado market which is ripe for the picking since Buffy sucks so bad, and CSU has shown the commitment by building a new football stadium. CSU might not be a big splash on Day One but they would grow into the conference and be just fine. There is some potential there just like Rutgers has some built in characteristics that could allow them to grow into a very solid BIG school.

After CSU you can flip a coin between Memphis and Cincinnati. Neither one of them trips my trigger to be honest. Cinci will always be overshadowed by OSU and Memphis has a ton of competition around them with all those SEC schools. Tough for them to carve out territory given their location. Either one of them helps bridge that gap to WVU. The Big 12 venturing into Florida makes even less sense than adding WVU to begin with.

Honestly the only reason to look East at all is because of WVU. If not for them the Big 12 could add CSU and BYU and be done with it.

ETA: One thing the Big 12 has going for it is they don't have any hang-ups about academics. Doesn't really matter where the school ranks. Keeps that JUCO in Boise, Idaho in the conversation.

 

[ichawk24]

No ones cares about college football in Colorado, and CSU is second banana. They averaged a little under 25k per game last year.

Cincy averaged 37k, Memphis 44k.

None of them are all that attractive. I think the status quo reigns.

 

[SoDakHawk]

The Big 12 is going to need to take the best options available, I never said any of them are all that attractive. They have to look at it from the perspective of which program could take that bump the Big 12 affiliation and grow themselves into something. Standing pat right now will mean certain death in the future for the Big 12. OU isn't going to hang around in this stagnant conference. Once they go it is over.

As for Colorado, college football used to be big there when CU was rolling. CU sucks right now and I don't see that changing for them in the Pac 12. Now is a good time for CSU to strike. Don't look at CSU now, look at what they could be.

 

[hawkssox1]

The Big 12 is going to need to take the best options available, I never said any of them are all that attractive. They have to look at it from the perspective of which program could take that bump the Big 12 affiliation and grow themselves into something. Standing pat right now will mean certain death in the future for the Big 12. OU isn't going to hang around in this stagnant conference. Once they go it is over.

Memphis moved to the top of the class with a pledge of 500 million over the next 10 years(FedEx CEO Fred Smith)his kid was a one time quarterback at Memphis and if my memory serves me correctly was in and out of trouble.

 

[SoDakHawk]

Sounds good. Big 12 adds CSU and Memphis, one to the west and one to the east, calls it good and we can move on from this story.

 

[grosie#2]

Full Ride has been following the Big 12 expansion topic for about 2-3 weeks. They say teams lobbying to get into the Big 12 are BYU, Memphis, Cincinnati, and Houston. Whether these teams provide the TV market to help the Big 12 is questionable.

The big thing for the Big 12, the ACC and even the PAC 12 is money, they are all falling behind the Big 10 and the SEC. I believe both these leagues r giving each of their schools around 20 million a yr. after the new TV contracts. The other leagues r around 8 million, I think. Texas I believe gets around 15 million with their TV network. In order for the Big 12 and ACC to keep up they both need their own networks. Both need to expand with teams that bring in a TV audience. That's why I think the ACC would go after Texas and bring ND into their football family. I have my doubts about the Big 12. Can they add any big name schools that will really help their league. If not Texas and OU r gone.

 

[Lone Clone]

No ones cares about college football in Colorado, and CSU is second banana. They averaged a little under 25k per game last year.

Cincy averaged 37k, Memphis 44k.

None of them are all that attractive. I think the status quo reigns.

No one cares about college sports in Colorado, period. They didn't care about CU, and they care far less about CSU. In fact, if the Big XII were to go that route, I'd rather have Air Force. But even in the days of the old Big Eight, Colorado was the odd man out that nobody could quite understand how they got in.

But I don't know what TCU is doing in the league now, and while I think WVA fits in all other respects, the geography is appalling.

 

[Lone Clone]

Full Ride has been following the Big 12 expansion topic for about 2-3 weeks. They say teams lobbying to get into the Big 12 are BYU, Memphis, Cincinnati, and Houston. Whether these teams provide the TV market to help the Big 12 is questionable.

The big thing for the Big 12, the ACC and even the PAC 12 is money, they are all falling behind the Big 10 and the SEC. I believe both these leagues r giving each of their schools around 20 million a yr. after the new TV contracts. The other leagues r around 8 million, I think. Texas I believe gets around 15 million with their TV network. In order for the Big 12 and ACC to keep up they both need their own networks. Both need to expand with teams that bring in a TV audience. That's why I think the ACC would go after Texas and bring ND into their football family. I have my doubts about the Big 12. Can they add any big name schools that will really help their league. If not Texas and OU r gone.

I'm pretty sure Big XII schools get around $23-$25 million a year from the conference now, which doesn't count Tier Three rights. Big XII schools retain those, unlike other conferences. Those come to about $70 million for the 10 teams as a whole, but it isn't evenly distributed. As you point out, the teasips get around $15 million; I think ISU gets between $3-$5 million.

Overall, the payout is to the BiG and SEC now, but those leagues will, I think, be renegotiating their TV contracts much sooner than will the Big XII. I think some people didn't catch what Bowlsby said the other day; he didn't talk about a current gap in revenues between the Big XII, BiG and SEC as being a matter of concern; he said if the Big XII does nothing, in 20 years there will be a significant gap.

ADDENDUM: I actually looked it up instead of going by memory, prejudice and intuition
The last available data shows the SEC gave each school about $31 million, the BiG about $30 million and the Big XII $23 million. However, that doesn't count the Big XII Tier Three rights. When you compare apples to apples, that puts the Big XII at about $30 million per school.

 

[grosie#2]

I'm pretty sure Big XII schools get around $23-$25 million a year from the conference now, which doesn't count Tier Three rights. Big XII schools retain those, unlike other conferences. Those come to about $70 million for the 10 teams as a whole, but it isn't evenly distributed. As you point out, the teasips get around $15 million; I think ISU gets between $3-$5 million.

Overall, the payout is to the BiG and SEC now, but those leagues will, I think, be renegotiating their TV contracts much sooner than will the Big XII. I think some people didn't catch what Bowlsby said the other day; he didn't talk about a current gap in revenues between the Big XII, BiG and SEC as being a matter of concern; he said if the Big XII does nothing, in 20 years there will be a significant gap.

ADDENDUM: I actually looked it up instead of going by memory, prejudice and intuition
The last available data shows the SEC gave each school about $31 million, the BiG about $30 million and the Big XII $23 million. However, that doesn't count the Big XII Tier Three rights. When you compare apples to apples, that puts the Big XII at about $30 million per school.

I'm not totally up on the financials of every conference other than the Big 10 and SEC r much better off than the rest and getting richer. OU is pushing to get something done with the Big 12 as far as a network and dealing with Texas. They would also like to improve the Big 12's chances of getting into the playoffs. Their President Boron would like expansion but will listen to other conferences if expansion is voted down. He's has the political clout within the state of Oklahoma to probably get it done without involving OSU. Being a once 2 term Governor and Senator of that state plus his son is now the Senator. OU is not going to wait 20 yrs. before something is done.