Big 12 expansion
- Thread starter grosie#2
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I read a lot about this topic because it fascinates me. The biggest misunderstanding that outsiders have when talking about BIG expansion is what this conference desires. They look at it from a football only perspective and don't consider other factors that are important to the BIG.
Another misconception is that everybody wants Texas. I don't think so. I think the BIG and the SEC are fine without Texas and, in the case of the BIG, don't even want Texas. Texas doesn't play nice, they are a conference killer and think they have to have all the power in the conference. That won't fly in the BIG, plus there is the distance factor, the culture factor, and there are no bordering BIG states. Really, after the conference shuffling is done, maybe it is Texas that is standing alone as an independent if they don't learn they need to share and be equal partners in a venture. I'm sure they will always have a spot in the ACC or Pac 12, but I don't think they could just call up the BIG or SEC and say they want it and it would be an automatic.
Oklahoma is the center of all the current conference shuffling talk. If OU and UT can find a way to play nice together than the Big 12 will stabilize and could possibly lure somebody to join the conference, most likely from the ACC as I don't see any BIG or SEC school foolish enough to leave the comforts of their current conference. If OU decides they can't keep up financially with the top blue bloods in the country that reside in the BIG/SEC (OSU, Michigan, Bama, LSU, etc), the next level programs in those conferences (Iowa, MSU, Georgia, Tennessee), or even the bottom of those conferences (Purdue, Indiana, Vandy) then they are going to seek greener pastures and those pastures will have to be in the BIG or SEC, because why trade one disadvantaged position in the Big 12 for another disadvantaged position in the Pac 12 or ACC? If you move you go where the money is.
Another misconception is that everybody wants Texas. I don't think so. I think the BIG and the SEC are fine without Texas and, in the case of the BIG, don't even want Texas. Texas doesn't play nice, they are a conference killer and think they have to have all the power in the conference. That won't fly in the BIG, plus there is the distance factor, the culture factor, and there are no bordering BIG states. Really, after the conference shuffling is done, maybe it is Texas that is standing alone as an independent if they don't learn they need to share and be equal partners in a venture. I'm sure they will always have a spot in the ACC or Pac 12, but I don't think they could just call up the BIG or SEC and say they want it and it would be an automatic.
Oklahoma is the center of all the current conference shuffling talk. If OU and UT can find a way to play nice together than the Big 12 will stabilize and could possibly lure somebody to join the conference, most likely from the ACC as I don't see any BIG or SEC school foolish enough to leave the comforts of their current conference. If OU decides they can't keep up financially with the top blue bloods in the country that reside in the BIG/SEC (OSU, Michigan, Bama, LSU, etc), the next level programs in those conferences (Iowa, MSU, Georgia, Tennessee), or even the bottom of those conferences (Purdue, Indiana, Vandy) then they are going to seek greener pastures and those pastures will have to be in the BIG or SEC, because why trade one disadvantaged position in the Big 12 for another disadvantaged position in the Pac 12 or ACC? If you move you go where the money is.
Not to muddy the waters but, how is the income going to be divided? Assume some of the current P5 schools won't make the grade, who makes the decision of who moves up and who moves down? It will be difficult for the current powers to find a way to agree on any kind of split, competition and dollar value will have a whole new meaning. jmo.
This is the trick here. For the Big 12 to make expansion make sense they need to snag some big fish like FSU and Clemson. Or reclaim something they have lost like Nebraska and MIzzou. Or here is a wild card what if they went after Arizona and ASU?
The thing is I don't think they can pull of any of these schools. But if it's not a schools along these lines it doesn't make sense to expand. And if the Big 12 can't expand with good options how long is OU staying? That is the ticking time bomb that will go off at some point and when it does what happens to ISU?
I don't disagree with most of that. The idea of "we have to expand because...because....because....well, just because!" has never been very persuasive to me. I thought adding TCU and WVU was kind of a move of desperation. The only reason to expand, IMHO, is money. That's why I am not on the Colorado State bandwagon.This is the trick here. For the Big 12 to make expansion make sense they need to snag some big fish like FSU and Clemson. Or reclaim something they have lost like Nebraska and MIzzou. Or here is a wild card what if they went after Arizona and ASU?
The thing is I don't think they can pull of any of these schools. But if it's not a schools along these lines it doesn't make sense to expand. And if the Big 12 can't expand with good options how long is OU staying? That is the ticking time bomb that will go off at some point and when it does what happens to ISU?
Adding the two Arizona schools would make sense on a lot of levels; it might even make sense to the Arizona schools.
As for OU, the thing is that I keep seeing comments like yours about OU leaving, but I am not seeing reasonable predictions about where OU would go. The BiG isn't an option. The ACC and Pac-Whatever would be a step down. That pretty much leaves the SEC, which is problematic.
No question you are correct about ISU if the league were to disintegrate. And the same would be true for about half the P5 schools -- including Iowa -- if they were suddenly on the outside looking in. I'm not saying Iowa wouldn't be in a stronger position than ISU -- it would be -- but there's one hell of a difference between having the attributes necessary to remain in a league and having the attributes that would make a new league come courting. The gorilla in the room is TV; it all comes down to dollars, and dollars all come down to TV.
I think we're seeing this weaken the whole structure of college athletics. Look at the BiG: Yes, it's making more money than God, but is it really a conference anymore? I don't think so. The landscape is nothing at all like it was for generations with the Big Ten, Big Eight, etc. Rutgers and Maryland? Give me a break. Not that they aren't good schools; just that they don't fit with Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, etc.
I agree with everything you wrote here but my reading of the tea leaves makes me think OU wants out or wants change. Just speculation on my part but this whole round of expansion talk really is all emanating from OU talking about wanting a confs championship and expansion. I think OU is probably working behind the scenes to try and find a new home. I think their athletic dept is very attractive to a lot of confs.
I agree Iowa is just along for the ride on all of this. The Hawkeyes don't have the name brand or the population base to be dictating what should be done. Iowa is very lucky that when conferences really started being formed they hitched their wagon to a strong horse (Michigan and OSU). I also agree the shredding of tradition is a net loss for the sport in general. It is criminal in my opinion that Mizzou vs KU, Texas vs A & M, Nebraska vs OU are not taking place. I do take a bit of comfort in the current structure of the B1G has placed Iowa with the schools we need to be playing each year. That being Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Illinois. And has created a fun new rival for us in Nebraska. The only negative is the perception is the B1G west is a very weak division.
I wouldn't say the BIG isn't an option for OU. If OU leaves there are only two viable places for them to go where they can get the money they want, the SEC and the BIG. Boren has already made it known that the SEC is not the desired option, that leaves the BIG. Boren wants to raise OU's academic profile and the BIG fits that goal.
Here's a couple of things to think about. I've heard many Big 12, and other, fans talk about how the BIG has chained their future to cable TV and markets, but that is a failing strategy because of cord cutting. The next things out of their mouth when talking about expansion is television sets and markets. So which is it? The answer is it is a little bit of both. In the age of DVR's live sports programming becomes more valuable. In the age of cord cutting other delivery platforms become valuable as well, hence BTN2Go. What conferences are really going to need is content and valuable sports properties, properties that people across the country will want to watch.
Enter OU football and Kansas basketball. Those are two sports properties with national followings that people will watch. There is also the added benefit that both additions would be contiguous to the BIG footprint. Kansas is an AAU school which fills the academic requirement. OU is a state school that academically is not that far off Nebraska. The addition of OU a;llows the BIG to reach south into the Texas market where OU has a big following. Both additions would renew rivalries with Nebraska and OU's addition would bolster the West's perceived weakness. As an Iowa fan I think it will suck to lose the Black Friday game to OU but that would probably happen.
The more silence you hear about this type of move, OU and KU to the BIG, the more that is probably going on behind the scenes to make it happen. This is a move that would need to come out of left field so the opponents of it cannot organize and come up with an alternate plan (meaning if Okie State people want to organize opposition they won't have time. If OU gets a BIG invite the politicians will have to go along with it because not taking it would be detrimental to OU.).
The question becomes does the BIG want a KU/OU combo? It's entirely possible that the BIG is far more interested in a UVA/UNC combo, but that ACC nut is going to be tougher to crack. The Big 12 is ripe for the picking and this might be a case where an opportunity presents itself.
Here's a couple of things to think about. I've heard many Big 12, and other, fans talk about how the BIG has chained their future to cable TV and markets, but that is a failing strategy because of cord cutting. The next things out of their mouth when talking about expansion is television sets and markets. So which is it? The answer is it is a little bit of both. In the age of DVR's live sports programming becomes more valuable. In the age of cord cutting other delivery platforms become valuable as well, hence BTN2Go. What conferences are really going to need is content and valuable sports properties, properties that people across the country will want to watch.
Enter OU football and Kansas basketball. Those are two sports properties with national followings that people will watch. There is also the added benefit that both additions would be contiguous to the BIG footprint. Kansas is an AAU school which fills the academic requirement. OU is a state school that academically is not that far off Nebraska. The addition of OU a;llows the BIG to reach south into the Texas market where OU has a big following. Both additions would renew rivalries with Nebraska and OU's addition would bolster the West's perceived weakness. As an Iowa fan I think it will suck to lose the Black Friday game to OU but that would probably happen.
The more silence you hear about this type of move, OU and KU to the BIG, the more that is probably going on behind the scenes to make it happen. This is a move that would need to come out of left field so the opponents of it cannot organize and come up with an alternate plan (meaning if Okie State people want to organize opposition they won't have time. If OU gets a BIG invite the politicians will have to go along with it because not taking it would be detrimental to OU.).
The question becomes does the BIG want a KU/OU combo? It's entirely possible that the BIG is far more interested in a UVA/UNC combo, but that ACC nut is going to be tougher to crack. The Big 12 is ripe for the picking and this might be a case where an opportunity presents itself.
It's a little ironic to see a BiG proponent touting OU, in light of the fact that for decades the Big Ten made a huge deal of the fact that it was the only league with all members in the AAU. If it were up to Delaney, no doubt OU would be getting an invitation in tomorrow's mail. And no doubt Boren wants a change. The question is whether he speaks for a significant power structure. The reaction of his board of Regents would indicate he does not.
KU and OU to the BiG is attractive for the reasons you cite. However, you can't dismiss Okie State and Kansas State that easily, for political reasons. After all, there is one reason, and one reason only, that Baylor is in the Big XII: The Texas Legislature.
I've said before that I wish Mizzou and Nebraska hadn't bailed.....and from what I hear, a goodly number of Mizzou and Nebraska fans feel the same way. Missouri's move definitely didn't sit well with a lot of Tiger boosters.
I think the Big XII is going to do something in the next couple of months, and I think whatever it does will be fairly surprising.
I wasn't being a proponent for OU to the BIG, I was simply debating the point that OU to the BIG is a non-starter because it is very plausible for many reasons.
Every single Nebraska fan I know, and I know a ton of them, love being in the BIG and are happy to be out of the Big 12. Mizzou fans, don't know, don't care.
I will dismiss Okie St and KSU because once the invite to the BIG comes out of nowhere it would take a heavy political toll to keep it from happening. Besides, I've heard that relations between OU and OSU have soured in recent years and the big money in Oklahoma could GAF what happens to Okie State now. If the BIG invite comes it will be accepted.
I understand why you take the stance you do, you are a Cyclone fan and OU leaving would be the death knell for the Big 12. If that happens ISU is out in the wilderness. So I get that you are emotionally invested in this, and that emotional investment is clouding your judgment and you're not seeing the entire picture clearly. I'm an Iowa fan, I've got no emotional investment. Doesn't matter to me what happens to ISU athletics. Frankly, I don't really want OU in the conference because it makes the west that much harder, it puts our budding rivalry with Neb on the back burner as they get the Sooners and Jayhawks back, and, once the conference realigns, Iowa ends up in what is essentially the old Big 8, which would really suck. Do Iowa fans really want to be in some pod with OU, KU, and Neb? Hell no.
Every single Nebraska fan I know, and I know a ton of them, love being in the BIG and are happy to be out of the Big 12. Mizzou fans, don't know, don't care.
I will dismiss Okie St and KSU because once the invite to the BIG comes out of nowhere it would take a heavy political toll to keep it from happening. Besides, I've heard that relations between OU and OSU have soured in recent years and the big money in Oklahoma could GAF what happens to Okie State now. If the BIG invite comes it will be accepted.
I understand why you take the stance you do, you are a Cyclone fan and OU leaving would be the death knell for the Big 12. If that happens ISU is out in the wilderness. So I get that you are emotionally invested in this, and that emotional investment is clouding your judgment and you're not seeing the entire picture clearly. I'm an Iowa fan, I've got no emotional investment. Doesn't matter to me what happens to ISU athletics. Frankly, I don't really want OU in the conference because it makes the west that much harder, it puts our budding rivalry with Neb on the back burner as they get the Sooners and Jayhawks back, and, once the conference realigns, Iowa ends up in what is essentially the old Big 8, which would really suck. Do Iowa fans really want to be in some pod with OU, KU, and Neb? Hell no.
I think UVA would be #1 on the wish list for the B1G. Followed closely by a UNC or Ga Tech. Any school combined with UVA would be an upgrade over a KU/OU combo. I think KU/OU would jump to the B1G before Delany was done giving his pitch.
[QUOTE=".....
I agree Iowa is just along for the ride on all of this. The Hawkeyes don't have the name brand or the population base to be dictating what should be done. Iowa is very lucky that when conferences really started being formed they hitched their wagon to a strong horse (Michigan and OSU). .[/QUOTE]
Iowa was a founding member 1899. Mich w/drew in 1908. O$U joined in 1912. Mich rejoined 1917
I agree Iowa is just along for the ride on all of this. The Hawkeyes don't have the name brand or the population base to be dictating what should be done. Iowa is very lucky that when conferences really started being formed they hitched their wagon to a strong horse (Michigan and OSU). .[/QUOTE]
Iowa was a founding member 1899. Mich w/drew in 1908. O$U joined in 1912. Mich rejoined 1917
Dude, I wasn't giving a literal take on how and why Iowa joined the B1G. All I was trying to say is Iowa is lucky to be in a conference with Michigan and OSU because they bring stability. SMH.[/QUOTE]
Not really. Despite having been (prior to the addition of Nebraska) the institution from the least populated state in the conference, Iowa has more than managed to hold its own. The 'stability' that exists comes from the priorities and regulations established long ago more so than any one or two teams/programs. Unlike the big xii, Michigan and/or OSU (as well as any other member) had no abilities to act unilaterally and to the detriment of the whole.
Not seeing much attraction to KU. I like the AAU stuff, but Football makes the bank. The BIG already has several stadiums that are embarrassingly half full on Saturdays. Purdue, Illinois, Indiana, NW, Rutgers. Does KU football ever get on TV anymore? KU would need to make a serious football commitment up front to be considered a true asset, unless their basketball draw is much bigger than I'm appreciating, as well as the KC TV market . And Okla, AAU or no AAU, is a hike, even for Iowa and Ne. I'd bet Delany is not looking to the SW.
The UNMC is a stand-alone institution, it is not part of UNL. UNMC is basically a peer of UNL, they are members of the University of Nebraska System. Do you think UNL should get to include everything at UN-Kearney? UNO?
This would be like ISU complaining that they don't get to include UI's hospital.
I agree with everything you say here except that it's guiding my thinking on this specific matter. My concern about ISU's future has nothing to do with it. I'm not the one who says the Big Ten only accepts institutions that are members of the AAU; that's a mantra I've heard for 40 years from Big Ten advocates. If not for that, I'd have no doubts whatever about OU eventually getting an invitation.
I feel bad for Iowa State and their amazing fans.
Not.
The day the Big 12 implodes and Iowa State has no where to go is when I do a happy dance and might just go troll CyCLOWN Fanatic for fun.
Of course, I do not have to even scroll down in this thread to know that Lonely Clown, ISUBruce, CyCity and other CLOWN fans are saying there is no way the Big 12 implodes.....
Lonely Clown, you lied if your very first sentence. That is why your credibility is ZERO on this board.
From CBSsports.com:
The B1G paid its 11 longstanding members about $32.4 million each. That's on par with the SEC's payout of $32.7 million and considerably more than the Pac-12 ($25.1 million) and Big 12 ($23.3 million).
http://www.cbssports.com/college-fo...ent-in-2014-15-team-payments-on-par-with-sec/
Having lied and being misinformed are two different things. None the less, give the Clone fan some slack. For Clone fans only know what Texas wants them to know. Like really knowing how long 6" is.
So, Lonely CLOWN is ignorant and a liar?
How can you guys take Lonely Clown seriously? Time after time he has shown that he lies, makes stuff up, is ignorant when not making stuff up, and has zero credibility, yet posters on here interact with him. Makes no sense.
And another thing that makes no sense? A CLOWN fan posting non stop on a Hawkeye site, with little facts, a lot of lies, a lot of ignorance and a lot of B.S.
And.... Franisdaman has a Clown fetish. Let it go dude. For your own health.
I'd rather have ISU in the conference than Rutgers.
P.S. Have lived in Fort Collins for 6 years now. Just as good of college atmosphere that Boulder is. The Plus side with the State of Colorado in general is that it is a melting pot for the Midwest. KU, KSU, ISU, OK, OSU, and Texas fans are already here.
Like others have mentioned, Colorado grew by 101,000 people in 2015. That's the size of small city moving every year. Colorado will be a huge market in the future and I think CSU realizes they have an opportunity here with CU not giving two shits about athletics.
P.S. Have lived in Fort Collins for 6 years now. Just as good of college atmosphere that Boulder is. The Plus side with the State of Colorado in general is that it is a melting pot for the Midwest. KU, KSU, ISU, OK, OSU, and Texas fans are already here.
Like others have mentioned, Colorado grew by 101,000 people in 2015. That's the size of small city moving every year. Colorado will be a huge market in the future and I think CSU realizes they have an opportunity here with CU not giving two shits about athletics.
The problem is people who cannot read, and/or do not understand that apples are not oranges.
Anyone who read my posts about the future of the Big XII or the current revenue streams would understand the situation. And would know my posts were correct.
This is especially amusing because I see posters going on and on about Texas and the LHN, and in the process revealing they have no idea what the issues are.
Again my uninformed opinion but it seems to me the BIG 12 is gonna die. If it does I see no possibility of ISU being able to complete without being in a major conference. ISU into the BIG makes absolutely no sense I it would hurt Iowa for them to be in the conference. I think the day is coming that Iowa State will be forced to join a weak conference or even worse follow the path that Idaho has taken...FBS. Call me crazy but it is a distinct possibility. ISU is in deep trouble if the BIG 12 collapses...the financial impact will be devastating.
And you don't know what the issues are either. You source of information is no different than anyone else on this message board. Just because you are a fan of a school in the same conference doesn't give you insider information on the workings of the LHN issue.
EXACTLY! My sources are the same as everybody else on the board. The difference is that I've consulted those sources instead of simply parroting misinformation.
In a nutshell, the revenue issue is very simple. The members of the SEC and BiG have assigned all their television rights to their conferences. The conferences then make deals with various providers (ESPN, BTN, Fox, etc.) and distribute the income from those deals to the members.
The members of the Big XII have retained some of their television rights, referred to as third tier. The members make their own deals. The revenue from those deals provided members an aggregate of roughly $75 million, or an average of $7.5 million per school, in the most recent year.
In order to accurately compare revenues, it is necessary to include those with the payout from the conference for the rights that have been assigned to it. When you do that, the average for the Big XII members comes out to about $32 million.
This is the real story IMO. The Big Ten was responsible for removing one of their own. WI and MI should have there CIC privileges cut until they can demonstrate a little loyalty.
Lonely CLOWN, you are so full of crap. When we do read your god awful posts, we catch you in a lie. And when you get caught, you either ignore it or you say we are not smart enough to understand you.
Well, we do understand you.
Lonely Clown, you flat out lied in your post above when you said, and I quote, As I said, right now the Big XII, SEC and BiG are pretty much the same in terms of payouts to members.
That is why your credibility is ZERO on this board.
Why do you lie, mislead, and make stuff up? And why are you here?
The TRUTH, from CBSsports.com:
The B1G paid its 11 longstanding members about $32.4 million each. That's on par with the SEC's payout of $32.7 million and considerably more than the Pac-12 ($25.1 million) and Big 12 ($23.3 million).
http://www.cbssports.com/college-fo...ent-in-2014-15-team-payments-on-par-with-sec/
Link to where you came up with your numbers? You really think Iowa State's TV revenue, and i quote you, "comes out to about $32 million?" You may THINK that, you may type that, but you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
I provided the link to the source of my numbers, which was from CBSsports; I don't make crap up as I go, like you do.
And that's why your credibility is zero.
I found this story from a year ago, which proves LC wrong, once again. LC can't take all the revenues from 3rd tier and divide by 10 and hope to come up with his $9million number that would equal the B1G per school pay out.
Pollard has declined to announce how much Cyclones.tv actually rakes in, but it continues to grow especially after its agreement with local cable giant, Mediacom.
Some of the bigger networks are making millions. Kansas’ Jayhawk Network is worth $6 million, Kansas state’s KStateHD.TV is worth $3 million, and the infamous Longhorn Network, which everyone loves to pile on, is worth about $15 million without being on a major provider like DirecTV.
And, unlike Lonely Clown, I can provide a source:
http://clonesconfidential.com/2014/05/30/iowa-state-receives-conference-revenue-every-sec-school/
Pollard has declined to announce how much Cyclones.tv actually rakes in, but it continues to grow especially after its agreement with local cable giant, Mediacom.
Some of the bigger networks are making millions. Kansas’ Jayhawk Network is worth $6 million, Kansas state’s KStateHD.TV is worth $3 million, and the infamous Longhorn Network, which everyone loves to pile on, is worth about $15 million without being on a major provider like DirecTV.
And, unlike Lonely Clown, I can provide a source:
http://clonesconfidential.com/2014/05/30/iowa-state-receives-conference-revenue-every-sec-school/
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