Ah yes, the Union that has no power what so ever. Good point.We already have that, they travel under the banner of the teachers union.
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Ah yes, the Union that has no power what so ever. Good point.We already have that, they travel under the banner of the teachers union.
The "exact same principle" would be Muslim students praying after the game on the field...Good. Now imagine if Muslim students wanted to pray in the middle of the cafeteria in full view of others. Just cynically, I can’t see Christian parents being okay with that, even tho it’s the exact same principle.
it may be just me. But I’ve always felt prayer was something you did in private or at church. Praying in public always comes across as showing off to me, which imo isn’t the point.
I'm not bothered if bad precedents go.
Why do you think they would react like you would?“Sure, you were the starting RB Johnny - but you didn’t come pray with me in the middle of the field during my big spectacle god circle jerk. Ride the pine son ‘til you get in line.”
The "exact same principle" would be Muslim students praying after the game on the field...
Praying in the cafeteria during lunch isn't the same thing.
He can now. People, specifically Christians, don't have to take part. That's the freedom of it all. And he can take crap from others just like Christians do.Can’t wait for the first Muslim coach to offer a prayer on a public school’s athletic field, then.
I’m sure his First Amendment rights will be viewed and protected just the same by this court.
Excellent post. I especially agree with number 3. Coaches are notorious for withholding playing time for personal reasons.As I've stated elsehwere, I've always felt this case had something of a contrived 'astroturf' feel to it, and for that reason wish that cert hadn't been granted.
But with that said...
1. This is actually a hard case, as are all of the cases where you actually have a tension between free exercise and establishment clause issues.
2. Here, perhaps the key point in Gorsuch's opinion is that in cases like that where both are in play, a government entity's Establishment Clause "fears" don't generally trump an individual's Free Exercise rights. Thus, discipline like this that has a prophylactic feel to it is likely to come under scrutiny. That's actually not a bad legal principle.
3. Instead, you have to establish some actual establishment clause risk. I have some sympathy for the district's concern that the coach has implied authority here which could result in coercion, particularly having known some football coaches just like this guy. But, the record facts of the matter are the guy seemed to do everything possible to disavow any compulsive intent (which is one of the reasons this feels like an astroturf claim), and at some point you have to acknowledge that.
4. For those of you who are now predicting the doom and gloom of mandatory prayer, etc., well...sigh. While that sort of fear-based marketing is certainly to be expected, it has nothing to do with this case, since it would clearly be an establishment issue and not entail free exercise issues.
Should a teacher be able to wear religious garb in a school while "representing the state"? I think so....I have no problem with a Muslim woman wearing the Hijab.*sigh* his players are free to go to midfield and pray. He, however, is an authority figure under contract to the state. He represents the state. Not the same thing as a prayer room that is totally voluntary.
I've never felt "coerced" when I've seen someone pray.Why do you think you would? Do you really think a HS kid in a christian environment is going to testify against his coach? He's still got to live there, go to school there, maybe play football there. As I said, it's coercive on its face. You don't need "evidence" to understand that.
How would that be coercive? Nobody said the coach can't wear a cross around his neck. Apples and hammers.Should a teacher be able to wear religious garb in a school while "representing the state"? I think so....I have no problem with a Muslim woman wearing the Hijab.
I've been more or less coerced to pray by a public school football coach. Would you, as a stranger in town going to the only public school available (mind you as a teenager or younger), have dared shared your actual thoughts about the practice? Or just gone along with the coercion since it's stupid sky fairy stuff anyway? I did the latter, I would rather not have had to choose.I've never felt "coerced" when I've seen someone pray.
LOL...this isn't "someone". This is your HS football coach. Making a deliberate public spectacle of marching out to midfield and kneeling in prayer while you are still under his supervision. And you're a 16-year-old kid who wants to play.I've never felt "coerced" when I've seen someone pray.
We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess.LOL...this isn't "someone". This is your HS football coach. Making a deliberate public spectacle of marching out to midfield and kneeling in prayer. And you're a 16-year-old kid who wants to play.
Maybe you're correct and maybe some will try and coerce but that doesn't mean this or anyone else should lose their constitutional right simply because some might abuse it.
Why do you think they would react like you would?
I’m not christian trash….so, I give you no points for your attempt.
Insulting someone’s faith doesn’t help your argument.
Man, it definitely seems awkward to me and I can imagine some kids feel compelled to participate even if they would prefer not to.I've seen no evidence of that....
People refusing to acknowledge reality are generally not in my agreement zone. So yeah.We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess.
okPeople refusing to acknowledge reality are generally not in my agreement zone. So yeah.
I wouldn't consider a plainly stated as optional, for people interested, prayer group after a game to be coercive enough.I've been more or less coerced to pray by someone in a position of power. Would you, as a stranger in town going to the only public school available (mind you as a teenager or younger), have dared shared your actual thoughts about the practice? Or just gone along with the coercion since it's stupid sky fairy stuff anyway? I did the latter, I would rather not have had to choose.
Here's reality for those of you who struggle with the concept:
Man, it definitely seems awkward to me and I can imagine some kids feel compelled to participate even if they would prefer not to.
You must hate watching sports with all the home runs and touch downs being scored. All those signing the cross to thank God.And absolutely a public display for all the wrong reasons.
You're a kid on a HS football team and you want to play. How coercive is it for your coach to announce that he's going to create a public spectacle in support of his faith but you're more than welcome to sit it out?I wouldn't consider a plainly stated as optional, for people interested, prayer group after a game to be coercive enough.
Projection.Libs are easily offended and butthurt these days. Such aggrieved victims. Just look at this thread.
How about before you take the field as a team? That happened when I was in high school and I doubt we were unique in that and I would bet there will be a lot more of it going forward as football coaches are the virtue signaliest of all virtue signalers. It'll be fine just as long as everyone who doesn't want to participate tells coach man to man "hey your stupid Jesus nonsense isn't for me so this is optional unless you want to get the school district sued."I wouldn't consider a plainly stated as optional, for people interested, prayer group after a game to be coercive enough.
You're walking a fine line, however, in general, I think we should have a bit of latitude on stuff like this. To me religion in this scenario wouldn't be any different than some optional LGBTQ gathering as led by a school official.
I think religion is just tossed into the same pool as all that sort of stuff. Religion gets no special privileges, but on the flip side, it doesn't face any unique rejection criteria. I'd probably toss it under the umbrella of a cultural grouping.
Of course that opens the doors for satanic worship after the game as well. Or maybe the coach is EMO and does some weird EMO shit after the game.
But I tend to think being inclusive is the way to go on this stuff.
This wasn't about the players. Ever. Try to keep up.You must hate watching sports with all the home runs and touch downs being scored. All those signing the cross to thank God.
It happens with teams all over the country. Teams have prayers before games and not everyone in those huddles believe in the Christian God, but feel it’s safer to just bow their heads and go along with it. That’s fact. Common sense as well.I've seen no evidence of that....
You continually bring up powerless teachers unions. You refuse to learn anything.We already have that, they travel under the banner of the teachers union.
You're a kid on a HS football team and you want to play. How coercive is it for your coach to announce that he's going to create a public spectacle in support of his faith but you're more than welcome to sit it out?
Projection.And your post makes you a bigot.
Climate advocacy - despite the unhinged claims of the right - isn't a religion.You could be coerced. But is the dynamic any different than a teacher in a science class that offers up an optional after class gathering for those interested in climate advocacy?
I was erring on the side of inclusion and possible messiness at the edges rather than saying no to everything.
I agree with the decision...it isn't forcing religion on anyone.
How about before you take the field as a team? That happened when I was in high school and I doubt we were unique in that and I would bet there will be a lot more of it going forward as football coaches are the virtue signaliest of all virtue signalers. It'll be fine just as long as everyone who doesn't want to participate tells coach man to man "hey your stupid Jesus nonsense isn't for me so this is optional unless you want to get the school district sued."
Link that proves thisAnyone who feels the need to pray in public is only doing so because they want you to see them praying in public. It has nothing to do with God.
So you think it should be banned?It happens with teams all over the country. Teams have prayers before games and not everyone in those huddles believe in the Christian God, but feel it’s safer to just bow their heads and go along with it. That’s fact. Common sense as well.