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Bridge Collapse Baltimore

Jimmy McGill said:
I don't see it cleaned up in 12 months. Of course I didn't stay at a Motel 6 last night.....
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They got the entire Costa Concordia turned right side up, floated, and towed out in 2 years.

I would think the bridge removal is an easier ask, but shit what do I know.
 
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Jimmy McGill said:
This was a massive ship. Honest question here. How much do the fully loaded barges going down the Mississippi River weigh? Apples and Oranges, I know. But is there any chance of something like this happening between Iowa and Louisiana? That would mess up a lot of agriculture.
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One hit the Julien dubuque bridge between Dubuque and illinois roughly 15 years ago. It did no damage. It was closed for a few days for safety inspections but it cleared with no repairs. I think that was more of a nudge though, the pilot was trying to reverse after straying off its path for whatever reason. But yes, it has happened.

But to the other part of your question, each individual barge container has the cargo capacity of MANY rail cars. I want to say it's like 15. The upper mississippi that has a lock system means the tows are configured 3 wide by 4 long to pass through each one. So that's a dozen containers. So each tow is like a 180 car train. The lower Mississippi has HUGE tows. I think they do like 40+ down there.
 
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Jimmy McGill said:
Willing to bet?
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61 days…

It’s finding, cutting and lifting structure from 1200’ that it fell, with probably some extra on either side before they allow shipping.
Can they average 30’ a day when they get going in 2-3 weeks?
Should be able to work both ends inward cutting and lifting. I’m leaning toward yes, they’ll clear the channel in two months.

Labor Day would be automatic bet.
 
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jberesford said:
One hit the Julien dubuque bridge between Dubuque and illinois roughly 15 years ago. It did no damage. It wasthre closed for a few days for safety inspections but it cleared with no repairs. I think that was more of a nudge though, the pilot was trying to reverse after straying off its path for whatever reason. But yes, it has happened.

But to the other part of your question, each individual barge container has the cargo capacity of MANY rail cars. I want to say it's like 15. The upper mississippi that has a lock system means the tows are configured 3 wide by 4 long to pass through each one. So that's a dozen containers. So each tow is like a 180 car train. The lower Mississippi has HUGE tows. I think they do like 40+ down there.
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Thanks. I love learning new things. I did not grow up around the Mississippi. Des Moines river carp were the biggest danger to the Kate Shelly High Bridge where I grew up.

I take that back. I nice tornado threw railroad cars into the river back in the 80's that had Army firearms dumped into the river. Carp and catfish were shooting at each other
 
Never having undertaken such a task...:). I feel like they will be getting ships in and out of that port well prior to Memorial Day, maybe even a month earlier than that. Now I think it will be much longer before everything is cleared everywhere in that port.

But with the "money" in and out of that port, there will be a gigantic effort to clear at least one channel through the mess. Again, that is just my feeling, I could be way wrong, we'll see I guess. Mid-April would not shock me...but again...that is just the minimal amount of work to get a guided ship in and out, not totally cleared.

Also, could they not just drag some pieces out of the way for a temp fix?
 
QChawks said:
Most Americans believe that Abraham Lincoln was our greatest president. Lincoln was also one of America’s greatest lawyers. His folksy style made him a natural as a trial lawyer. He also handled more than 400 appellate cases, most of them in the Illinois Supreme Court and several in the U. S. Supreme Court.

Brian McGinty, a retired Arizona lawyer, has written three books about Lincoln. His most recent is a spellbinding account of one of Lincoln’s most significant cases, titled Lincoln’s Greatest Case: The River, the Bridge, and the Making of America.

The River is the Mighty Mississippi River. The Bridge is the Rock Island Bridge, the first railroad bridge to cross the Mississippi, built during the years 1853-1856 by a private company called the Railroad Bridge Company. It was 1,581 feet long, built of timber, rested on six stone piers, and stretched from the Illinois community of Rock Island to Davenport, Iowa.

The bridge was officially opened to railroad traffic on April 21, 1856. Two weeks later, on May 6, 1856, a steamboat named Effie Afton, which had begun its voyage in Cincinnati, crashed into one of the piers, caught fire, and was completely destroyed. Fortunately, no one was killed. The bridge was badly damaged, but was repaired and reopened to rail traffic in September 1856.

This horrible accident occurred at a time when railroad companies were beginning to overtake steamboats as the primary mode of transporting people and goods. St. Louis was the steamboat capitol of the United States at that time, and its civic leaders did not favor the ascendancy of the railroads. By contrast, Chicago was emerging as an important rail center for the shipment of goods to the East, and its civic leaders had a very different attitude about railroads.

The civic leaders of St. Louis encouraged the owners of the Effie Afton to file suit against the Railroad Bridge Company, with the hope that a large award of damages would discourage the development of other bridges across the Mississippi. In October 1856, the steamboat owners Jacob S. Hurd, Joseph W. Smith and Alexander W. Kidwell filed suit in the U. S. Circuit Court in Chicago. (At that time, each U. S. Supreme Court justice was assigned to a federal circuit and often served as the trial judge in cases tried in Circuit Court.)

The lead attorney for the Railroad Bridge Company was Norman Judd, a veteran Chicago attorney who had met Lincoln through Illinois politics. Judd decided that Lincoln would be a valuable addition to the defense team, and Lincoln agreed in early July 1857 to become a counsel of record in the case.

The trial judge in this jury trial was Supreme Court Justice John McLean, who had been appointed to the court by Andrew Jackson in 1829. At the time of the trial, he was 71 years old and had served on the Supreme Court for 28 years.

Lincoln’s first task was to obtain a continuance from Justice McLean, so that he and the other defense counsel would have adequate time to prepare for trial. There were 1,100 pages of depositions to review and many witnesses to interview. Justice McLean granted a two-month continuance.

The trial lasted 15 days. The jurors listened to more than 100 witnesses, including a number of expert witnesses. The principal closing argument for the defense was delivered by Attorney Abraham Lincoln.

The overriding issue the jury had to decide was whether the bridge constituted a “material obstruction” to steamboats traveling up and down the Mississippi. If the jury found that it did, the Railroad Bridge Company would have to pay substantial damages to the owners of the Effie Afton.

I don’t want to spoil things for readers by revealing the exact outcome of the case. Suffice it to say that no damages were ever paid to the steamboat owners, and the case resulted in no impediment to the development of rail traffic from West to East.

McGinty’s book is spiced up by the appearance of several historical figures. Rock Island (an island in the river over which the bridge passed) was the site of Fort Armstrong from 1817 to 1836. Assistant Army surgeon Dr. John Emerson took his slave Dred Scott with him to Fort Armstrong, and Scott’s time on the Free Soil of Illinois became the basis of his claim that he was a free man, no longer a slave.

In 1837 a young Army lieutenant named Robert E. Lee surveyed the Rock Island Rapids, just upstream from the bridge, to recommend improvements that would make the river safer for steamboat traffic. In 1854 Secretary of War Jefferson Davis (who wanted to build a railroad bridge over the Mississippi River at a Southern location) persuaded President Franklin Pierce to instruct Attorney General Caleb Cushing to seek a court order ejecting the workers building the bridge from Rock Island on the ground that they had no right of way over the island, which he contended was still a military reservation. It didn’t work. Construction continued to completion.

One of the fact witnesses for the defense was tractor magnate John Deere, who lived on the river in Moline, just north of Rock Island, and was familiar with the currents and cross-currents of the river in the vicinity of the bridge.

Finally, the most interesting tidbit in the book illustrates the extraordinary intellect of our 16th President. Abraham Lincoln is the only American president to hold a patent granted by the U. S. Patent Office — Patent No. 6,469. In the context of this book, it is ironic that this patent is for a method of helping steamboats pass over sandbars without having to remove their cargo.
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I believe in the bowels of HORT there is a Lucas80 book review of this.
 
Just my guess, but they move with great speed to clear a channel they can use with some restrictions fairly quickly. Slower speeds, ships with tugs to the far side of the bridge. Maybe shallower drafts first. Move through only under optimal weather/tidal conditions. Maybe exit/enter the port with lower fuel levels and fuel up later?
I saw Sec. Buttigieg’s comments about maybe using Sparrow’s Point, and that is worth exploring. If you know your US history it was a massive steel mill and ship building yard. Volkswagen uses part of it to roll on/off cars. Home Depot and Amazon have warehouses there. The port has to be plenty deep, but the question is how much infrastructure is left to unload cargo containers?
 
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lucas80 said:
Just my guess, but they move with great speed to clear a channel they can use with some restrictions fairly quickly. Slower speeds, ships with tugs to the far side of the bridge. Maybe shallower drafts first. Move through only under optimal weather/tidal conditions. Maybe exit/enter the port with lower fuel levels and fuel up later?
I saw Sec. Buttigieg’s comments about maybe using Sparrow’s Point, and that is worth exploring. If you know your US history it was a massive steel mill and ship building yard. Volkswagen uses part of it to roll on/off cars. Home Depot and Amazon have warehouses there. The port has to be plenty deep, but the question is how much infrastructure is left to unload cargo containers?
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Not much there as far as typical Sobatka style cargo unloading
 
lucas80 said:
Just my guess, but they move with great speed to clear a channel they can use with some restrictions fairly quickly. Slower speeds, ships with tugs to the far side of the bridge. Maybe shallower drafts first. Move through only under optimal weather/tidal conditions. Maybe exit/enter the port with lower fuel levels and fuel up later?
I saw Sec. Buttigieg’s comments about maybe using Sparrow’s Point, and that is worth exploring. If you know your US history it was a massive steel mill and ship building yard. Volkswagen uses part of it to roll on/off cars. Home Depot and Amazon have warehouses there. The port has to be plenty deep, but the question is how much infrastructure is left to unload cargo containers?
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I hope you are right. I really do. I just think this is going to take a long time. That is a lot of stuff in the water. You can't open up the channel with any other risks
 

What to know about the ripple effects of the Baltimore bridge collapse​


The stunning collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge on Tuesday will have economic impacts far beyond the city of Baltimore.
The big picture: The Port of Baltimore, one of the busiest in the U.S., has halted vessel traffic indefinitely in the wake of the bridge's collapse — which is expected to affect the flow of commerce in the U.S.

  • Maryland Gov. Wes Moore (D) declared a state of emergency after a cargo ship, which he said issued a mayday call, struck the bridge early Tuesday. Search teams recovered the bodies of two of six missing construction workers on Wednesday. All were presumed dead.
  • The decades-old bridge offered a key transport helping link Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia and New York.
  • It's too early to determine how long the port will be closed, Maryland Transportation Secretary Paul J. Wiedefeld told reporters Tuesday.

The Port of Baltimore is a vital waterway​

The Port of Baltimore is the top handler in the U.S. of imports and exports of cars and light trucks, according to a statement from Moore's office last month. His office called it "one of the largest economic generators" in the state.

  • It ranks ninth among U.S. harbors for both tonnage and dollar value of foreign cargo passing through.
  • "The collapse of the Key Bridge is a global crisis," Moore said at a Wednesday briefing. "The national economy and the world's economy depends on the Port of Baltimore," he added.
  • "The port handles more cars and more farm equipment than any other port in the country."
By the numbers: In 2023, the port handled a record 52.3 million tons of international cargo, worth about $80.8 billion, according to state's archives.

  • The port supports more than 15,000 direct jobs and more than 139,000 indirect jobs connected to the port, generating almost $3.3 billion in total personal income.
  • Maryland Senate President Bill Ferguson announced Wednesday that he would be introducing an emergency bill to pay workers impacted by the bridge collapse.
  • "The economic and stability loss to the thousands impacted in the days ahead cannot be understated," he wrote on X.
Between the lines: The port's location is a boon for business.

  • It's closer to the Midwest than any other East Coast port and is within an overnight drive's distance from one-third of the country's population, per the Maryland State Archives.
  • Stretching 1.6 miles, the bridge sees about 11.3 million vehicle crossings per year, per MDTA.
  • The bridge also offers more traffic lanes and lower maintenance costs than a tunnel would have.

What other impacts have been observed?​

The bridge's collapse snarled traffic on land and left some ships in the lurch.

  • The Maryland Transportation Authority began redirecting cars to alternate freeway routes after issuing a major traffic alert for Baltimore.
  • At least 10 commercial ships bound for Baltimore were forced to drop anchor in nearby waters Tuesday after port traffic was suspended, Reuters reported.
Between the lines: The bridge collapse just ahead of Easter could mean worse traffic than normal for both families and trucks traveling over the holiday weekend.

  • Several major companies — including Amazon, FedEx and BMW — have distribution warehouses and other facilities at an industrial park at the north end of the bridge, Bloomberg reported.
  • The bottleneck of imports and exports could also spur a shift to moving goods through West Coast ports, according to Bloomberg.

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binsfeldcyhawk2 said:

What to know about the ripple effects of the Baltimore bridge collapse​


The stunning collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge on Tuesday will have economic impacts far beyond the city of Baltimore.
The big picture: The Port of Baltimore, one of the busiest in the U.S., has halted vessel traffic indefinitely in the wake of the bridge's collapse — which is expected to affect the flow of commerce in the U.S.

  • Maryland Gov. Wes Moore (D) declared a state of emergency after a cargo ship, which he said issued a mayday call, struck the bridge early Tuesday. Search teams recovered the bodies of two of six missing construction workers on Wednesday. All were presumed dead.
  • The decades-old bridge offered a key transport helping link Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia and New York.
  • It's too early to determine how long the port will be closed, Maryland Transportation Secretary Paul J. Wiedefeld told reporters Tuesday.

The Port of Baltimore is a vital waterway​

The Port of Baltimore is the top handler in the U.S. of imports and exports of cars and light trucks, according to a statement from Moore's office last month. His office called it "one of the largest economic generators" in the state.

  • It ranks ninth among U.S. harbors for both tonnage and dollar value of foreign cargo passing through.
  • "The collapse of the Key Bridge is a global crisis," Moore said at a Wednesday briefing. "The national economy and the world's economy depends on the Port of Baltimore," he added.
  • "The port handles more cars and more farm equipment than any other port in the country."
By the numbers: In 2023, the port handled a record 52.3 million tons of international cargo, worth about $80.8 billion, according to state's archives.

  • The port supports more than 15,000 direct jobs and more than 139,000 indirect jobs connected to the port, generating almost $3.3 billion in total personal income.
  • Maryland Senate President Bill Ferguson announced Wednesday that he would be introducing an emergency bill to pay workers impacted by the bridge collapse.
  • "The economic and stability loss to the thousands impacted in the days ahead cannot be understated," he wrote on X.
Between the lines: The port's location is a boon for business.

  • It's closer to the Midwest than any other East Coast port and is within an overnight drive's distance from one-third of the country's population, per the Maryland State Archives.
  • Stretching 1.6 miles, the bridge sees about 11.3 million vehicle crossings per year, per MDTA.
  • The bridge also offers more traffic lanes and lower maintenance costs than a tunnel would have.

What other impacts have been observed?​

The bridge's collapse snarled traffic on land and left some ships in the lurch.

  • The Maryland Transportation Authority began redirecting cars to alternate freeway routes after issuing a major traffic alert for Baltimore.
  • At least 10 commercial ships bound for Baltimore were forced to drop anchor in nearby waters Tuesday after port traffic was suspended, Reuters reported.
Between the lines: The bridge collapse just ahead of Easter could mean worse traffic than normal for both families and trucks traveling over the holiday weekend.

  • Several major companies — including Amazon, FedEx and BMW — have distribution warehouses and other facilities at an industrial park at the north end of the bridge, Bloomberg reported.
  • The bottleneck of imports and exports could also spur a shift to moving goods through West Coast ports, according to Bloomberg.

Loading…

www.axios.com
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Hopefully this will be a case that overturns or limits application of Robin’s Dry Dock - because right now none of the pure economic damages w/o corresponding property damage are recoverable in a claim against the vessel.
 
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seminole97 said:
61 days…

It’s finding, cutting and lifting structure from 1200’ that it fell, with probably some extra on either side before they allow shipping.
Can they average 30’ a day when they get going in 2-3 weeks?
Should be able to work both ends inward cutting and lifting. I’m leaning toward yes, they’ll clear the channel in two months.

Labor Day would be automatic bet.
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Yeah, I agree. I think they’ll have a channel open quickly.
 
Fijimn said:
A pilot would have been navigating the vessel.
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I sailed on the Chesapeake for 3 decades. The shipping channels are narrow, currents are strong. There is no possibility for a vessel of that size to kill its speed in tight quarters. It appears the ship lost power(?).

Does a 1.000' ship depend on a single circuit breaker? Sounds like Titanic engineering.

Anyway, it is bringing out the conspiracy theory bridge busting, cloud seeding, anti-vaxxing, election denying, flat earth wackos. The Fox News group.
 
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