Carl Sagan on the Existence of God

[LuciousBDragon]

You're correct...except for being wrong.

Disagree. He is quoted specifically stating sins were forgiven. Knowing his audience, he may as well said “I am who I am.” The crowd called Him out as blasphemous for a reason. He goes on to say Son of Man. Effectively the same.

Nevermind Jesus’s few but remarkable words in front of Pilate.

I get it, you will disagree with me automatically. We can agree to disagree.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Disagree. He is quoted specifically stating sins were forgiven. Knowing his audience, he may as well said “I am who I am.” The crowd called Him out as blasphemous for a reason. He goes on to say Son of Man. Effectively the same.

Nevermind Jesus’s few but remarkable words in front of Pilate.

I get it, you will disagree with me automatically. We can agree to disagree.

But he didn't say "I forgive your sins". I'm fairly certain priests can say, "Your sins are forgiven". Are they all gods? And I assume you mean "Son of God". Which means, as the son of my father, I am my father? Effectively and certainly not the same.

 

[HawkRugged17]

 

[BHawkeye1999]

But he didn't say "I forgive your sins". I'm fairly certain priests can say, "Your sins are forgiven". Are they all gods? And I assume you mean "Son of God". Which means, as the son of my father, I am my father? Effectively and certainly not the same.

Jesus gave the apostles the ability to forgive sins after He resurrected and that was passed down through the Church.

It has nothing to do with them being gods, lol.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Jesus gave the apostles the ability to forgive sins after He resurrected and that was passed down through the Church.

It has nothing to do with them being gods, lol.

Non-responsive and theologically incorrect. Only God can forgive.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

But he didn't say "I forgive your sins". I'm fairly certain priests can say, "Your sins are forgiven". Are they all gods? And I assume you mean "Son of God". Which means, as the son of my father, I am my father? Effectively and certainly not the same.

In the context of who he was speaking with, he certainly was equating himself with God. Hence the claims of blasphemy that were documented that followed. The context is important and cannot be disregarded. Jesus also repeatedly used the “Son of Man” claim. It is clear that this was a call to His own divinity. This may not have been explicitly understood around 30 AD, but we know now.

Again, no need to agree with me. The exchange of ideas is fascinating.

 

[BHawkeye1999]

Non-responsive and theologically incorrect. Only God can forgive.

It's all thoroughly Biblical.

John 20:23
New International Version
​

23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

 

[strummingram]

I'm just really glad that we've arrived at a blatantly-obvious consensus on biblical interpretation.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

In the context of who he was speaking with, he certainly was equating himself with God. Hence the claims of blasphemy that were documented that followed. The context is important and cannot be disregarded. Jesus also repeatedly used the “Son of Man” claim. It is clear that this was a call to His own divinity. This may not have been explicitly understood around 30 AD, but we know now.

Again, no need to agree with me. The exchange of ideas is fascinating.

So he never made the claim...we're left to infer it from "context". And what that context makes crystal clear to you is clear as mud to others. And, of course, there is the obvious issue that none of this was recorded for decades.

 

[hwk23]

Einstein called the problem of the existence of God the most complicated in the universe and most likely beyond the scope of the the human mind. This is not a 2+2 problem. For the record he never made such a claim about Santa Claus.

Ok here is my personal belief in a nutshell. Personally I believe humans share a collective unconscious and are connected in ways not understood, a sort of spiritual portal within. Stories and myths connect us and teach us on a deeper level than is understood, almost as if ingrained in our DNA and evolution. There are hints everywhere, things like the placebo effect, that hint at an unexplained power of the human mind. It's not the same experience for everyone. Jesus, Buddha, Socrates and others (I believe) had a more direct connection to the collective unconsciousness. The writers of the bible were either connected, knew people connected or knew stories that resonated as true but they were imperfect and didn't always interpret everything correctly. Socrates believed in an inner Devine voice. God, for a lack of a better term, resides within.

 

[BHawkeye1999]

Einstein called the problem of the existence of God the most complicated in the universe and most likely beyond the scope of the the human mind. This is not a 2+2 problem. For the record he never made such a claim about Santa Claus.

Ok here is my personal belief in a nutshell. Personally I believe humans share a collective unconscious and are connected in ways not understood, a sort of spiritual portal within. Stories and myths connect us and teach us on a deeper level than is understood, almost as if ingrained in our DNA and evolution. There are hints everywhere, things like the placebo effect, that hint at an unexplained power of the human mind. It's not the same experience for everyone. Jesus, Buddha, Socrates and others (I believe) had a more direct connection to the collective unconsciousness. The writers of the bible were either connected, knew people connected or knew stories that resonated as true but they were imperfect and didn't always interpret everything correctly. Socrates believed in an inner Devine voice. God, for a lack of a better term, resides within.

Socrates also believed in the immortal human soul. When he was forced to commit suicide, he said that death was the soul releasing from the body.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

So he never made the claim...we're left to infer it from "context". And what that context makes crystal clear to you is clear as mud to others. And, of course, there is the obvious issue that none of this was recorded for decades.

Thankfully, we have the book of John for that!

 

[strummingram]

Socrates also believed in the immortal human soul. When he was forced to commit suicide, he said that death was the soul releasing from the body.

I hope Jesus was around so he could ask him to forgive him.

 

[BHawkeye1999]

I hope Jesus was around so he could ask him to forgive him.

OK.

 

[strummingram]

Thankfully, we have the book of John for that!

For what? You never answer a question at all.

 

[strummingram]

Too bad there aren't more representatives from other religious beliefs to challenge and correct the ones already given!

 

[the24fan]

In the context of who he was speaking with, he certainly was equating himself with God. Hence the claims of blasphemy that were documented that followed. The context is important and cannot be disregarded. Jesus also repeatedly used the “Son of Man” claim. It is clear that this was a call to His own divinity. This may not have been explicitly understood around 30 AD, but we know now.

Again, no need to agree with me. The exchange of ideas is fascinating.

I thought I was done here but I will chime in and ask you to explain John 20:17
Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God”
Jesus clearly is taking about someone else here. HIS GOD. That indicates he recognized a higher power! He could not be God if he recognized a higher individual than himself!
Also the question of-Who resurrected Jesus? Did he resurrect himself? Or did God resurrect him and exalt him to a superior position after he ascended back to heaven ?
Philippians 2:9-Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
I’ve had my share of disagreements with some on here but the Trinity is not a Bible teaching! It was not even heard of until the 3rd century and only signed into the creed because Constantine strong armed the bishops into ratifying the belief into the Church.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

For what? You never answer a question at all.

It’s all good! John and the other Gospels take care of that!

 

[strummingram]

It’s all good! John and the other Gospels take care of that!

The Jehovah's Witness needs your attention above.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

I thought u was done here but I will chime in and ask you to explain John 20:17
Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God”
Jesus clearly is taking about someone else here. HIS GOD. That indicates he recognized a higher power! He could not be God if he recognized a higher individual than himself!
Also the question of-Who resurrected Jesus? Did he resurrect himself? Or did God resurrect him and exalt him to a superior position after he ascended back to heaven ?
Philippians 2:9-Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
I’ve had my share of disagreements with some on here but the Trinity is not a Bible teaching! It was not even heard of until the 3rd century and only signed into the creed because Constantine strong armed the bishops into ratifying the belief into the Church.

Sorry my JW friend, I’m a trinity believer. 3-in-1 4 life yo! What whaaat!

 

[LuciousBDragon]

The Jehovah's Witness needs your attention above.

I never answered the door when they came knocking in person but maybe I’ll answer the digital message board door!

 

[the24fan]

Sorry my JW friend, I’m a trinity believer. 3-in-1 4 life yo! What whaaat!

Please explain the above scriptures to me? Why did Jesus call his Father my God.
Why does it say God exalted him to a superior position ? Doesn’t it take someone else to exalt you to a higher position .
Or maybe Colossians 1:15 where it calls Jesus the firstborn of all creation? If he was God why would he need to be the firstborn of creation ? God is not firstborn but everlasting to everlasting as you well know.

 

[BHawkeye1999]

Please explain the above scriptures to me? Why did Jesus call his Father my God.
Why does it say God exalted him to a superior position ? Doesn’t it take someone else to exalt you to a higher position .
Or maybe Colossians 1:15 where it calls Jesus the firstborn of all creation? If he was God why would he need to be the firstborn of creation ? God is not firstborn but everlasting to everlasting as you well know.

Because God is a Trinity, according to Christianity.

Jehovas Witnesses are not Christian.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

Please explain the above scriptures to me? Why did Jesus call his Father my God.
Why does it say God exalted him to a superior position ? Doesn’t it take someone else to exalt you to a higher position .
Or maybe Colossians 1:15 where it calls Jesus the firstborn of all creation? If he was God why would he need to be the firstborn of creation ? God is not firstborn but everlasting to everlasting as you well know.

For starters:
John 10:30
Colossians 2:9

Jehovahs Witnesses believe:
1 God + 1 Jesus + 1 Holy Spirit = 3 Gods

Christians believe:
1 x 1 x 1 = 1 God
(ISAIAH 44:6)

 

[the24fan]

Because God is a Trinity, according to Christianity.

Jehovas Witnesses are not Christian.

Wrong. We not only believe in Christ we serve him as Gods appointed King. We also recognize him as the messiah and the redeemer of mankind . His death opens the way for those who have faith in his sacrifice the opportunity to have everlasting life . Sorry to break the bad news to you but we are VERY CHRISTIAN

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Thankfully, we have the book of John for that!

The Book of John is generally regarded as the Quaker Gospel. But we don't believe it was divinely inspired.

God, for a lack of a better term, resides within.

John 1:6-9 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[the24fan]

For starters:
John 10:30
Colossians 2:9

Jehovahs Witnesses believe:
1 God + 1 Jesus + 1 Holy Spirit = 3 Gods

Christians believe:
1 x 1 x 1 = 1 God
(ISAIAH 44:6)

wrong as well.
1. Almighty God-His name being Jehovah(Yahweh ) if you like
2. Jesus-Gods only begotten Son as he so often identifies himself.
3. Holy Spirit -Gods active force or power in action.

 

[the24fan]

Because God is a Trinity, according to Christianity.

Jehovas Witnesses are not Christian.

So tell me did Jesus disciples believe in a triune God? Nope
The Trinity did not become a teaching until after 300CE. 300 years after Jesus was on the earth .

 

[LuciousBDragon]

The Book of John is generally regarded as the Quaker Gospel. But we don't believe it was divinely inspired.

Interesting, pretty sure John is a little more widely accepted than just the Quakers. Afterall, John 3:16 comes from there. You know, one of the single most Christian verses ever uttered on Earth.

Quaker huh? I learned something new today!

 

[LuciousBDragon]

wrong as well.
1. Almighty God-His name being Jehovah(Yahweh ) if you like
2. Jesus-Gods only begotten Son as he so often identifies himself.
3. Holy Spirit -Gods active force or power in action.

Sorry bro, not buying what you’re selling. I respect the hustle though.

 

[the24fan]

Sorry bro, not buying what you’re selling. I respect the hustle though.

It’s ok I can’t match the trinities clear cut teaching. From my experience in talking with them they can’t even explain it. Although they say it’s the central doctrine it’s awfully confusing .

 

[strummingram]

Now, there are THREE religious people arguing about which religion that Jesus of Nazareth indirectly fostered is the "more correct" one.

A thousand years ago, they'd have been killing each other to prove it. Well, not really. The Jehovah's Witnesses are fairly new to the show, only 150 years.

 

[BlackNGoldBleeder]

Now, there are THREE religious people arguing about which religion that Jesus of Nazareth indirectly fostered is the "more correct" one.

A thousand years ago, they'd have been killing each other to prove it. Well, not really. The Jehovah's Witnesses are fairly new to the show, only 150 years.

Arrogant, pugnacious people arbitrarily throwing out Bible verses to attack one another with. The Jehovah's Witness is the most likable of the three.

 

[DFSNOLE]

So tell me did Jesus disciples believe in a triune God? Nope
The Trinity did not become a teaching until after 300CE. 300 years after Jesus was on the earth .

First, stop with the bold font. It's irritating.

Second, I've already addressed this. The disciples only knew the God of Abraham. Jesus claimed to be equal to the Father multiple times several of which I have already quoted in this thread.

Third, the Holy Spirit wasn't introduced until the ascension so there was no way for them to know about Him.

You are being obtuse whether purposely or not.

 

[the24fan]

First, stop with the bold font. It's irritating.

Second, I've already addressed this. The disciples only knew the God of Abraham. Jesus claimed to be equal to the Father multiple times several of which I have already quoted in this thread.

Third, the Holy Spirit wasn't introduced until the ascension so there was no way for them to know about Him.

You are being obtuse whether purposely or not.

Of course you are the expert apparently. Your idea of Jesus. Claiming to be equal is just plain wrong . Sorry
I’ll present you with the same question and let’s see if you car to answer how it is Jesus called his Father MY GOD?
How could Jesus be god if he was created? You seem to not want to explain this!
You have the floor . Go

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Interesting, pretty sure John is a little more widely accepted than just the Quakers. Afterall, John 3:16 comes from there. You know, one of the single most Christian verses ever uttered on Earth.

Quaker huh? I learned something new today!

Sorry...I wasn't implying it wasn't accepted by others but it's the gospel that inspired George Fox to found the Society of Friends.

 

[Urohawk]

You know what the Bible say about not forgiving people?

I'm not really sure how to answer this. I believe it recommends to cut them down with swords and then give the survivors the plague.

When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain.

20 And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.
21 He said to Aaron, "What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?"
22 "Do not be angry, my lord," Aaron answered. "You know how prone these people are to evil.
23 They said to me, `Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him.'
24 So I told them, `Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.' Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!"
25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies.
26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.
27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'"
28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.
29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."
30 The next day Moses said to the people, "You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin."
31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold.
32 But now, please forgive their sin--but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written."
33 The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin."
35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

 

[BHawkeye1999]

Wrong. We not only believe in Christ we serve him as Gods appointed King. We also recognize him as the messiah and the redeemer of mankind . His death opens the way for those who have faith in his sacrifice the opportunity to ice everlasting life . Sorry to break the bad news to you but we are VERY CHRISTIAN

Well, that's good.

Do you believe He resurrected from the dead?

 

[DFSNOLE]

Of course you are the expert apparently. Your idea of Jesus. Claiming to be equal is just plain wrong . Sorry
I’ll present you with the same question and let’s see if you car to answer how it is Jesus called his Father MY GOD?
How could Jesus be god if he was created? You seem to not want to explain this!
You have the floor . Go

First, stop with the bold or this is my last response to you.

You say Jesus was created. I and the Bible never says that.

 

[strummingram]

Arrogant, pugnacious people arbitrarily throwing out Bible verses to attack one another with. The Jehovah's Witness is the most likable of the three.

Ya think???