Carl Sagan on the Existence of God
- Thread starter What Would Jesus Do?
- Start date
I'm trying to be inclusive. They're all a part of our existence and consciousness. When I say "fine and good", I mean... well... they're here, so make the most of them, I guess.
It does seem to archaic and obsolete that "God" is a He and He is in competition with other Gods somewhere trying to protect His followers while expecting them to also abide by His commands. It sounds so ancient... like when we had Kings and nobility ruled the world. It's much more tricky for a King (God) to exist now in a self-governing society.
Then stop using the clergy, or the Catholic Church links, to reinforce your bias perception. Just use the New testament Gospels.
Quick yes/no question for you.
Based on this ^^^ statement you made, have you found any evidence to support your belief?
Both are great.
You should study Thomas Aquinas. He explains everything. His intellectual depth is amazing.
Texts
Links to On-line Texts of St. Thomas Aquinas. (Incomplete – To suggest additions, please comment below) Opera Omina – The Complete Works of St. Thomas Aquinas in Latin Corpus Thomi…
aquinasonline.com
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He's been approved by The Catholic Church, right?Both are great.
You should study Thomas Aquinas. He explains everything. His intellectual depth is amazing.
Texts
Links to On-line Texts of St. Thomas Aquinas. (Incomplete – To suggest additions, please comment below) Opera Omina – The Complete Works of St. Thomas Aquinas in Latin Corpus Thomi…
ETA: He explains "everything?"
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I thought you might enjoy this read: it touches on some of your points. Feel free to use your copy of the scriptures.
Couple things on your response ..
1. I agree in principle on your thought of gender. Since God is spirit it would be dogmatic to assign him male. However Bible writers employed the masculine gender when referring to God. They saw in man, who was created in God’s image and properly fulfilling his role, an appropriate reflection of God’s loving, fatherly interest in his earthly children.
2. His laws and principles have not changed . As far as Gods standards of right and wrong they have not changed.
Malachi 3:6-“For I am Jehovah; I do not change.
Humans have watered down his clear standards of right and wrong and have decided to choose for themselves what is acceptable behavior . How has that worked overall? Do you think mans ruling himself and making his own rules have been a success? I would argue it’s been a resounding failure . Morally , spiritually , politically ….independence from Gods standards have put us and the world in the conditions we see around us.
3. You never did answer what the purpose of life is?
What do you think happens when you die?
I'm sure that any Bible-based religion has an abundance of... confirmations?... to back-up whatever it is they need to believe. And, when you mentioned "dogmatic"... man, that's every religion's first rule- Accept the Dogma! "We'll assist you with suspending disbelief!"
And, you keep referring to "God" like it's a He. And, He's something that cobbled the universe out of whatever He had at the time. And, He has all of these stipulations. And, all of this stuff HE is comes from a book written by ancient Hebrews. You never consider the billions and billions of other things God is. For you, God is, quite literally, an interpretation taken from ancient manuscripts. And, that's cool. God is a lot more than that for me.
I don't know that there is a "purpose" of life. Purpose is like "Time"... it's something humans literally made-up in order to try and help them explain their existence. Time doesn't really exist except in our collective consciousness. The rest of the living things, at best, might respond to the cycles of the earth rotating around the sun. But, rows of corn growing in the fields, my two dogs, volcanoes, etc., have no idea about the concept of time! They don't have any need for "tomorrow afternoon."
Once this form I'm in now stops functioning, I'll probably pass into other form(s), just like I was doing before I wound-up in this one. All the little parts of me will find new places to be!
This is a very modern interpretation - and one that many dismiss, despite aggressive propaganda efforts by some religious franchises. I would need to see proof that Jesus thought this way before I'd believe it.
But, again, your difficulty seeing how he would support that is not evidence that he opposed abortion.
Well brother I’d say we have two very different viewpoints on this subject and that’s ok . It’s what makes the world interesting. For me I stick to what I believe is Gods thoughts to man expressed through his written word. To me that’s the path that leads to what I have confidence in : The long term solution to the worlds problems is God’s Kingdom, which permanently will solve the problems that we face as humans and most importantly accomplishes what Jesus said was most important as stated in his model prayer .
“Our Father in the Heavens let your name be sanctified!”
To me there is nothing more important than the sanctification of Gods great name which will ultimately be accomplished by the establishment of his Kingdom on earth.
Well one could argue that abortion goes against the two greatest commands that Jesus gave his followers in Matthew 22:37-39-Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself
loving your neighbor as yourself would include not killing them I’m sure . You could apply this principle to unborn children.
Calling fetuses "neighbors" is like calling them "children."
Even today, with decades of slogans equating abortion with murdering children, my guess is that most people don't think of fetuses as children. "Children" means something else. Ditto for "neighbor."
Is there any reason to think that someone who grew up in Jesus's times would have thought that fetuses were neighbors or children?
Sure. Jesus said it.
"Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19] Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
(Matthew 19:18-19).
Yes. He's also widely accepted as one of the most brilliant Christian thinkers in history by non-Christians, too.
Do you not agree that abortion is killing?
I thought that was widely accepted even by supporters.
I agree that killing a fetus is not the same as killing a toddler, but it's still killing
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The book of Jeremiah (v1:5) states:
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
Jesus was well aware of the books of the Old Testament and quoted Jeremiah in His other teachings.
I'm very familiar with Aquinas. It was facetious and rhetorical. But, thanks for the link.
Not in the sense of killing a person.
Most civilized people agree that killing a person is usually wrong. But most of us are also willing to make exceptions - such as defense of self or others, war, or punishment for treason or heinous crimes.
So the questions for today are:
1) whether the fetus counts as a person;
2) whether an abortion is a killing; and
3) if a fetus is counted as a person, and if abortion is counted as killing, whether this is one of the exceptions we are willing to make to permit the "killing" of the fetal "person."
But note that those are questions for today, and not likely to reflect how people thought about fetuses in Jesus's times.
If you are using this as an argument to criminalize abortion, please note that it is equally an argument to criminalize anything that prevents any human ovum from being fertilized and brought to term.
More reasonable, I think, is to see that as a statement about Jesus himself, rather than a statement about all as-yet-to-be-conceived or all as-yet-to-be-born potential-persons.
I’m aware of this. Thank you for the disclaimer. It is clear that God knows us well before we are born of the flesh.
When you kill a spider, that is a form of killing. You step on ants, bugs, all kinds of "lesser things" and never even think about it. You swat a mosquito on your arm... KILLING it!
The sanctity of life is just more human invention. Humans came-up with it and it obviously FAVORS THEM! If a bear attacks a human and another human shoots and kills the bear, everyone says that the shooter "saved his life!" Well, the bears don't feel that way, do they?
Well, duh.
Do you really think that flies, bears and and mosquitoes are as important as humans?
HAHAHA!
That is perfection, right there! "... as important as humans." Important based on what??? Importance based on HUMAN perception?
I can promise you this; If we don't have the BEES? You'll find out just how important human beings are, in a hurry! Humans have yet to develop pollination organs in their bodies. God kept that on the down-low when "He" dictated Scripture to the other human beings. But, humans are acutely aware of the delicate balance even without the use of The bible and Thomas Aquinas to know everything we need to know.
You are so indoctrinated, and you have no idea how indoctrinated you are.
And this is why I let @strummingram be the one to pose that argument.
Strum is right, of course, but I just didn't want to face the "how dare you compare" backlash.
One of these days maybe I'll figure out a response that doesn't dig the hole deeper.
Hey, at least strum didn't use the "removing a tumor kills the tumor" argument. It's a valid argument, in the sense that, like a fetus, it's a discrete entity comprised of human cells. But it never goes down well.
"Save The Trees" = great bumper sticker
"Save The Whales" = great bumper sticker
"Save Advanced Melanoma" = WTF?
Wait.
Do you believe that a bee has as much worth as a human being?
You can't truly be this insane. Can you?
You guys are proving my point about the atheist value system.
Equating human life to flies and insects is insanity but the atheist value system is arbitrary so it kinda makes sense, from your perspective.
It's more proof why atheism leads to madness, IMO.
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Regarding the death part, I’m always a bit surprised at people who find it inconceivable that death might actually be the end. What’s so hard about that notion? I wasn’t around for millions of years before I was born. There’s no reason to think I won’t be around for millions of years after. Certainly when I was a child it was frightening to think about. But I don’t understand how an adult could still find it difficult to grasp.
As for purpose, I fail to see how The Bible provides any purpose in life other than to spend it earning your way into another kind of life in a different realm. But then what? What would the purpose be in the afterlife? You’re just hanging out with your relatives in bliss. Where is the purpose?
And why do we need a purpose? What is so hard about the notion that we are a brief blip in the universe? Other life has no inherent purpose. Why would ours?
The Bible provides a blueprint for how to live a better life in this world as well. The purpose of an afterlife is eternal union with God, the reason why we were created.
Without that, one compares human life to insects, as Strum and WWJD in this thread.
I'm pretty sure that atheists like Lenin, Mao, Stalin, Mussolini, Kim Jong Un,, Pol Pot and Evner Hoxha agree.
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