Confirmed ...vouchers were a handout to wealthy.

[bojihawk44]

Has that ever happened? A closure.
Cause I've seen a lot of restaurants go out of business and be replaced by better ones.
The threat of consumer demand isn't a hollow one.


If I decide that Chick-fil-A isn't good enough, and I take my money to Popeyes, am I costing Chick-fil-A money, or is their inability to satisfy my needs costing them money?
Who do you think bears the responsibility?

Is this concept a difficult one?

No, a closure had never happened because there are standards to meet and the public schools always meet the standards and show improvement when put in a bad situation. That is all measurable and public because there are actual requirements for public schools that don't apply to private schools for no apparent reason.

Your last analogy makes no sense, but that seems to be par for there course for voucher scam advocates.

 

[seminole97]

No, a closure had never happened because there are standards to meet and the public schools always meet the standards and show improvement when put in a bad situation.

Restaurants have inescapable standards to meet - the public's.
Failure to meet those standards means resources quit walking through the door, and the entrepreneur who cannot manage resources to satisfy the public quickly learns the public will bring them no more resources to manage.

Restaurants fail to meet public standards at an amazing rate, and firms fold and new ones with new management and ideas to satisfy public demand spring up to replace them.

That is all measurable and public because there are actual requirements for public schools that don't apply to private schools for no apparent reason.

Profit/loss is the measurable and inescapable audit facing every private concern out there that exists to fulfill a public demand.
Satisfying pubic demand, evidenced by winning consumer support, is a requirement that doesn't apply to public schools for no apparent reason.
Make them compete, it's the only way to weed out bad ones. You acknowledge above there is no weeding out under the old model. That is a serious flaw.

Your last analogy makes no sense, but that seems to be par for there course for voucher scam advocates.

I'm willing to walk you through it, but you have to answer first.
Do you 'cost' someone else money if you take your business elsewhere? Do they somehow own your business? Or do they have to compete for it, to your exacting standards.

 

[MitchLL]

The clear hypocrisy of the voucher program is private schools can selectively accept students.

It's not a difficult concept to understand.

So public schools will always have the bigger challenge with academic performance and other roadblocks with special education and behaviorial cases.
Let me know when private schools take voucher applications on a first come/first serve basis.

 

[Hawki97]

The clear hypocrisy of the voucher program is private schools can selectively accept students.

It's not a difficult concept to understand.

So public schools will always have the bigger challenge with academic performance and other roadblocks with special education and behaviorial cases.
Let me know when private schools take voucher applications on a first come/first serve basis.

School’s choice. And now mama can get the AMG instead of the C-Class with all that extra (taxpayer funded) tuition money coming back into her pocket!

To be fair though, it is beautiful.

 

[MitchLL]

School’s choice. And now mama can get the AMG instead of the C-Class with all that extra (taxpayer funded) tuition money coming back into her pocket!

To be fair though, it is beautiful.

Actually, the private school student got that one!

 

[Hawki97]

Actually, the private school student got that one!

Hell, why not for everyone?! No reason to not triple tuition now! Private school teacher parking lots be like…

 

[MitchLL]

Hell, why not for everyone?! No reason to not triple tuition now! Private school teacher parking lots be like…

Regina or Dowling?

 

[bojihawk44]

Restaurants have inescapable standards to meet - the public's.
Failure to meet those standards means resources quit walking through the door, and the entrepreneur who cannot manage resources to satisfy the public quickly learns the public will bring them no more resources to manage.

Restaurants fail to meet public standards at an amazing rate, and firms fold and new ones with new management and ideas to satisfy public demand spring up to replace them.


Profit/loss is the measurable and inescapable audit facing every private concern out there that exists to fulfill a public demand.
Satisfying pubic demand, evidenced by winning consumer support, is a requirement that doesn't apply to public schools for no apparent reason.
Make them compete, it's the only way to weed out bad ones. You acknowledge above there is no weeding out under the old model. That is a serious flaw.


I'm willing to walk you through it, but you have to answer first.
Do you 'cost' someone else money if you take your business elsewhere? Do they somehow own your business? Or do they have to compete for it, to your exacting standards.

This is just bullshit jargon with no actual substance.

Have a good one.

 

[Hawki97]

This is just bullshit jargon with no actual substance.

Have a good one.

He’s trying sooooooooo hard though.

 

[RileyHawk]

Exceeded by 25% with 33% new students. Sounds like it was more than expected. I think this thread was bitching about a positive aspect of these vouchers. You guys just like to bitch.

So even the expectations were that this is a handout to families that were already attending private school. The notion that this is to provide better education opportunities for all students is a complete sham. We agree on that.

 

[MitchLL]

He’s trying sooooooooo hard though.

On a subject that he has zero knowledge of, as well.

Just a narrative.

 

[RileyHawk]

State reports almost 17,000 students used vouchers for private school in 2023

According to enrollment data released by the Iowa Department of Education on Friday, 16,757 students used Iowa’s new Educational Savings Accounts to pay for private school during the current school year. The program passed in early 2023 after an expedited legislative consideration that took two...

dailyiowan.com

Certified enrollment for 2023-24 holds steady; 16,757 ESA participants enrolled at Iowa accredited nonpublic schools

Today, the Iowa Department of Education announced 2023 fall certified enrollment numbers.

educate.iowa.gov

Approximately 33.7% of the 16,757 student participants who used an ESA at an Iowa accredited nonpublic school for the 2023-24 school year did not previously attend a nonpublic school. About 12.7% of the student ESA participants previously attended a public school. Close to 21% of the student ESA participants were entering kindergarten students.

So less that .5% of public school student population moved to private school. 87% of the vouchers went to students already attending private school or new kindergarteners who the vast majority were heading to private school anyway.

These numbers highlight what a freaking sham this policy is. It's not about providing a better education for public school students, it's about lining the pockets of religious entities and the people who support them.

 

[Moral]

Pretty impressive that Iowa republicans got republican voters to support a program that gives financial relief to people that were already able to afford private school for their kids.

 

[anon_911569jwrmy3z]

Only 33% of ESA went to new students!

What a freaking joke.

My record on this subject is being against public funds going to private schools. With that said, 100% of the dollars distributed have been needs based. How does your data point support that it was a handout for the wealthy? Help me understand...

 

[praguehawk]

Restaurants have inescapable standards to meet - the public's.
Failure to meet those standards means resources quit walking through the door, and the entrepreneur who cannot manage resources to satisfy the public quickly learns the public will bring them no more resources to manage.

Restaurants fail to meet public standards at an amazing rate, and firms fold and new ones with new management and ideas to satisfy public demand spring up to replace them.


Profit/loss is the measurable and inescapable audit facing every private concern out there that exists to fulfill a public demand.
Satisfying pubic demand, evidenced by winning consumer support, is a requirement that doesn't apply to public schools for no apparent reason.
Make them compete, it's the only way to weed out bad ones. You acknowledge above there is no weeding out under the old model. That is a serious flaw.


I'm willing to walk you through it, but you have to answer first.
Do you 'cost' someone else money if you take your business elsewhere? Do they somehow own your business? Or do they have to compete for it, to your exacting standards.

Education should not be a for-profit endeavor for K-12. Your arguments are incredibly off the mark.

 

[MitchLL]

My record on this subject is being against public funds going to private schools. With that said, 100% of the dollars distributed have been needs based. How does your data point support that it was a handout for the wealthy? Help me understand...

Need based.

Somehow, that parent already sending their kids to private schools was able to afford doing so. And it was their choice.
A "subsidy" any way you slice it.
Then...the grift, private schools with big increases in tuition for the 23/24 school year.

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

School’s choice. And now mama can get the AMG instead of the C-Class with all that extra (taxpayer funded) tuition money coming back into her pocket!

To be fair though, it is beautiful.

Don't get Mitch going on cars. A while back he was about to stroke out over the cars in a private school parking lot.

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

My record on this subject is being against public funds going to private schools. With that said, 100% of the dollars distributed have been needs based. How does your data point support that it was a handout for the wealthy? Help me understand...

For existing private school students it's needs based the first two years.

But I thought that new students immediatley receive the full voucher.

@Pinehawk

Is that correct?

 

[gohawks50]

So less that .5% of public school student population moved to private school. 87% of the vouchers went to students already attending private school or new kindergarteners who the vast majority were heading to private school anyway.

These numbers highlight what a freaking sham this policy is. It's not about providing a better education for public school students, it's about lining the pockets of religious entities and the people who support them.

And private school enrollment grew by less than 3000 students. Definitely not something that provided a benefit for the majority of Iowans, but rural Iowans continue to vote against their own interests,

Certified enrollment at Iowa accredited nonpublic schools was 36,195, up from 33,692 last year, an increase of 7.4%.

 

[Pinehawk]

For existing private school students it's needs based the first two years.

But I thought that new students immediatley receive the full voucher.

@Pinehawk

Is that correct?

No, I believe it’s entirely income dependent this first year, with the limit being raised each of the next two years.

 

[RicoSuave102954]

Only 33% of ESA went to new students!

What a freaking joke.

Liar!

Income limits in place in year 1, if you think those people are wealthy then you must be a really really poor person.

 

[SL Hawk Fan]

State reports almost 17,000 students used vouchers for private school in 2023

According to enrollment data released by the Iowa Department of Education on Friday, 16,757 students used Iowa’s new Educational Savings Accounts to pay for private school during the current school year. The program passed in early 2023 after an expedited legislative consideration that took two...

dailyiowan.com

Certified enrollment for 2023-24 holds steady; 16,757 ESA participants enrolled at Iowa accredited nonpublic schools

Today, the Iowa Department of Education announced 2023 fall certified enrollment numbers.

educate.iowa.gov

Approximately 33.7% of the 16,757 student participants who used an ESA at an Iowa accredited nonpublic school for the 2023-24 school year did not previously attend a nonpublic school. About 12.7% of the student ESA participants previously attended a public school. Close to 21% of the student ESA participants were entering kindergarten students.

Damn! That's even worse! Less than 13% of the students/families benefiting from the program were “escaping” the public schools in which they were previously enrolled.

 

[MitchLL]

Liar!

Income limits in place in year 1, if you think those people are wealthy then you must be a really really poor person.

You dense?

Nearly 2/3 of vouchers went to parents of students already attending private schools.

Really weak effort to deflect.

Be better and up your game.

 

[RicoSuave102954]

You dense?

Nearly 2/3 of vouchers went to parents of students already attending private schools.

Really weak effort to deflect.

Be better and up your game.

You said "wealthy".

Those families were poor, probably skipping meals in order to save enough to provide their children with a good education.

The vouchers helped those poor families scrap by.

A liberal Democrat like you would begrudge a family having enough money to provide food for their family?

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

I'm not so sure on this guys.

It looks to me like public school student transfers and kindergarten students have no income guidelines attached right from the start. While current private schools kids have a needs based test in place in year 1 and year 2 and then in year 3 all private school kids, regardless of income, receive the ESA.

Gov. Reynolds signs Students First Act into law

Governor Reynolds signed HF 68 into law today amid hundreds of supporters in the Iowa State Capitol. The Students First Act makes state education funding...

governor.iowa.gov

 

[MitchLL]

You said "wealthy".

Those families were poor, probably skipping meals in order to save enough to provide their children with a good education.

The vouchers helped those poor families scrap by.

A liberal Democrat like you would begrudge a family having enough money to provide food for their family?

Are you familiar with tax law and how some rural farming operations can "control" income on tax filings?

Your narrative wants to push the idea that most students previously attending private schools were barely above the poverty line.

I suspect the real answer is somewhere in between both our arguments.

But the fact that private schools raised tuition this school year tells me they knew they could do it and still be selective on who they accepted.

 

[RicoSuave102954]

Are you familiar with tax law and how some rural farming operations can "control" income on tax filings?

Your narrative wants to push the idea that most students previously attending private schools were barely above the poverty line.

I suspect the real answer is somewhere in between both our arguments.

But the fact that private schools raised tuition this school year tells me they knew they could do it and still be selective on who they accepted.

I see you still do the "moonwalk", Michael Jackson would be proud.

 

[stout1]

I would like to see the income distribution of the families taking advantage of vouchers. 300% of poverty level for a family of five is north of $100k. By no means is that startlingly rich but it is $40k more than the median household income in Iowa.

I would also like to see if they were receiving financial assistance from the private school already and if that continued. As well as the tuition rates from pre-voucher to post-voucher time frames.

 

[MitchLL]

I see you still do the "moonwalk", Michael Jackson would be proud.

No one, at least I, is backtracking.

That 2/3 could afford it previously without a subsidy.

 

[joelbc1]

I think you would get both sides to cool off if private schools had to a) accept everyone who applied and b) were subject to the same review standards as public schools.

Without those two things, public schools “needing to improve” are essentially fighting with one arm tied behind their back. But that’s ultimately the goal of all this - create a self-fulfilling prophecy that public education is a failure.

If you don’t feed it, it will die!
“Welfare for the rich” can’t happen until you actually start giving money to these folks who don’t need it.

 

[RicoSuave102954]

No one, at least I, is backtracking.

That 2/3 could afford it previously without a subsidy.

At what cost to the family? Skipping meals? Wearing clothes from the shelters? Most of those families worked 2 or 3 jobs hoping to scrap together enough money to get their children out of the poorly run and failing public schools in Iowa.

You begrudge those people wanting what's best for their children?

 

[Scruddy]

Lol cry babies

 

[gohawks50]

I would like to see the income distribution of the families taking advantage of vouchers. 300% of poverty level for a family of five is north of $100k. By no means is that startlingly rich but it is $40k more than the median household income in Iowa.

I would also like to see if they were receiving financial assistance from the private school already and if that continued. As well as the tuition rates from pre-voucher to post-voucher time frames.

This is from an article written in July:

To date, 17,481 ESA applications have been approved. The remaining applications are pending additional review. The state has 30 days following the close of the application period to complete the review process and determine the eligibility status of all pending applications.

Of the applications approved at this time:

• Forty percent are for students planning to move from public to accredited private schools, while 60 percent are for students already attending accredited private schools whose families qualify based on income eligibility for the upcoming school year.
• The average net household income for ESA applicants planning to move from public to accredited private schools is $128,507 (more than 400 percent FPL); and $62,199 for private school applicants.
• Fourteen percent of applicants have household incomes less than 100 percent FPL (less than $30,000 for a family of four); 31 percent have incomes ranging from 101 percent to 200 percent FPL (above $30,000 and up to $60,000 for a family of four); 36 percent range from 201 percent to 300 percent FPL (above $60,000 and up to $90,000 for a family of four); the remaining 19 percent are above 300 percent FPL (above $90,000 for a family of four).

https://iowatorch.com/2023/07/06/ov...education-savings-accounts-in-its-first-year/

 

[MitchLL]

At what cost to the family? Skipping meals? Wearing clothes from the shelters? Most of those families worked 2 or 3 jobs hoping to scrap together enough money to get their children out of the poorly run and failing public schools in Iowa.

You begrudge those people wanting what's best for their children?

You're not going to like reading post #73.

Not exactly the food stamp level you want us to believe.

 

[Tiny Hands Trump]

Look, people should be able to spend "their" tax money however they want.. of course this applies to nothing else, just the pet project I want because reasons.

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

Public schools are in need of a honest self analysis. Until then, parents will continue to flee if the opportunity is available.

I've stated this before but it bears repeating, these private schools are going to start popping up all over rural Iowa. Add in the pending vouchers for home schoolers and it's only going to increase.

Public schools need to look in the mirror and stop blaming failures and poor outcomes on everyone but themselves.

 

[gohawks50]

Public schools are in need of a honest self analysis. Until then, parents will continue to flee if the opportunity is available.

I've stated this before but it bears repeating, these private schools are going to start popping up all over rural Iowa. Add in the pending vouchers for home schoolers and it's only going to increase.

Public schools need to look in the mirror and stop blaming failures and poor outcomes on everyone but themselves.

Public schools aren't failing. They are required to educate everyone. Until private schools are held to the same standards there is no way to compare results.

 

[Tom Paris]

Accountability for private schools boils down to convincing people to keep bringing their kids there instead of to the competition.

How does accountability for the public schools work?

Don’t post on this subject again.

 

[Tom Paris]

Exceeded by 25% with 33% new students. Sounds like it was more than expected. I think this thread was bitching about a positive aspect of these vouchers. You guys just like to bitch.

Good God.

 

[stout1]

The “failing” public school narrative has been disproven numerous times in states with a long history of private school vouchers. There are multiple studies that show the kids using vouchers perform no differently than they did before they had the voucher.

When you control for poverty, family make up, parent education achievement, etc (all the things private schools get to do) public schools perform on par or better than their private comparisons.

The idea that vouchers were about kids in failing schools or poor kids getting an opportunity to get a “better” education was always cover and a conduit to vouchers for all kids and a giveaway to the folks who didn’t need it.

I have the means to send my kids to any school I want locally except 2 really expensive private schools in Indy. However, there isn’t a private school in the area, state, region and likely nation that could provide the depth and breadth of quality education that our local public school has provided.