Cook

[jdv77]

If you accept the premise that a good recruiter is someone who can land highly sought after prospects, then Alford was a good recruiter. Guys like Reiner, Worley, Brunner, Horner, Pierce and Smith were highly sought after preps. Recker was highly sought as a transfer, Evans was highly sought as a juco transfer.

If you are going off the premise that a good recruiter is someone who can find talent, whether it is highly ranked or not, then McCaffery is a better recruiter. I think that he consistently finds players who were somewhat overlooked, but have a high ceiling.

The problem with Alford was not an inability to identify or land talent. He was very inconsistent in developing the talent that he recruited.

 

[CaptainBB]

In 2 years, Evans had 40 double doubles and led the nation in 2001 in double doubles.
In 4 years, Olaseni had 6 double doubles

LOL

 

[hawkit3113]

If you accept the premise that a good recruiter is someone who can land highly sought after prospects, then Alford was a good recruiter. Guys like Reiner, Worley, Brunner, Horner, Pierce and Smith were highly sought after preps. Recker was highly sought as a transfer, Evans was highly sought as a juco transfer.

If you are going off the premise that a good recruiter is someone who can find talent, whether it is highly ranked or not, then McCaffery is a better recruiter. I think that he consistently finds players who were somewhat overlooked, but have a high ceiling.

The problem with Alford was not an inability to identify or land talent. He was very inconsistent in developing the talent that he recruited.

Well said. That is the way I feel. Fran is getting guys that can play. They aren't huge star guys, but they are athletic and good.

 

[hawkit3113]

In 2 years, Evans had 40 double doubles and led the nation in 2001 in double doubles.
In 4 years, Olaseni had 6 double doubles

LOL

God some of you are so stupid. One was a starter, the other wasn't. Do you think that had anything to do with it, by chance? lol

 

[wondergrape]

And? What does that have to do with all his points coming off put backs and lay ups? So we missed 55% of the time, giving him a 50/50 shot at a put back? Ok? lol

You are tying to hard by hanging onto one phrase. You are so far in the forest, you cant see the trees. I will help you out and we will break it down nice and easy.


Did Reggie Evans have a good jump shot?


I will wait for you to process that one and answer before I move to fast for you.

Who gives a damn? Wilt Chamberlain didn't have a jump shot and he was one of the best players of all time.

 

[wondergrape]

God some of you are so stupid. One was a starter, the other wasn't. Do you think that had anything to do with it, by chance? lol

Just stop doing everything.

 

[hawkit3113]

Who gives a damn? Wilt Chamberlain didn't have a jump shot and he was one of the best players of all time.

Nice. So you wont comment on his jump shot. Or lack of one.

I would take Gabe over Evans. Deal with it. Why would I take him? Better free throw shooter, way better jump shot, and Gabe could run the floor better.

Things I don't think separate them that much, their defense. Both are very good defenders.

Reggie was by far the better rebounder and just a better playmaker. He would scrap longer and fight harder to get some turnovers and rebounds. But other than that, I don't see one or the other being that much better if they guarded each other.

 

[hawkit3113]

Just stop doing everything.

Truth hurts man.

 

[wondergrape]

Truth hurts man.

Watching you flail around like a monkey hurts man.

 

[The Sleeping Dog]

First, Wilt isn't one of the best players of all time, or even arguably the best player of all time. Wilt was tautologically the best player of all time and number 2 (probably Jordan) is not close.

Now, more to the point, Alford recruited many top 150 guys and a few top 100s. He just couldn't coach them very well.

Player for player only White has had a season comparable to Bruner in 2006. But don't forget Reiner lead the B1G in rebounding as a junior. Evans lead the B1G twice in rebounding.

 

[wondergrape]

First, Wilt isn't one of the best players of all time, or even arguably the best player of all time. Wilt was tautologically the best player of all time and number 2 (probably Jordan) is not close.

Now, more to the point, Alford recruited many top 150 guys and a few top 100s. He just couldn't coach them very well.

Player for player only White has had a season comparable to Bruner in 2006. But don't forget Reiner lead the B1G in rebounding as a junior. Evans lead the B1G twice in rebounding.

No.

 

[The Sleeping Dog]

Grape, are you too young to remember even an old Wilt or a Bill Russell partisan? Those are the only two categories of people that would dispute the rectitude of my observation.

If the former, and you're thinking "the league is more balanced" or "there are more good big men" arguments, imagine Shaq Daddy's body and a high jumper's athleticism.

 

[icu81222]

Truth hurts man.

Kilroy? Is that you?

 

[wondergrape]

Grape, are you too young to remember even an old Wilt or a Bill Russell partisan. Those are the only two categories of people that would dispute the rectitude of my observation.

I am certainly too young to have seen either. However, basketball suffers from reverse generational diminishing returns worse than any other sport. Chamberlain played in an era of under-sized, under-skilled players in an underdeveloped league. The fact that his relative accomplishments (ppg, mvps, championships, all-defensive teams, etc.) with the exception of rebounding pale in comparison to Jordan do not help your cause. Chamberlain was dominant for his time, but his time was lackluster and there have been other more complete players who have dominated just as much in more competitive eras.

Jordan for the win. Then Lebron. Then Magic. Wilt is in the discussion with Kobe, Bird and Russell for #4.

 

[TankHawk]

Kilroy? Is that you?

Did you see any stars (***) in his posts?

 

[2432Hawk]

I don't care what Reggie Evan averaged. He cant shoot or couldn't shoot. He was only an offensive threat on put backs. Also, Evan averaging 15 a game is a reflection of how poor the talent at Iowa was, under Alford.


And nice argument. Evans was a starter and Gabe came off the bench.

Which one owns a Big Ten Championship ring? Big Ten Tourney MVP? And a sweet NBA Pension?

 

[goodbyebobby]

God some of you are so stupid. One was a starter, the other wasn't. Do you think that had anything to do with it, by chance? lol

You're delusional.

 

[lenoxhawks]

Nice. So you wont comment on his jump shot. Or lack of one.

I would take Gabe over Evans. Deal with it. Why would I take him? Better free throw shooter, way better jump shot, and Gabe could run the floor better.

Things I don't think separate them that much, their defense. Both are very good defenders.

Reggie was by far the better rebounder and just a better playmaker. He would scrap longer and fight harder to get some turnovers and rebounds. But other than that, I don't see one or the other being that much better if they guarded each other.

I'm sorry but Gabe didn't start because he was lost on defense. He finally became better than average as a senior. He was totally lost on defense his first 3 years. Anyone who would take Gabe over Evans doesn't know anything about basketball. Gabe was a great 6th man and a great Hawkeye.

 

[DanL53]

I had to look up tautologically and I'm still confused.

 

[wondergrape]

I had to look up tautologically and I'm still confused.

Yeah, he phrased it oddly. He meant "indisputable" or "intrinsic". He's wrong, though.

 

[The Sleeping Dog]

Grape, the hubris of youth. The league was hardly undeveloped. There were fewer teams hence a much smaller percentage of the hangers on that beclowned the Stern era NBA. While athleticism has improved the corresponding diminution of skills (dribbling, picking, passing) has regressed substantially. Few guys even understand the tremendous efficacy of a very simple proposition: get the ball to the biggest strongest guy on the court as close to the basket as possible and something good will usually happen.

You think a weaker league explains not just his 3000 point seasons, but a 4000 point season? Eight or nine years in (and Wilt was 23 when he started, not 18) he had a 24 point 24 rebound season, and, as a center, led the league in assists. Who do you see doing that today? I'd say no one because no one's come close in the 48 seasons since. Wilt's rookie year he averaged and scored 25% more than anyone had previously done. Averaged more minutes one season than there are minutes in the regular season by playing more OT than sitting regulation another year.

As to the stats, which are themselves still unparalleled for individual performance in the most number of categories, Wilt started five years out of HS and played his first 6 or 7 seasons in 72 and 80 games season. I'm not old enough to remember, (not yet born) but Wilt was NBA ready out of HS from the news accounts and his obvious dominance in college and the early pro years.

And......in the ultimate statistical concession to team work, not just Wilt but the other Lakers said, at the time, that Wilt literally was only expected to come down on offense about half the time because Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Gail Goodridge, Harry Hairston and Jimmy McMillian didn't have any trouble scoring without him. As hard as it is to believe that was their actual and well known game plan. The other geezers need to remember those Laker teams, snake bitten in the finals all too often, but they were just a shooting machine, and one of the shooters wasn't a guy with a 30 point career scoring average.

On the other end, Walton, Kareem, Cowens, and even the great Nate Thurmond have all said that no one closed the post like Wilt. Watch video of especially a young Wilt. He played defense like a touch free guard but was a 7'1" high jumper so he could block shots from ridiculous distances while being so strong no one could back him down. Last season he led the NBA in rebounding for like the 10th time. Averaged around 18.6ish, second lowest of his career. Only one player since then had a better average, and that was in one season. That's in 42 seasons since with some pretty good rebounders passing through the NBA.

And then there's the chicks.

Wilt Chamberlain is a god.

 

[The Sleeping Dog]

C'mon boys, you know I meant it as an adverbial description of the logical concept that conclusions exist which conclusions cannot be satisfactorily negated through any other application of propositional logic. Not just indisputable but actually existing beyond the parameters of something for which a dispute can even be devised.

For example, my pomposity.

 

[DanL53]

C'mon boys, you know I meant it as an adverbial description of the logical concept that conclusions exist which conclusions cannot be satisfactorily negated through any other application of propositional logic. Not just indisputable but actually existing beyond the parameters of something for which a dispute can even be devised.

For example, my pomposity.

My head is going to explode!!! Adverbial, propositional, pomposity.....and all seasoned with highly advanced sentence structure? Dammit man! I'm an Iowan, not a linguist!

 

[Quintana]

dan, you jelly? those are prose right out of your book.

and gabe was good and i was damn happy to have him, one of my favorite hawks. favorite doesn't always mean best however, and i would have to take reggie every time, i think.

 

[DanL53]

dan, you jelly? those are prose right out of your book.

and gabe was good and i was damn happy to have him, one of my favorite hawks. favorite doesn't always mean best however, and i would have to take reggie every time, i think.

The Sleeping Dog has bigger word ammo. I just shoot more rounds.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

The Sleeping Dog has bigger word ammo. I just shoot more rounds.

Can't really compare players across generations, but Sleeping Dog is right about Wilt. Older generation players were more fundamentally sound, because the game had not loosened up to allow carrying the ball and style points on shots would not have been accepted by the coaches. Dr J helped to change that... Probably better to just name the top 30 or 40 and agree that they were GREAT players.

 

[wondergrape]

This place is weird.

 

[TampaHawkfan]

I think Fran has done a good job overall with talent evaluation and player development. Yes, there have been a few misses. Yes, I'd like to see him start to land more 4* or better recruits, but to this point, I can't realistically complain about what he's done at Iowa these first handful of seasons, especially considering how completely and utterly irrelevant this program was 5 years ago. It's been an upward trajectory - now, the question is whether Fran can maintain (or build) on what he's done so far. That remains to be seen.

There was an argument earlier about it taking 5-10 years, etc. to build a program. Interesting topic. I don't think it takes 10 years to get a program on its feet to where it's competitive again. Fran did it in 5. A little less, actually. But to really build a PROGRAM, could well take 10+ years before Iowa has a legit reputation as a good basketball program on a national level. It takes time to build your brand name.

The NCAA win over Davidson and making it to the first weekend is a nice start, but I honestly don't think that in itself is enough. Last year won't do any good if Iowa doesn't see the NCAA's again until 2018 or something. Iowa needs to become a near-annual fixture in the tournament (notice I said NEAR annual), and get to the Sweet 16 or beyond with some degree of regularity, before people will really start to take notice nationally. Maybe similar to a Wisconsin type of program.

Just my opinion.

 

[DanL53]

Well thought out post Tampa.

I have a hard time determining what ceiling to expect at Iowa. I don't mean to go negative but just facing the facts that we are in a state with a small population, in a basketball world that has become more and more about television market shares. And then thinking about the basketball Academy's and some aren't so pure and perfect. The AAU teams and same goes there. Just, stuff. Lot's of tough stuff out there.

I'd like to see the Iowa program reach a level where we are an NCAA invite worthy team, most of the time. Finishing in the top six of the Big Ten, most of the time. And sometimes having the kind of teams that can reasonably take a shot at the Big Ten Title or a Sweet Sixteen.

It sounds a little like the Dr. Tom years, and I'm pretty convinced McCaffery can do that and maybe a little bit better.

And you are right, the longer we can sustain good success the sooner very good success will present itself. We keep up this effort that the coaches put in...one day when we hit the lottery and the state of Iowa produces a rare few years of great talent? Then maybe we'll break through to some big things! I guess that's what I want, a program poised to take advantage of when the opportunity comes.

 

[goodbyebobby]

Grape, the hubris of youth. The league was hardly undeveloped. There were fewer teams hence a much smaller percentage of the hangers on that beclowned the Stern era NBA. While athleticism has improved the corresponding diminution of skills (dribbling, picking, passing) has regressed substantially. Few guys even understand the tremendous efficacy of a very simple proposition: get the ball to the biggest strongest guy on the court as close to the basket as possible and something good will usually happen.

You think a weaker league explains not just his 3000 point seasons, but a 4000 point season? Eight or nine years in (and Wilt was 23 when he started, not 18) he had a 24 point 24 rebound season, and, as a center, led the league in assists. Who do you see doing that today? I'd say no one because no one's come close in the 48 seasons since. Wilt's rookie year he averaged and scored 25% more than anyone had previously done. Averaged more minutes one season than there are minutes in the regular season by playing more OT than sitting regulation another year.

As to the stats, which are themselves still unparalleled for individual performance in the most number of categories, Wilt started five years out of HS and played his first 6 or 7 seasons in 72 and 80 games season. I'm not old enough to remember, (not yet born) but Wilt was NBA ready out of HS from the news accounts and his obvious dominance in college and the early pro years.

And......in the ultimate statistical concession to team work, not just Wilt but the other Lakers said, at the time, that Wilt literally was only expected to come down on offense about half the time because Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Gail Goodridge, Harry Hairston and Jimmy McMillian didn't have any trouble scoring without him. As hard as it is to believe that was their actual and well known game plan. The other geezers need to remember those Laker teams, snake bitten in the finals all too often, but they were just a shooting machine, and one of the shooters wasn't a guy with a 30 point career scoring average.

On the other end, Walton, Kareem, Cowens, and even the great Nate Thurmond have all said that no one closed the post like Wilt. Watch video of especially a young Wilt. He played defense like a touch free guard but was a 7'1" high jumper so he could block shots from ridiculous distances while being so strong no one could back him down. Last season he led the NBA in rebounding for like the 10th time. Averaged around 18.6ish, second lowest of his career. Only one player since then had a better average, and that was in one season. That's in 42 seasons since with some pretty good rebounders passing through the NBA.

And then there's the chicks.

Wilt Chamberlain is a god.

Amen and I'd take Reggie over Gabe any day of the week, and I love Gabe. Gabe isn't going to have a 15 yr. NBA run.

 

[StormHawk42]

Cook dropped to the 80's in the latest Rivals 150 and Moore shot up into the 50's. Coincidence that the one who may be an Iowa lean drops a ways and the one who is no longer considering Iowa shoots up?

 

[wondergrape]

Can't really compare players across generations, but Sleeping Dog is right about Wilt. Older generation players were more fundamentally sound, because the game had not loosened up to allow carrying the ball and style points on shots would not have been accepted by the coaches. Dr J helped to change that... Probably better to just name the top 30 or 40 and agree that they were GREAT players.

So, you actually disagree with Sleeping Dog. He said that Wilt Chamberlain was unquestionably the greatest player of all time - by a wide margin.

 

[wondergrape]

Cook dropped to the 80's in the latest Rivals 150 and Moore shot up into the 50's. Coincidence that the one who may be an Iowa lean drops a ways and the one who is no longer considering Iowa shoots up?

Yes.

 

[CanadaHawk]

Cook dropped to the 80's in the latest Rivals 150 and Moore shot up into the 50's. Coincidence that the one who may be an Iowa lean drops a ways and the one who is no longer considering Iowa shoots up?

Of course, it's always a coincidence when that happens.

 

[RefinedBean]

Cook dropped to the 80's in the latest Rivals 150 and Moore shot up into the 50's. Coincidence that the one who may be an Iowa lean drops a ways and the one who is no longer considering Iowa shoots up?

Moore showed more to compete with other PG's than Cook showed competing with other PF's. It happens. Anything in the top 150 would be a good get for us, and ratings aren't everything (is what I keep telling myself).

 

[CanadaHawk]

Moore showed more to compete with other PG's than Cook showed competing with other PF's. It happens. Anything in the top 150 would be a good get for us, and ratings aren't everything (is what I keep telling myself).

Don't know if I agree about Cook- especially how Fran plays. Cook really attacks the basket. He will need to learn how to use his bulk and athleticism better vs taller players. But I like his upside. Moore could do very well, especially if he grows a bit. I hope his 'handlers' will allow him some stability wherever he ends up.

 

[The Sleeping Dog]

I spent a lot of time in EPB boys.

RedHawk is, of course, agreeing with me, at least if he wants to be right. I generally agree that you cannot compare players across generations because it presupposes the superstars of the past wouldn't have had the benefit of all of today's training, development etc... The two exceptions are Jim Brown and Wilt Chamberlain. Wilt would be a 35 point 20 rebound guy in today's game with no problem cuz there's still no combination of players that could control his offensive game (remember, led the league in assists so the double/triple team is a loser strategy as well.

And yes, players committing to Iowa get downgraded. Gabe and Pat Ingram got downgraded within hours of signing with Iowa, and Gabe was significantly downgraded.

 

[freemanbrenner]

ESPN is much higher on Cook ranking him 53. Not sure I agree with Rivals ranking of Cook. He was terrific when I watched him at Peach Jam. Plays insanely hard, good touch, some skill. Pretty good passer too. Some Montrezl Harrell in Cook's game. He was the second best player on a loaded team that finished second at Peach Jam.

 

[hawkit3113]

Some of you wouldn't know a basketball if it was passed to you.

IMO, I would take Gabe over Evans based on skill set. You people are looking at his pro career. I am talking strictly college. Gabe brought more of an all around threat.

 

[sloehawk]

Some of you wouldn't know a basketball if it was passed to you.

IMO, I would take Gabe over Evans based on skill set. You people are looking at his pro career. I am talking strictly college. Gabe brought more of an all around threat.

You should quit while you're behind. Ultimately that's where you're going to end up anyway.