Does Fran struggle at developing talent?

[DenverTurtle]

I think it probably is. We've got about 30 years now where that's basically our ceiling. Dr. Tom, Alford, Lickliter, Fran all had success elsewhere and couldn't get us past that on anything more than a fluke run Dr. Tom's last year.

No. Tom Davis took us to the elite 8 in his 1st year and the fluke there was not making the final 4. And Davis did not have more success at either Boston College or Drake than he had at Iowa.
Alford never got past the second round at Iowa and I think only won an NCAA tourney 1st round game once at Iowa. His Tourney success has largely been at SW MoSt and New Mexico because he recruited power conference talent to mid major schools. Alford was never a very good coach but a great recruiter. He isn't elite coaching power conference teams because the other teams in those league have serious talent too.
Lickliter never even got us close to the NCAA tourney, in fact I don't know that he went above .500 in any of his 3 seasons coaching Iowa. His success at Butler, now that we have Captain Hindsight, was largely due to Brad Stevens.

So I call some serious shenanigans that all of these coaches had more success outside of Iowa. Other than Alford that's simply false and I explained Alford's situation.

 

[Hawkgaylover]

#Hawkeyechondriac

Think carefully.

4-14, 8-10, 9-9, 9-9,12-6,12-6

Yet in those six years McCaffery has:

Been a poor recruiter, just look at the rankings.
Can't game coach, just look at all the close losses.
Can't develop, just...believe it!

Doodoocaca.

We've got us a good coach and staff. Some should go root for Minnesota, or Nebraska, or Illinois. Go enjoy conversations about players pulling knives on bouncers, or doing a Godzilla act on a small French town. Or posting homemade porn. Or just losing lots of games!!!

Questioning development isn't fair criticism...it's a lot of things and none of them good at all.

I agree, but I cant believe the Hawks lost to an Illinois team in the tournament, as bad as they were with no seniors playing. Just seen some of Illinois recruits for 17 could be possible in the top 10 for recruiting class.

 

[Auger]

12-6 and 12-6 has nothing to do with any glasses. That's a fact unless you are too blind to see it.

I like how you keep saying 12-6 but can never bring yourself together to talk about Iowa going 4-5 the 2nd half of the B1G season and then losing to Illinois in the opening rd of the B1G tourney. When you look at things that way it take some shine off of 12-6 when you realize your team went from 8-1 to 12-6.

 

[Hawk40forever]

12-6 and 12-6 has nothing to do with any glasses. That's a fact unless you are too blind to see it.

The fact that you point to the 12-6 mark tells me you need to get some glasses. We started the Big Ten season 10-1. Let that sink in for a second....10-1. On top of the basketball world...SI Cover and everything. What do we do then?? We go 2-5 and piss away a much better seed in the NCAA tourney. Not to mention the Big Ten Tournament. Had we gone even 4-3 (wins over PSU and OSU are the most likely games that should have been won) instead of 2-5 we end up 14-4 with the #2 seed and a double bye in the Big Ten Tourney and who knows who we match up against. And we most certainly end up with a higher seed in the NCAA tourney and hence, a better chance at advancing to the second weekend.

You can't just take a number or numbers and act like that is all there is to it. You are settling for 12-6. I wanted and expected better. We should have been better but oh for those inadequacies you don't want to see. Can't ignore them.

 

[33hawkfan]

No. Tom Davis took us to the elite 8 in his 1st year and the fluke there was not making the final 4. And Davis did not have more success at either Boston College or Drake than he had at Iowa.
Alford never got passed the second round at Iowa and I think only won an NCAA tourney 1st round game once at Iowa. His Tourney success has largely been at SW MoSt and New Mexico because he recruited power conference talent to mid major schools. Alford was never a very good coach but a great recruiter. He isn't elite coaching power conference teams because the other teams in those league have serious talent too.
Lickliter never even got us close to the NCAA tourney, in fact I don't know that he went above .500 in any of his 3 seasons coaching Iowa. His success at Butler, now that we have Captain Hindsight, was largely due to Brad Stevens.

So I call some serious shenanigans that all of these coaches had more success outside of Iowa. Other than Alford that's simply false and I explained Alford's situation.

Davis got handled an absolutely loaded team and our record declined each of his first four years here. Once the team was Davis' players he did no better than the second round outside of his final year fluke. He went to an elite eight and sweet sixteen with BC. Alford obviously had much more success outside of Iowa, did better at every stop. Lickliter again, multiple sweet sixteens before coming to Iowa. Fran had Siena in the second round twice, same as here. So my statement is absolutely true, not sure how you think you proved other wise.

 

[33hawkfan]

I like how you keep saying 12-6 but can never bring yourself together to talk about Iowa going 4-5 the 2nd half of the B1G season and then losing to Illinois in the opening rd of the B1G tourney. When you look at things that way it take some shine off of 12-6 when you realize your team went from 8-1 to 12-6.

Sure but it still doesn't change the fact they went 12-6.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

12-6 and 12-6 the last two years. Becoming a staple of Fran's coaching!?!?

Personally I expect a slightly down year as we reload in 2016-17, but considering the other staple of upward trajectory I think I can understand if we struggle a bit one year as happens to all teams. But I worry it's going to kill the Hawkeyechondriacs. Then I won't get to watch them fall all over themselves saying, "I always liked Fran...just had..concerns."

Wow, Top 100, Top 25...that's two guys already committed in 2017 and 2018...Plus top 50 Cook in 2016. Wow.

No question Cook is a legit get for Fran. The others, we will have to see. After watching the Iowa state tournament and the Illinois state tournament, there is more that separates the states than a river. Iowa state tournament a natural and safe alternative to Ambien. Illinois state tournament a natural and safe alternative to caffeine. Much better product. Much better competition. Much better athletes. Yet we will continue to scratch our heads as to why we don't have anyone who can create their own shot. Jok and Uthoff somewhat give me reason for hope, but history is not on our side unless we are talking UNC or KU recruits.

I like Fran the coach, the person, the ambassador, the face of Iowa basketball. I just don't get why he gets so little out of his classes year after year.

 

[Hawk40forever]

Don't think anyone or not many are passing a condemning judgement on Fran yet including me. But as soon as someone posts about a flaw in the program and something that needs corrected something even the coaches would likely agree on the black and gold colored glasses fans as you call them come running out on the attack and go on a witch hunt turning the conversation and those that oppose them into Fran haters. You can ask a simple question like does Fran struggle at developing players and all they hear is Fran the devil hates all his players and not in a million years could he develope even a single basketball player.

Agreed. We should be able to have a normal, adult conversation about the good AND the bad of the state of the program. We are all arm chair head coaches at the end of the day anyway. The fact that people who call themselves Hawkeye fans will bash and insult someone who doesn't see the team as perfect or infallible is kind of ridiculous. I want to see the Hawks kick ass as much as the next guy or gal does but you can't just ignore the things that keep them from kicking said ass. They don't win championships every year for a reason. We should be able to talk about those reasons freely without threat of verbal abuse.

 

[DenverTurtle]

Davis got handled an absolutely loaded team and our record declined each of his first four years here. Once the team was Davis' players he did no better than the second round outside of his final year fluke. He went to an elite eight and sweet sixteen with BC. Alford obviously had much more success outside of Iowa, did better at every stop. Lickliter again, multiple sweet sixteens before coming to Iowa. Fran had Siena in the second round twice, same as here. So my statement is absolutely true, not sure how you think you proved other wise.

Pretty sure Lickliter went to just the 1 sweet 16 before Iowa, his last year at Butler, right before he came to Iowa and drove us off the side of the mountain.
Considering the elite talent that automatically comes to UCLA just because it's UCLA, I would not say that Alford has been more successful at UCLA than at Iowa other than creating a fan base that wants him fired, that's happened much faster for him at UCLA. Again, the only reason he had more success at his 2 mid majors was because he is a great recruiter and just an okay coach. If Iowa played in the MVC or Mountain West then Iowa would be a top 4 seed too when they go to the NCAA tourney, making a path to the sweet 16 that much easier. Alford is also the only coach to coach 2 different 3 seeds to being upset by a 14 in the NCAA tourney.

 

[cleotishaywood]

Did you feel more confident when Marble held the ball for the last shot or with Gesell?

 

[Hawk40forever]

Sure but it still doesn't change the fact they went 12-6.

Are you satisfied with 12-6 when 14-4 or maybe even 15-3 were clearly in our grasp?

 

[33hawkfan]

Pretty sure Lickliter went to just the 1 sweet 16 before Iowa, his last year at Butler, right before he came to Iowa and drove us off the side of the mountain.
Considering the elite talent that automatically comes to UCLA just because it's UCLA, I would not say that Alford has been more successful at UCLA than at Iowa other than creating a fan base that wants him fired, that's happened much faster for him at UCLA. Again, the only reason he had more success at his 2 mid majors was because he is a great recruiter and just an okay coach. If Iowa played in the MVC or Mountain West then Iowa would be a top 4 seed too when they go to the NCAA tourney, making a path to the sweet 16 that much easier. Alford is also the only coach to coach 2 different 3 seeds to being upset by a 14 in the NCAA tourney.

I'm not looking for an explanation as to why each coach had more success outside of Iowa, I'm just telling you they all did. You can stop trying to explain it away, it's not working out for you.

 

[33hawkfan]

Are you satisfied with 12-6 when 14-4 or maybe even 15-3 were clearly in our grasp?

I would take 12-6 year in and year out. That's been basically the ceiling of the program for the last 30 years.

 

[Auger]

Sure but it still doesn't change the fact they went 12-6.

12-6 is just a number. You can have a team like Iowa that was 10-1 at one point only to finish 12-6 and you can have a team that is 6-5 and finishes 12-6. Both teams finished with the same record but its likely both teams are not the same at that point. Its how you got to 12-6 that matters. Going 2-5 in your final 7 games isnt going to leave me smiling and Im sure it didnt leave Fran smiling.

 

[33hawkfan]

12-6 is just a number. You can have a team like Iowa that was 10-1 at one point only to finish 12-6 and you can have a team that is 6-5 and finishes 12-6. Both teams finished with the same record but its likely both teams are not the same at that point. Its how you got to 12-6 that matters. Going 2-5 in your final 7 games isnt going to leave me smiling and Im sure it didnt leave Fran smiling.

12-6 is your record, you don't get bonus points for winning games late. They all count the same.

 

[Hawk40forever]

Did you feel more confident when Marble held the ball for the last shot or with Gesell?

Marble hands down. Not only could he drive to the basket and finish (with size to not get blocked all the time like Gesell) but I had more confidence in his ability to raise up and hit a jumper if the lane was closed off. Gesell just dribbled the ball forever and then tried a mad scramble to get to the basket or got the ball to another player who didn't have a whole heck of a lot of time to get a good shot off.

 

[championhawk]

Was actually very positive all season on the wrestling board until the last day of the tourney when Iowa tanked and went from 2nd to 5th and I challenged a critical question on what Iowa needs to do to improve as it seems Iowa wrestling is falling further behind PSU and other programs are catching up to Iowa. And just like that I became a troll because of one post.

It sure appears like you are trolling in both instances. You are trying too hard.

 

[Hawk40forever]

12-6 is your record, you don't get bonus points for winning games late. They all count the same.

So you felt as comfortable and as confident with the Iowa team that finished 2-5 as you did with the Iowa team that started 10-1?

 

[David1979]

He struggles to get talent not develop it.

 

[33hawkfan]

So you felt as comfortable and as confident with the Iowa team that finished 2-5 as you did with the Iowa team that started 10-1?

Huh? How I feel about the team has no relation to anything that actually happens.

 

[Auger]

It sure appears like you are trolling in both instances. You are trying too hard.

Don't know how you get to that conclusion unless you're one of those fans that can't have a conversation about some of the areas Iowa teams need to improve on and instead draw a line in the sand.

 

[33hawkfan]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjmxOeB5-vLAhVL4mMKHXxmBiwQjRwIBw&url=/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjmxOeB5-vLAhVL4mMKHXxmBiwQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgiphy.com%2Fgifs%2Fcomic-adult-swim-this-is-fine-3o6UBpHgaXFDNAuttm&psig=AFQjCNHIfqRviPXxYWE4YjXwk57vR0ZyQQ&ust=1459543939084990&psig=AFQjCNHIfqRviPXxYWE4YjXwk57vR0ZyQQ&ust=1459543939084990

Might want to brush up on your internet skills there chief.

 

[Hawk40forever]

Huh? How I feel about the team has no relation to anything that actually happens.

Isn't that the whole reason why we are even here?? To talk about what we think and how we feel about what happened? Why are you here then?

Going back to your "you don't get bonus points for winning late" Are you serious? Do you not watch a single second of college basketball when they talk about how the Tourney Committee looks at how a team finishes the season?? Most of the time looking at the last ten games or so. The committee obviously FELT that the Iowa team that finished 2-6 with the loss to ILL in the Big Ten tourney was deserving of a 7 seed, instead of the Iowa team that was 10-1 that Lunardi predicted would get a #1 seed. Again, you can't just look at the whole, it's the sum of the parts.

 

[33hawkfan]

Isn't that the whole reason why we are even here?? To talk about what we think and how we feel about what happened? Why are you here then?

Going back to your "you don't get bonus points for winning late" Are you serious? Do you not watch a single second of college basketball when they talk about how the Tourney Committee looks at how a team finishes the season?? Most of the time looking at the last ten games or so. The committee obviously FELT that the Iowa team that finished 2-6 with the loss to ILL in the Big Ten tourney was deserving of a 7 seed, instead of the Iowa team that was 10-1 that Lunardi predicted would get a #1 seed. Again, you can't just look at the whole, it's the sum of the parts.

Let me throw this scenario out at you,

Team A: Starts 10-1, finishes the year 12-6 in conference
Team B: Starts 6-6, finishes the year 12-6 in conference

Which team do you think does better in the post-season?

 

[Auger]

12-6 is your record, you don't get bonus points for winning games late. They all count the same.

You don't understand college basketball if thats what you think.

 

[Auger]

Let me throw this scenario out at you,

Team A: Starts 10-1, finishes the year 12-6 in conference
Team B: Starts 6-6, finishes the year 12-6 in conference

Which team do you think does better in the post-season?

Which team gets a better seed?

 

[33hawkfan]

Which team gets a better seed?

You tell me.

 

[33hawkfan]

You don't understand college basketball if thats what you think.

Oklahoma went 6-5 down the stretch, Syracuse went 1-5 and lost in the first round of the conference tournament. Tell me more about how college basketball works LOL

 

[Auger]

Oklahoma went 6-5 down the stretch, Syracuse went 1-5 and lost in the first round of the conference tournament. Tell me more about how college basketball works LOL

Right and Syracuse got a 10 seed because of it.

 

[Auger]

Oklahoma went 6-5 down the stretch, Syracuse went 1-5 and lost in the first round of the conference tournament. Tell me more about how college basketball works LOL

Meanwhile California finishes 12-6 in the PAC but goes 8-1 in the final 9 games and gets a 4 seed but wiat they still finsihed with a 12-6 conference record and 12-6 is the same as Iowa's 12-6.

 

[33hawkfan]

Meanwhile California finishes 12-6 in the PAC but goes 8-1 in the final 9 games and gets a 4 seed but wiat they still finsihed with a 12-6 conference record and 12-6 is the same as Iowa's 12-6.

I'm sure that great run at the end of the year propelled them on to much tournament success, correct?

 

[milehighhawkeye24]

3 players drafted 3 years in a row and probably 4 in four years after next year......don't know if that ever happened in Iowa history and there were more rounds back in the day. Only 2 rounds so being drafted at all is pretty impressive, especially when you have a crap load of D1 schools and players coming from around the world. I can't think of a single one of them that didn't make marked improvements from year to year and you can include Jok in that discussion as well. Also impressive considering they all have completely different games and found success playing in the system

 

[Auger]

I'm sure that great run at the end of the year propelled them on to much tournament success, correct?

Since when are we talking about tournament success? The disagreement we are having is over how 12-6 can mean different things depending on how you got to 12-6 and how it deals with seeding or are you now ignoring that since you were proven wrong?

But I will humor you an run away from all that with you. What team would you rather be a 4 seed or a 7 seed. Would you rather play a 13 and then a 5 or would you rather play a 10 and then a 2?

 

[Auger]

3 players drafted 3 years in a row and probably 4 in four years after next year......don't know if that ever happened in Iowa history and there were more rounds back in the day. Only 2 rounds so being drafted at all is pretty impressive, especially when you have a crap load of D1 schools and players coming from around the world. I can't think of a single one of them that didn't make marked improvements from year to year and you can include Jok in that discussion as well. Also impressive considering they all have completely different games and found success playing in the system

Developing players is more then just developing 4-5 guys when you have been the coach for 6 years. You need to develope a starting lineup with some quality bench guys if you want to be able to compete in the 2nd Rd of the tournament let a lone fight off a 2nd half collapse during the season or win a game or two in your conference tournament.

 

[33hawkfan]

Since when are we talking about tournament success? The disagreement we are having is over how 12-6 can mean different things depending on how you got to 12-6 and how it deals with seeding or are you now ignoring that since you were proven wrong?

But I will humor you an run away from all that with you. What team would you rather be a 4 seed or a 7 seed. Would you rather play a 13 and then a 5 or would you rather play a 10 and then a 2?

You never answered my scenario below, you can change it to be just which team gets seeded higher if you want:

Team A: Starts 10-1, finishes 12-6
Team B: Starts 6-6, finishes 12-6

Who has a better postseason?

 

[Auger]

You never answered my scenario below, you can change it to be just which team gets seeded higher if you want:

Team A: Starts 10-1, finishes 12-6
Team B: Starts 6-6, finishes 12-6

Who has a better postseason?

run run run. Who knows who has a better postseason. That was never part of the arguement. Now your turn answer all the questions you've been running from does how you finish have anything to do with how youre seeded? Or does the committee just see 12-6 and say hey all 12-6 teams should be 6 seeds.

 

[33hawkfan]

run run run. Who knows who has a better postseason. That was never part of the arguement. Now your turn answer all the questions you've been running from does how you finish have anything to do with how youre seeded? Or does the committee just see 12-6 and say hey all 12-6 teams should be 6 seeds.

I see you can't answer a simple question since you know I've won this argument.

 

[Scott559]

I think if Fran can land or hopefully already has a couple of stellar guards that can shoot, Slash, and dish when they break down the defense he will suddenly become a much smarter coach. IMO it really is that simple, Guards/Wings that can cause havoc on the opponents defense seem to be a staple of most of the teams that do very well in the tourney. I understand all the debate about player development, In the end though you are still limited in what you can do by what you have available. Our guards did everything they could, Not bashing them at all, But they were far from a triple threat to opposing defenses.
I like what we have coming into the front court, If nothing else we have guys that can finish at the rim, IMO if Iowa is going to really take the next step in regard to advancing in March, It will be much better guard play that will dictate it.

 

[doughudd]

Don't get sucked into Auger's trolling. He tried the same stuff on the wrestling board but most didn't take the bait so he moved back to the basketball forum.

Thanks for the heads up. Some life people have. F em.

 

[DanL53]

I like how you keep saying 12-6 but can never bring yourself together to talk about Iowa going 4-5 the 2nd half of the B1G season and then losing to Illinois in the opening rd of the B1G tourney. When you look at things that way it take some shine off of 12-6 when you realize your team went from 8-1 to 12-6.

Are you satisfied with 12-6 when 14-4 or maybe even 15-3 were clearly in our grasp?

The fact that you point to the 12-6 mark tells me you need to get some glasses. We started the Big Ten season 10-1. Let that sink in for a second....10-1. On top of the basketball world...SI Cover and everything. What do we do then?? We go 2-5 and piss away a much better seed in the NCAA tourney. Not to mention the Big Ten Tournament. Had we gone even 4-3 (wins over PSU and OSU are the most likely games that should have been won) instead of 2-5 we end up 14-4 with the #2 seed and a double bye in the Big Ten Tourney and who knows who we match up against. And we most certainly end up with a higher seed in the NCAA tourney and hence, a better chance at advancing to the second weekend.

You can't just take a number or numbers and act like that is all there is to it. You are settling for 12-6. I wanted and expected better. We should have been better but oh for those inadequacies you don't want to see. Can't ignore them.

Listen to these! "Takes some shine off the 12-6", "Are you satisfied with 12-6", "You are settling for 12-6".

Last time we enjoyed this kind of success in back to back years? To be lenient, 95/96 and 96/97. Nineteen years ago and three coaches ago!!!

Now the switch gears is, What about the poor finish? Yeah!?!? So how does that fit in with the lack of development theory? How did lack of development lead to being in the top 10 in the country for weeks before we fell to Earth?

12-6 was no illusion and in fact I did talk about 12-6 as it relates to Iowa, Wisconsin and even Michigan State! The truth is, the Hawkeyesuccessphobics can't bring themselves to accept that things are getting better. They've got to present stupid (yes, in my opinion stupid) theories about lack of development among the players when the opposite is staring them right in the face!

I laugh, LAUGH at the notion that we've got serious problems. Is everything peachy? Not always. And reasonable criticism is one thing...but this thread is just complete HawkeyeHyperAnxiety, to the point of looking to tear down intentionally, imo. No wonder the word Troll came up.