Electric car owners and enthusiasts, prepare yourself for the problem in your future.

[Urohawk]

Engines don’t typically fail at 60,000 miles unless they were severely neglected. Engines don’t cost $14,000 to replace. I looked online and found that Tesla batteries can cost as much as $20-22k to replace.

I’ve driven well over a million miles and have never once had to replace an engine. I had a 1999 Honda Civic that went 377,000 miles before the engine block cracked and I sold it to a junkyard for $400. I had a 2008 Chevy Impala that went 403,000 miles before a deer totaled the car. I’m currently driving a 2012 Sienna with 245,000 miles and the engine is just as strong as the day I drove it home from the dealership.

And that’s just my 3 most recent vehicles. I’ve owned multiple cars that went well over 100k miles and I’ve never had to replace an engine.

So while replacing a battery in an EV might be more straightforward than replacing an ICE, it sounds like the frequency and expense (for now) vastly exceeds engine replacement.

Your post is complete BS. I had a 10 year old mini cooper with 59K on it for mileage when the engine blew. It had a water pump, fuel pump, timing chain x 2 replaced. Some cars are crappy.

This year of Ford Focus electric has a known problem of developing a coolant leak which kills the battery.

 

[Urohawk]

Telsas run just fine.

This Tesla Model S P85 Just Surpassed 1,500,000 Kilometers

On January 6, 2022, a Tesla Model S P85 (the oldest performance version) reached an impressive mileage milestone of 1,500,000 km (932,256 miles).

insideevs.com

A Tesla Has Gone 420,000 Miles and Counting

These high mileage Teslas debunk the fear of short battery life.

www.thedrive.com

Here’s How a Tesla Model S Holds Up After 424,000 Miles

Seventeen trips around the equator and it's still kicking—but not without its fair share of repairs.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Tenacious E]

Agreed, but Musk is too much of a wild card.
He is setting the hook, if you ask me.

Go on

 

[Bank of Hawk]

Quit playing with your dingie is the message Elon needs today.

 

[Tenacious E]

Quit playing with your dingie is the message Elon needs today.

His providing of starlink to save Ukraine has built up quite a bit of goodwill/grace for me.

 

[Joes Place]

The fact that they've discovered that the plasma isn't as limited by density as they originally thought allows for more power per cycle.

What's particularly exciting about fusion is that once we get down "conventional" nuclear fusion pathways ... all of which are still used to lend thermal energy to water in order to turn a turbine. The problem here is that you're stuck being rate-limited by the second law of thermodynamics because you're using the energy released by fusion to power a heat engine - in this context, you're only recovering something like 15 to 20% of the energy released (IIRC). Some higher energy pathways are known to eject charged particles (as a primary energy carrier). If you can tap into those ... via magnetic induction you can step up or step down the voltages as needed and put it directly to the grid (with very little loss).

....WOOF!!!!

👀

 

[TJ8869]

Your post is complete BS. I had a 10 year old mini cooper with 59K on it for mileage when the engine blew. It had a water pump, fuel pump, timing chain x 2 replaced. Some cars are crappy.

The fact that you owned a piece of shit Mini Cooper doesn’t mean my post is “complete bs.” ICEs generally last much longer than 60K miles and cost nowhere near as much as $14K to replace.

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

Mini Coopers are crap, always have been. I've never had to replace an engine in any Ford, Chevy, Toyota or Nissan I ever owned. Even all my construction trucks included...

 

[Urohawk]

The fact that you owned a piece of shit Mini Cooper doesn’t mean my post is “complete bs.” ICEs generally last much longer than 60K miles and cost nowhere near as much as $14K to replace.

Just the idea that proper maintenance saves all ICE engines until 200+ miles. I would say your success is atypical. There are probably plenty of highway miles on your cars. Mine are all city driving. My mazda six had 5K worth of tranny problems at 90K. My old honda civic made it to 204,000 miles before the tranny went bad. Some cars are better built. I'm a stickler for maintenance and that didn't save me. The point being this is a known problem with this electric ford focus, not some problem with electric cars in general. It's also worth noting that Ford doesn't manufacture this battery anymore.

 

[TJ8869]

Mini Coopers are crap, always have been. I've never had to replace an engine in any Ford, Chevy, Toyota or Nissan I ever owned. Even all my construction trucks included...

Exactly. There was a time, 40 or 50 years ago, when 100K miles was considered the death knell for ICEs. But with advances in machining tolerances and improvements in oil formulations, ICEs can easily last half a million miles if you’re even moderately diligent about changing oil and engine coolant. It’s not unusual for the frame to rust out before the engine fails.

 

[Joes Place]

The fact that you owned a piece of shit Mini Cooper doesn’t mean my post is “complete bs.” ICEs generally last much longer than 60K miles and cost nowhere near as much as $14K to replace.

If you're driving them for 150k-200k miles, you'll EASILY spend $14k or more on the maintenance & engine repairs.

 

[Joes Place]

Exactly. There was a time, 40 or 50 years ago, when 100K miles was considered the death knell for ICEs. But with advances in machining tolerances and improvements in oil formulations, ICEs can easily last half a million miles if you’re even moderately diligent about changing oil and engine coolant. It’s not unusual for the frame to rust out before the engine fails.

Not true

250k-300k is more typical for an engine
That is WITH a lot of tuneups and repairs over a ~10 yr timespan, well in excess of $14k

 

[TJ8869]

Just the idea that proper maintenance saves all ICE engines until 200+ miles.

The basic problem with your response is that’s not what I said. I said engines typically don’t fail at 60K miles.
I didn’t say that proper maintenance will make all ICEs last 200K miles. Some engines are just shit. Kias, for example, are notorious for rod knock.

But if you’re driving a GM or a Honda or a Toyota and you do the requisite maintenance, your engine will likely last more than 200K miles and it would be highly unusual for it to fail at 60K.

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

Not true

250k-300k is more typical for an engine
That is WITH a lot of tuneups and repairs over a ~10 yr timespan, well in excess of $14k

Tune ups? Plugs, points and condenser like on my 1950 Ford? LOL. If anyone spends 14K on a car repairs in 10 years, they're an idiot...maybe those are the folks that need to buy the extended warranty...

 

[Urohawk]

The basic problem with your response is that’s not what I said. I said engines typically don’t fail at 60K miles.
I didn’t say that proper maintenance will make all ICEs last 200K miles. Some engines are just shit. Kias, for example, are notorious for rod knock.

But if you’re driving a GM or a Honda or a Toyota and you do the requisite maintenance, your engine will likely last more than 200K miles and it would be highly unusual for it to fail at 60K.

Yes, but I'm also saying most electric batteries won't drop at 60K either. It's a known crappy, electric car.

 

[TJ8869]

If you're driving them for 150k-200k miles, you'll EASILY spend $14k or more on the maintenance & engine repairs.

I’m gonna need to see your math on that claim. On my Honda that lasted 377K and my Chevy that lasted 403K I never had to spend a dime on engine maintenance and repairs other than oil changes, spark plugs, 2 or 3 water pumps, and oxygen sensor, and a couple of pulleys. All of that added up to somewhere less than $5000 over a period of 22 years and 780,000 miles.

 

[TJ8869]

Yes, but I'm also saying most electric batteries won't drop at 60K either. It's a known crappy, electric car.

I agree that 60K miles is probably atypical for an EV battery, but lifespan is only half of the equation. From what I’ve seen, EV batteries are significantly more expensive to replace than a complete internal combustion engine.

 

[On Iowa]

I’m gonna need to see your math on that claim. On my Honda that lasted 377K and my Chevy that lasted 403K I never had to spend a dime on engine maintenance and repairs other than oil changes, spark plugs, 2 or 3 water pumps, and oxygen sensor, and a couple of pulleys. All of that added up to somewhere less than $5000 over a period of 22 years and 780,000 miles.

780,000/5000=156 oil changes. Average of $30 each, which seems pretty cheap now, = $4680. That doesn't include any of the rest.

 

[JupiterHawk]

Telsas run just fine.

This Tesla Model S P85 Just Surpassed 1,500,000 Kilometers

On January 6, 2022, a Tesla Model S P85 (the oldest performance version) reached an impressive mileage milestone of 1,500,000 km (932,256 miles).

insideevs.com

A Tesla Has Gone 420,000 Miles and Counting

These high mileage Teslas debunk the fear of short battery life.

www.thedrive.com

Here’s How a Tesla Model S Holds Up After 424,000 Miles

Seventeen trips around the equator and it's still kicking—but not without its fair share of repairs.

www.thedrive.com

 

[TJ8869]

780,000/5000=156 oil changes. Average of $30 each, which seems pretty cheap now, = $4680. That doesn't include any of the rest.

I change my oil every 7-10K miles, so I used 100 oil changes for my calculations at $35 each. That’s $3500 and the rest of the parts probably added up to about $1500. That’s well below the $14,000 JP claimed one would need to spend on maintenance.

And again, that’s over a period of 22 years and 780,000 miles. How many EV batteries would need to be replaced in a period of 22 years and 780,000 miles?

 

[Joes Place]

I never had to spend a dime on engine maintenance and repairs other than oil changes, spark plugs, 2 or 3 water pumps, and oxygen sensor, and a couple of pulleys. All of that added up to somewhere less than $5000

Baloney

 

[TJ8869]

Baloney

Okay, dipshit. You tell me how much I spent on engine maintenance and repairs.

 

[Joes Place]

780,000/5000=156 oil changes. Average of $30 each, which seems pretty cheap now, = $4680. That doesn't include any of the rest.

$30 per oil change is nonsense for most long-running engines, that use or recommend synthetic oils. Those run $65 to $125 at your local Jiffy Lube.

Fuel and air filters alone on regular changes would be at least $20-30
Also have transmission fluid changes
Radiator fluid flushes or replacement
Ignition coils and fuel injectors that generally require replacement short of 200k miles

ICE engines are maintenance-heavy and expensive over time.
$500/yr in engine maintenance is fairly inexpensive, which is already $5k

Don't forget brake jobs, which are much less frequent on EVs because regenerative braking saves the pads and rotors, where you'd probably get at least 2x the life out of them.

And lets not compare today's econo-boxes to EVs that accelerate like sports cars. You want to compare maintenance on a Tesla, compare it to a BMW, Audi or high end Lexus/Infiniti sports car.

 

[Joes Place]

Okay, dipshit. You tell me how much I spent on engine maintenance and repairs.

More than $30 per change.
You never had transmission fluid changes? timing belts replaced? injectors?
You spent way more than you think because it's spread out over time and you forget about it.

AGAIN: Comparing performance EVs to econoboxes isn't apples-apples.

Rank	Brand	10 Year Maintenance Cost
1	Tesla	$5,867
2	Lexus	$7,786
3	Acura	$10,730
4	INFINITI	$11,830
5	Lincoln	$12,099
6	Audi	$13,222
7	Cadillac	$13,406
8	Volvo	$13,513
9	Mercedes-Benz	$15,986
10	Jaguar	$17,636
11	Land Rover	$18,569
12	BMW	$19,312
13	Porsche	$22,075

Ranking the Least Expensive Luxury Cars to Maintain

See which Luxury Cars and Brands cost the least for maintainenance and repairs after 5 and 10 years.

caredge.com

 

[Joes Place]

Now....let's consider your "fuel costs" for 10 years, or 200,000 miles.

30 mpg at 200k miles is 6,666 gallons of gas. Let's say you paid a "cheap" $2/gallon

$13k in gas

Equivalent EV cost is about $0.20 per gallon

$1300

So, you'll pay >$10,000 more in energy costs JUST to run your ICE vehicle for 200k miles. If gas is $4/gallon, then your fuel costs are $26,000 vs $1300

 

[TJ8869]

$30 per oil change is nonsense for most long-running engines, that use or recommend synthetic oils. Those run $65 to $125 at your local Jiffy Lube.

Fuel and air filters alone on regular changes would be at least $20-30
Also have transmission fluid changes
Radiator fluid flushes or replacement
Ignition coils and fuel injectors that generally require replacement short of 200k miles

I spend an average of $35 each oil change and do it myself. I don’t trust the idiots at Jiffy Lube. $25 for a 5-quart container of Mobil 1 full synthetic oil and $10 for a filter.

Never changed the trans fluid on the Honda. Changed it once on the Chevy. That was maybe $50. Never replaced ignition coils or fuel injectors.

Not every ICE needs as much maintenance as your over-engineered and under-built BMWs.

 

[TJ8869]

More than $30 per change.
You never had transmission fluid changes? timing belts replaced? injectors?
You spent way more than you think because it's spread out over time and you forget about it.

AGAIN: Comparing performance EVs to econoboxes isn't apples-apples.

Rank	Brand	10 Year Maintenance Cost
1	Tesla	$5,867
2	Lexus	$7,786
3	Acura	$10,730
4	INFINITI	$11,830
5	Lincoln	$12,099
6	Audi	$13,222
7	Cadillac	$13,406
8	Volvo	$13,513
9	Mercedes-Benz	$15,986
10	Jaguar	$17,636
11	Land Rover	$18,569
12	BMW	$19,312
13	Porsche	$22,075

Ranking the Least Expensive Luxury Cars to Maintain

See which Luxury Cars and Brands cost the least for maintainenance and repairs after 5 and 10 years.

caredge.com

Now that you mention it, I did have the timing belt and water pump replaced on the Honda three times. That was probably about $500 each time, so add another $1500 and we’re up to about $6500. Still less than half of what you insist that I spent.

 

[TJ8869]

Now....let's consider your "fuel costs" for 10 years, or 200,000 miles.

30 mpg at 200k miles is 6,666 gallons of gas. Let's say you paid a "cheap" $2/gallon

$13k in gas

Equivalent EV cost is about $0.20 per gallon

$1300

So, you'll pay >$10,000 more in energy costs JUST to run your ICE vehicle for 200k miles. If gas is $4/gallon, then your fuel costs are $26,000 vs $1300

Lol. JP is getting his ass kicked mercilessly on the subject at hand, so it’s time for him to change the subject.

The issue was whether changing an EV battery is “no different” than changing an ICE.

 

[desihawk]

More than $30 per change.
You never had transmission fluid changes? timing belts replaced? injectors?
You spent way more than you think because it's spread out over time and you forget about it.

AGAIN: Comparing performance EVs to econoboxes isn't apples-apples.

Rank	Brand	10 Year Maintenance Cost
1	Tesla	$5,867
2	Lexus	$7,786
3	Acura	$10,730
4	INFINITI	$11,830
5	Lincoln	$12,099
6	Audi	$13,222
7	Cadillac	$13,406
8	Volvo	$13,513
9	Mercedes-Benz	$15,986
10	Jaguar	$17,636
11	Land Rover	$18,569
12	BMW	$19,312
13	Porsche	$22,075

Ranking the Least Expensive Luxury Cars to Maintain

See which Luxury Cars and Brands cost the least for maintainenance and repairs after 5 and 10 years.

caredge.com

i have no interest in being contrarian in this thread, in fact i'm consdering a tesla for my next. but i've owned multiple lexii a couple for a decade and i can tell you for sure that i didn't spend anywhere close to 7.7k. the number is a gross exaggeration imo. also i exclusively serviced the vehicles at the dealer who isn't cheap.

 

[JupiterHawk]

I spend an average of $35 each oil change and do it myself. I don’t trust the idiots at Jiffy Lube. $25 for a 5-quart container of Mobil 1 full synthetic oil and $10 for a filter.

Never changed the trans fluid on the Honda. Changed it once on the Chevy. That was maybe $50. Never replaced ignition coils or fuel injectors.

Not every ICE needs as much maintenance as your over-engineered and under-built BMWs.

I change my own oil as well. Changed from Mobil 1 to Kirkland 5 oil for even better savings. The oil change places use sludge. One time I asked for synthetic and noticed that the seals were broken on the bottles they had used.

A lot of transmissions are sealed now and it's difficult to change the fluid. Draining is no problem but re-adding is the hard part. Plus you need to do it three times within a period to make sure there is a full flush. Not sure if I would trust the dealer vacuum method.

 

[Joes Place]

I spend an average of $35 each oil change and do it myself.

While I completely agree that DIY is easy and saves you money, Time is Money, so it's not necessarily "free" that way.

And most people do not/cannot do this.

 

[Joes Place]

Lol. JP is getting his ass kicked mercilessly on the subject at hand

I've provided sourcing for my statements.

You'll pay WAY more to fuel an ICE vehicle for 200k miles than an EV.
Period.

 

[Joes Place]

Now that you mention it, I did have the timing belt and water pump replaced on the Honda three times. That was probably about $500 each time, so add another $1500 and we’re up to about $6500. Still less than half of what you insist that I spent.

Come to think of it, you probably forgot about a lot more expenses, too.
Weird how those "just popped up" on you...

 

[Joes Place]

The issue was whether changing an EV battery is “no different” than changing an ICE.

"Changing" an ICE?
You mean putting in a new engine and transmission?

EV battery is still cheaper, as many in this thread have shown you already.

 

[Joes Place]

i have no interest in being contrarian in this thread, in fact i'm consdering a tesla for my next. but i've owned multiple lexii a couple for a decade and i can tell you for sure that i didn't spend anywhere close to 7.7k

Oh, I'll bet you did.

Just like TJ, you "forget" all those expenses over the years.

 

[TJ8869]

Come to think of it, you probably forgot about a lot more expenses, too.
Weird how those "just popped up" on you...

Yep, just $7500 of remembering to go. And that's on two vehicles over a 22 year period, driving 780K miles. Just to get to the amount that you said would be required to maintain one vehicle driving about one-fourth of the miles.

You said I would "EASILY" spend $14K or more on maintenance and repairs to drive 150K-200K miles. Based on that claim, I should have spent between $54,600 and $72,800 on maintenance and repairs to go 780,000 miles.

So tell me more about these tens of thousands of dollars that I forgot I spent.

 

[TJ8869]

I've provided sourcing for my statements.

You'll pay WAY more to fuel an ICE vehicle for 200k miles than an EV.
Period.

If fueling an ICE vehicle was the subject at hand then that would be a good point. Unfortunately for you, that is not what we're talking about here. Man, that sucks for you.

 

[billanole]

If fueling an ICE vehicle was the subject at hand then that would be a good point. Unfortunately for you, that is not what we're talking about here. Man, that sucks for you.

TJ, go beyond the current “debate”.
Will you go electric soon, if you need to replace a ride?

Our next purchase will likely be EV. The tide is rising. ICE costs will remain stubbornly high enough to suggest it is time.
Besides, in the big picture, the weather &#@‘l$ sucks and is going to get worse.
I don’t want to tell my kids that we did nothing…
Do you?

 

[TJ8869]

TJ, go beyond the current “debate”.
Will you go electric soon, if you need to replace a ride?

Our next purchase will likely be EV. The tide is rising. ICE costs will remain stubbornly high enough to suggest it is time.
Besides, the weather &#@‘l$ sucks and is going to get worse.

I will certainly consider an EV the next time I buy a car. I'm not opposed to them. Depending on your driving needs, an EV certainly can be the best option.

My participation in this debate started with correcting someone who said that replacing an EV battery is no different than replacing an engine in an ICE vehicle. And then of course JP got involved and tried to change the parameters multiple times as he always does.

 

[Joes Place]

Yep, just $7500 of remembering to go.

And you never replaced any serpentine belts on your vehicles, despite 50k-80k being typical.

Water pumps, radiators.

Timing belts and 02 sensors, which are scheduled maintenance at 80k-100k max

Battery, which usually gets replaced at least every 5 yrs

Never any alternator go out (also unusual for them to run much over 5-7 years w/o replacement)

Never swapped out oil or fuel filters, either.

Wonder how your brakes worked w/o new pads or rotors over 10+ years.

You have "magic" cars, bro.