Call me crazy, but the last time these two wrestled NATO was counting the lights. NATO is ranked above 2X finalist Clark as well. How 3rd place at 125 bumps 2nd at 133 is a mystery to me.
Flos new P4P rankings NATO #7 Gillman #9
- Thread starter so cal hawkfan
- Start date
They go by overall body of work for p4p rankings. In his career, Gilman has more losses (and more headscratching losses). Tomasello also has 2 conference titles and a national championship, and Gilman has none of either.
Very similar reasoning for Tomasello over Clark.
Now, I would absolutely pick both Gilman and Clark over Tomasello next time they wrestle. But I can see the justification for the rankings.
Very similar reasoning for Tomasello over Clark.
Now, I would absolutely pick both Gilman and Clark over Tomasello next time they wrestle. But I can see the justification for the rankings.
My guess would be that NATO has more NCAA and B1G titles than both Clark and Gilman combined. This will mean nothing after Clark and Gilman run the tables this year and go out as kings of the mountain.
With that rationale despite putting 70 on Oregon this weekend, Washington should be ranked below them due to Oregons PAC 12 championships of the past. So NATO gets credit for wins over Nico who has graduated. Do Gillman and Clark get credit for their wins over Delgado?
These rankings are so hard to do and it's basically impossible to remove subjectivity(I used it correctly, I promise). To me, it's Retherford ALL DAY! He is, by far, the most complete Folkstyle wrestler in DI. He is top5, and can be argued as the best, in all 3 positions. What other DI guy can legitimately be argued that way? Plus, P4P isn't solely about how easily you would win your weight. It is about how you would match up style wise with EVERYONE when all things are equal.
I would have the top 10 this way:
1.)Retherford-Clearly the best when combining all 3 positions
2.)Cox-Can't be taken down and can't be ridden.
3.)IMar-Revitalized up a weight, expect him to wreck people.
4.)Nolf-His style fits Folkstyle perfectly. I truly believe he will be the Trivia question answer 20 years from now, being the 1 guy that stopped Martinez from joining Sanderson as a 4x undefeated Champ.
5.)Snyder-I know many will blast me for this, but there is more to Folkstyle than takedowns. I could see all 4 listed above, neutralizing his takedown ability and beating him. Now, if he focused on being the best Folkstyler, he may very well be now.
6.)Dean-Crazy that a 2Xer with a win over Ruth is this far down the list!
There is a considerable drop from here:
7.)Heil-He does have a propensity for close matches, but I think he is the most fundamentally sound of the rest.
8.)Gilman-If he could just figure out how to take someone down when they do the splits.......
9.)Tomasello-The jury is out on how he will do up at 133, but he was very close to being a 2Xer at 125
10.)Nickal-Should have been a Champ. Will learn when to open up, but is now at a weight with a guy clearly above him.
I would have Clark and Meredith just outside the Top10. I would put Clark higher if he wrestled all season like he does in March!
I would have the top 10 this way:
1.)Retherford-Clearly the best when combining all 3 positions
2.)Cox-Can't be taken down and can't be ridden.
3.)IMar-Revitalized up a weight, expect him to wreck people.
4.)Nolf-His style fits Folkstyle perfectly. I truly believe he will be the Trivia question answer 20 years from now, being the 1 guy that stopped Martinez from joining Sanderson as a 4x undefeated Champ.
5.)Snyder-I know many will blast me for this, but there is more to Folkstyle than takedowns. I could see all 4 listed above, neutralizing his takedown ability and beating him. Now, if he focused on being the best Folkstyler, he may very well be now.
6.)Dean-Crazy that a 2Xer with a win over Ruth is this far down the list!
There is a considerable drop from here:
7.)Heil-He does have a propensity for close matches, but I think he is the most fundamentally sound of the rest.
8.)Gilman-If he could just figure out how to take someone down when they do the splits.......
9.)Tomasello-The jury is out on how he will do up at 133, but he was very close to being a 2Xer at 125
10.)Nickal-Should have been a Champ. Will learn when to open up, but is now at a weight with a guy clearly above him.
I would have Clark and Meredith just outside the Top10. I would put Clark higher if he wrestled all season like he does in March!
Good argument here with stuff to back up your claims. The part about Gilman taking down a guy who can do the splits would be funny if it wasn't so true.These rankings are so hard to do and it's basically impossible to remove subjectivity(I used it correctly, I promise). To me, it's Retherford ALL DAY! He is, by far, the most complete Folkstyle wrestler in DI. He is top5, and can be argued as the best, in all 3 positions. What other DI guy can legitimately be argued that way? Plus, P4P isn't solely about how easily you would win your weight. It is about how you would match up style wise with EVERYONE when all things are equal.
I would have the top 10 this way:
1.)Retherford-Clearly the best when combining all 3 positions
2.)Cox-Can't be taken down and can't be ridden.
3.)IMar-Revitalized up a weight, expect him to wreck people.
4.)Nolf-His style fits Folkstyle perfectly. I truly believe he will be the Trivia question answer 20 years from now, being the 1 guy that stopped Martinez from joining Sanderson as a 4x undefeated Champ.
5.)Snyder-I know many will blast me for this, but there is more to Folkstyle than takedowns. I could see all 4 listed above, neutralizing his takedown ability and beating him. Now, if he focused on being the best Folkstyler, he may very well be now.
6.)Dean-Crazy that a 2Xer with a win over Ruth is this far down the list!
There is a considerable drop from here:
7.)Heil-He does have a propensity for close matches, but I think he is the most fundamentally sound of the rest.
8.)Gilman-If he could just figure out how to take someone down when they do the splits.......
9.)Tomasello-The jury is out on how he will do up at 133, but he was very close to being a 2Xer at 125
10.)Nickal-Should have been a Champ. Will learn when to open up, but is now at a weight with a guy clearly above him.
I would have Clark and Meredith just outside the Top10. I would put Clark higher if he wrestled all season like he does in March!
But, you lost me at the end with Meredith just outside your top ten. Don't understand that one.
Gilman is 6-1 over NATO to include freestyle. Gilman's only loss was at 2015 B1G.
When Nato switched into track shoes after a 1st period takedown
I just have a feeling about Meredith. The guy impressed me a ton last season. I think he will surprise a lot of people. He has the perfect coach to fit his style and gained the confidence needed as a True Sophomore.
I love how guys look for the one thing they disagree with. I wasn't knocking Sorenson. I think he is right there. I just think Meredith reminds me of Port the 1st year he took 2nd against Maple. He knocked off a young H. Stieber similar to McKenna for Meredth and then gave Maple a match that was much closer than expected. With that confidence he went on to be pretty damn good.
I wasn't knocking Sorenson at all. I always look for the surprise that won't go away and Meredith(to me anyways) looks to be that guy so far.
It's subjective and CP, thinks Nato is better. CP tends to cheer against the Iowa guys or is that just me... Was it him or someone on his staff that had us finishing like 7th or something at NCAA's last year? His subjective rankings mean very little to me. Just ready to watch Clark rip off NATO's arm.
Flo's college P4P are the absolute most worthless rankings out there. Who Cares?
Sorensen is better than both Heil and Meredith
MSU...can't you just say you forgot about Sorensen instead of tap dancing your way around DT's question? The only guy Sorensen lost to was Zain. Meredith got beat by Heil, Gross, Prince and Thorn.
I am a big Sorenson fan. I just truly like Meredith and explained why. That doesn't mean I am right. I just thought he had a great NCAA Tournament and expect that to be his breakout performance. He could very well lose 10 times and make me look like an ass. It has happened before and will again. I am betting on him not being the one to do so!
I think they are very close. Sorenson is so very fundamentally sound that I may have punished him because of it by picking a more wide open and funky Meredith. I wouldn't argue with anyone that said Sorenson is better. His career to date proves that. I simply think Meredith is going to turn heads this season.
Kemdawg is could take the spot and he will major Meredith. Kemdawg could rack up the bonus at 49.
I am happy to be wrong here. It's not like I am cheering for Meredith to do better than Sorenson. His NCAA performance surprised me and put me on the bandwagon. Sorenson has done everything in such a workman like fashion and having Retherford at his weight may have slanted my viewpoint.
Put it this way, I HOPE Sorenson proves to be a top 5 P4P talent before his career is over.
Thank you for your well thought out contribution. You bring life to this message board and I am lucky to have you post in response!
Also, to be fair to Meredith in a career side by side comparison, when pointing out that Sorenson is a 2x AA in 2 seasons, remember that Meredith was 15-7 as a True Freshman at NCState before transferring back to his home state(Wyoming) and taking 2nd his 1st year there as a True Sophomore.
Instead of looking at it as a knock on Sorenson( I think the guy is awesome and could be argued for Top 10), please understand that we are debating over 2 NCAA Sophomore Finalists. It's not like I put the backup from Gardner-Webb over him!
Instead of looking at it as a knock on Sorenson( I think the guy is awesome and could be argued for Top 10), please understand that we are debating over 2 NCAA Sophomore Finalists. It's not like I put the backup from Gardner-Webb over him!
I see a little of your rationale, but keep in mind, Oregons past teams have little to do with their current team. Not to say that Clark Gilman or NATO are the same wrestlers now than in previous years, but it's just them in the equation, not a group of 22 players( of which 15-20 could be different in a two year window)
So, Meredith has to place no more than 2 places behind Sorenson, if not you win? If so, I will take that bet for $50.00 to Wrestling for Life.
Bets waived if either has a significant injury(both need to agree to it being so prior to the NCAA Tournament)?
that was for chief, it's even up for you.
This is funny. I think dt is absolutely right about Sorensen should be ahead of Meredith, but this wager is so favorable to Meredith.
Glad Gilman is ranked below Tomasello in the P4P rankings. More fuel for his fire.
Since it is for a great charity, I will do it. However, it's not like I am near as confident in Meredith as you obviously are in Sorenson. I think odds are in order. I said I thought they were very close. You, on the other hand, have made it obvious you don think that is the case. I say, if I lose I donate $25.00. If you lose, you donate $50.00. You in?
you are the one that put Meredith over Brandon in your lb4lb
