Last year's with Lee, Warner, Murin, Costello and then we got Lugo.
FloWrestling's Early Look at Team Recruiting Rankings
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Last year's with Lee, Warner, Murin, Costello and then we got Lugo.
This is why I'll never leave Hawkeye Report.
Agreed, but I also don't think we're done and I do believe we will have the funds to bring in a great class next year and I do believe
Last years class was ranked #1 by Intermat and a close #2 by FLO and that was hotly debated 1 vs. 2, so they had it very close.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Great contribution to the forum. Thanks.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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The good news is that with all of PSUs signings this year, they shouldn't have any scholarship money left for next year's recruiting class, especially because only Zain graduates.
But I'm sure they'll find the money somewhere...
But I'm sure they'll find the money somewhere...
Do you think Lugo transfers to Iowa?
No, Suriano isn’t leaving Penn State either!
But you do see the contradiciton of "rankings don't mean shit" juxtaposed with "We need more highly ranked recruits", right?
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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Anyone can walk into a bar and pick out the three hottest girls, a little courage anyone can talk to the three hottest girls, but after they go home with someone else you don't say you're a good ladies man.
Probably how much money you have and how much they expect to get.
Thanks for staying on! I’m still shocked by your comment two FRL ago about “many college wrestling programs cheat?” It would be great for you to elaborate on. That’s pretty strong statement. Love what you all do for the sport!
Some would say the hottest girl in the bar was the one you went home with and depending on how many drinks were involved you would be right every time
It was not long after Lee had said he was going to go to Iowa, in one of your sitdown discussions with CP.
You and CP were having a discussion about recruits. CP said something along the lines of chicken and egg... seeming to emphasize the importance of getting great recruits. He pointed out that a single guy could place his team in the top 15 at ncaa.
You replied something along the lines of "you have to coach them too....it's an excuse for whiners"
I believe you also said there are "a lot of doubters of Iowa's program"
Does any of that ring a bell?
i don't recall.
but i certainly never said there were doubters of Iowa's program. i don't think that, i've never thought that, and i'd say anyone that does is out of their mind.
i do recall talking recruiting class rankings and having a difference of opinion w/ CP.
It was probably this episode (considering the show's minutes/notes)
but we no longer use soundcloud as our host.
http://www.flowrestling.org/article/41204-frl-113-what-spencer-means-for-iowa-and-psu#.Wep31ROPLVo
but i certainly never said there were doubters of Iowa's program. i don't think that, i've never thought that, and i'd say anyone that does is out of their mind.
i do recall talking recruiting class rankings and having a difference of opinion w/ CP.
It was probably this episode (considering the show's minutes/notes)
but we no longer use soundcloud as our host.
http://www.flowrestling.org/article/41204-frl-113-what-spencer-means-for-iowa-and-psu#.Wep31ROPLVo
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[QUOTE="smalls103
http://www.flowrestling.org/article/41204-frl-113-what-spencer-means-for-iowa-and-psu#.Wep31ROPLVo[/QUOTE]
Where would you put our wrecking class at?
Thanks Go Hawks
http://www.flowrestling.org/article/41204-frl-113-what-spencer-means-for-iowa-and-psu#.Wep31ROPLVo[/QUOTE]
Where would you put our wrecking class at?
Thanks Go Hawks
where would i rank the hawkeyes current class?
tbh idk. Nomad did the 'way to early' rankings the other day. but i do the final ones that come out in april/may - ish and they are super in depth. so honestly, i don't dive in to it until late. it's way too early. there will be unforeseen senior prospects that emerge, and unforeseen seniors who fall off during the year.
with Hidlay, who i believe you'll get, I'd probably have the Hawks like 5th-6th ish.
tbh idk. Nomad did the 'way to early' rankings the other day. but i do the final ones that come out in april/may - ish and they are super in depth. so honestly, i don't dive in to it until late. it's way too early. there will be unforeseen senior prospects that emerge, and unforeseen seniors who fall off during the year.
with Hidlay, who i believe you'll get, I'd probably have the Hawks like 5th-6th ish.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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ah - yes, i remember. for some reason i thought the conversation was intrinsic to Tom/Terry/Spencer.
but yeah - I said you not only have to sign them, you have to coach them up, too. i don't know why that's shocking. and for the people that say psu ONLY wins because of recruiting or that cael's coaching ability is suspect - yeah - that is whiner rhetoric. you can whine about it, or you can beat them. i'm sure cael won't start recruiting lesser talent so that he can prove to the doubters he can win with less.
edit - why do i feel like i just got sucked in to the same ol' argument?
but yeah - I said you not only have to sign them, you have to coach them up, too. i don't know why that's shocking. and for the people that say psu ONLY wins because of recruiting or that cael's coaching ability is suspect - yeah - that is whiner rhetoric. you can whine about it, or you can beat them. i'm sure cael won't start recruiting lesser talent so that he can prove to the doubters he can win with less.
edit - why do i feel like i just got sucked in to the same ol' argument?
Top ten's current roster:
PSU- 1,3,4,5,6,7,9,10
recruits-2,4,9
IA----- 2,2,7,8
But it would be whining to want wrestling to have investigative journalists instead of paid sycophants.
PSU- 1,3,4,5,6,7,9,10
recruits-2,4,9
IA----- 2,2,7,8
But it would be whining to want wrestling to have investigative journalists instead of paid sycophants.
That indeed was the episode Willie.
With all due respect, you seem to have forgotten what was said.
You said somewhere around the 18 min mark, that the perception that a top recruit (Spencer Lee) believed going to Iowa would help him develop was big for recruiting, adding there were "a lot of doubters of Iowa's program." You also said that the "swagger has ebbed." Those are quotes, and I'm not making this up.
CP replied that a lot of that "may be propaganda."
You followed that with a tribute to how Cael develops talent at PSU, the proof being "look at PSU racking up bonus pts at the ncaa."
Now there's no need to turn this into a case of me saying Cael can't develop talent. I've always maintained that it's hard to say just how much he does develop guys, given the extremely high level they're already at. At the same time, I believe Tom and Terry have been shown to be excellent at developing lower ranked guys. I've thought, along with others on this board, that they've been behind the curve in getting top 10 guys, but in recent years that has improved. Obviously PSU is still firing on all cylinders as far as recruiting top talent.
An aside... despite the pro-PSU bias, I still appreciate the coverage FLO provides, and the rankings are informative. Kudos to you guys on that.
I love that CP and Willie join in on our conversations! And I’m dead serious. Not only is FLO the top media source for wrestling, you can tell these guys are just huge fans of wrestling.
and i genuinely appreciate the wrestling talk. (and gave a hat tip to this board on FRL yesterday. in fact i mention this board often).
Rossel - i didn't mean you, specifically. i meant there was (at the time of that episode) (and still is) a lot of talk about how good a coach Cael really is.
can you find the episode? (you cite the 18min mark). i can't.
i don't know what i possibly could have meant by 'doubters' or 'swagger'. there had to be some context to it.
let me also address this:
"You followed that with a tribute to how Cael develops talent at PSU, the proof being "look at PSU racking up bonus pts at the ncaa."
and this:
"An aside... despite the pro-PSU bias"
both connotatively and literally, you're writing something I entirely disagree with.
of course, it's on the heels of a similar perspective by Jammen (whose M.O. as the world's foremost PSU whiner, i couldn't care less about).
the fact of the matter is it's not a PSU bias, and not anything I say about them is not a 'tribute' or a method of sucking up - it's my honest assessment and one I don't really know how any one could argue with.
I don't know why it has to insinuated (or even posited bluntly) that my opinion is an angle. 1) there is absolutely nothing to gain by me (or flo) 'sucking up' to penn state. i mean, what do I get from lauding penn state? nothing. 2) i believe the facts are with me in the debate to conclude if penn state can coach them up or not. Part of the Iowa mystique was that their starters (and even backups) could beat about anyone at any time. When I was a growing up, it was almost incomprehensible how many matches hawkeyes won that they 'weren't supposed to'. I see the same thing in the current incarnation at PSU. In December of '12 Zain Retherford was dead to rights against Joey Galasso in powerade semis. He rode out the third and won in OT. Then beat a FR Mason Manville in the finals, 2-0. The next season, he beat Logan Stieber. A FR Zain shouldn't have been beating Logan. A FR Nolf shouldn't be beating IMAR. A FR Ed Ruth shouldn't be picking apart #1 Mack Lewnes. All this - according to some - is washed away by saying 'look at what they were ranked in HS'. Subjectively - I SEE the development from HS wrestler to what they become in college. There is development there - and leaps. Objectively - PSU had 4 wrestlers that were FR or SO last year win a National Championship. I think it takes almost a degree of insanity to marginalize that by saying they were talented in HS. 3) calling it 'bias', to me, is really aggravating. I work for a media company, I consistently call things how I see them, there is nothing to be gained by 'bias'. IDK why you wouldn't, at the very least, arrive at the conclusion that this is my informed opinion (even if you disagree with it) as opposed to dismissing it as a preference or agenda.
i've said it before and i'll say it again - PSU fans think we're OSU biased because we stream their home duals. Iowa says we're biased because we talk about how good a team that won 6 of 7 are. And the rest of the country say we're Iowa biased because we've done 100 docs and coverages of them. It gets old.
anyway - sorry so long. end rant.
Rossel - i didn't mean you, specifically. i meant there was (at the time of that episode) (and still is) a lot of talk about how good a coach Cael really is.
can you find the episode? (you cite the 18min mark). i can't.
i don't know what i possibly could have meant by 'doubters' or 'swagger'. there had to be some context to it.
let me also address this:
"You followed that with a tribute to how Cael develops talent at PSU, the proof being "look at PSU racking up bonus pts at the ncaa."
and this:
"An aside... despite the pro-PSU bias"
both connotatively and literally, you're writing something I entirely disagree with.
of course, it's on the heels of a similar perspective by Jammen (whose M.O. as the world's foremost PSU whiner, i couldn't care less about).
the fact of the matter is it's not a PSU bias, and not anything I say about them is not a 'tribute' or a method of sucking up - it's my honest assessment and one I don't really know how any one could argue with.
I don't know why it has to insinuated (or even posited bluntly) that my opinion is an angle. 1) there is absolutely nothing to gain by me (or flo) 'sucking up' to penn state. i mean, what do I get from lauding penn state? nothing. 2) i believe the facts are with me in the debate to conclude if penn state can coach them up or not. Part of the Iowa mystique was that their starters (and even backups) could beat about anyone at any time. When I was a growing up, it was almost incomprehensible how many matches hawkeyes won that they 'weren't supposed to'. I see the same thing in the current incarnation at PSU. In December of '12 Zain Retherford was dead to rights against Joey Galasso in powerade semis. He rode out the third and won in OT. Then beat a FR Mason Manville in the finals, 2-0. The next season, he beat Logan Stieber. A FR Zain shouldn't have been beating Logan. A FR Nolf shouldn't be beating IMAR. A FR Ed Ruth shouldn't be picking apart #1 Mack Lewnes. All this - according to some - is washed away by saying 'look at what they were ranked in HS'. Subjectively - I SEE the development from HS wrestler to what they become in college. There is development there - and leaps. Objectively - PSU had 4 wrestlers that were FR or SO last year win a National Championship. I think it takes almost a degree of insanity to marginalize that by saying they were talented in HS. 3) calling it 'bias', to me, is really aggravating. I work for a media company, I consistently call things how I see them, there is nothing to be gained by 'bias'. IDK why you wouldn't, at the very least, arrive at the conclusion that this is my informed opinion (even if you disagree with it) as opposed to dismissing it as a preference or agenda.
i've said it before and i'll say it again - PSU fans think we're OSU biased because we stream their home duals. Iowa says we're biased because we talk about how good a team that won 6 of 7 are. And the rest of the country say we're Iowa biased because we've done 100 docs and coverages of them. It gets old.
anyway - sorry so long. end rant.
I don’t see the same thing at all in the current incarnation of PSU. Only similarity is domination of the college landscape. Up and down their lineup they have top talent and, in many cases P4P top 10 guys at every weight. I’m not accusing them but the math seems funny. Either way, comparing guys like Ruth and Retherford to guys like Whitmer, Hand, Gillis, etc. is ludicrous at best. It’s ok to accept domination without elevating it to Gable level development and over-achieving. That’s your bias.
and i genuinely appreciate the wrestling talk. (and gave a hat tip to this board on FRL yesterday. in fact i mention this board often).
Rossel - i didn't mean you, specifically. i meant there was (at the time of that episode) (and still is) a lot of talk about how good a coach Cael really is.
can you find the episode? (you cite the 18min mark). i can't.
i don't know what i possibly could have meant by 'doubters' or 'swagger'. there had to be some context to it.
let me also address this:
"You followed that with a tribute to how Cael develops talent at PSU, the proof being "look at PSU racking up bonus pts at the ncaa."
and this:
"An aside... despite the pro-PSU bias"
both connotatively and literally, you're writing something I entirely disagree with.
of course, it's on the heels of a similar perspective by Jammen (whose M.O. as the world's foremost PSU whiner, i couldn't care less about).
the fact of the matter is it's not a PSU bias, and not anything I say about them is not a 'tribute' or a method of sucking up - it's my honest assessment and one I don't really know how any one could argue with.
I don't know why it has to insinuated (or even posited bluntly) that my opinion is an angle. 1) there is absolutely nothing to gain by me (or flo) 'sucking up' to penn state. i mean, what do I get from lauding penn state? nothing. 2) i believe the facts are with me in the debate to conclude if penn state can coach them up or not. Part of the Iowa mystique was that their starters (and even backups) could beat about anyone at any time. When I was a growing up, it was almost incomprehensible how many matches hawkeyes won that they 'weren't supposed to'. I see the same thing in the current incarnation at PSU. In December of '12 Zain Retherford was dead to rights against Joey Galasso in powerade semis. He rode out the third and won in OT. Then beat a FR Mason Manville in the finals, 2-0. The next season, he beat Logan Stieber. A FR Zain shouldn't have been beating Logan. A FR Nolf shouldn't be beating IMAR. A FR Ed Ruth shouldn't be picking apart #1 Mack Lewnes. All this - according to some - is washed away by saying 'look at what they were ranked in HS'. Subjectively - I SEE the development from HS wrestler to what they become in college. There is development there - and leaps. Objectively - PSU had 4 wrestlers that were FR or SO last year win a National Championship. I think it takes almost a degree of insanity to marginalize that by saying they were talented in HS. 3) calling it 'bias', to me, is really aggravating. I work for a media company, I consistently call things how I see them, there is nothing to be gained by 'bias'. IDK why you wouldn't, at the very least, arrive at the conclusion that this is my informed opinion (even if you disagree with it) as opposed to dismissing it as a preference or agenda.
i've said it before and i'll say it again - PSU fans think we're OSU biased because we stream their home duals. Iowa says we're biased because we talk about how good a team that won 6 of 7 are. And the rest of the country say we're Iowa biased because we've done 100 docs and coverages of them. It gets old.
anyway - sorry so long. end rant.
A lot to unpack there, but here's one. You mention Zain's close matches during his senior year, but don't mention his run at the Junior WTT 3 months before he was even at PSU. That's when he beat the (larger) #1 Ben Whitford and (2x 145 lb Fargo champ) Collica before losing to Tsirtsis in the finals. Tsirtsis, who would win the 149 NCAA title 9 months later, even said Retherford was "very tough but tiny for 66 kg". With the day before weigh-ins, he probably outweighed Zain by 10-15 pounds. You made the call on those matches with Joe and your PA/PSU leanings seem somewhat apparent even then (take a listen). But now you somehow attribute his (only) win against Steebler at 141 lb in their first match to Cael's coaching?
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I listened to it and don't hear anything in the way of PA/PSU bias.
Also, if you're asking me if, after beating Ben Whitford and losing 8-3 to Jason Tsirtsis, i assumed Zain would beat a 4x NCAA Champ before going on to win the Hodge and become one of the most prolific DI scorers ever, no. no i did not.
Also, if you're asking me if, after beating Ben Whitford and losing 8-3 to Jason Tsirtsis, i assumed Zain would beat a 4x NCAA Champ before going on to win the Hodge and become one of the most prolific DI scorers ever, no. no i did not.
The math only looks funny because neither you nor I can actually see it. In fact, in Cael's last financial report for 2015 I believe, he states that PSU only used 9.66 schollies that year. The most obvious answer out there is that Cael is getting kids to come to PSU at a steep discount. There are many legitimate reasons why a kid would do so, and every program has benefited from it over the years, including Iowa. The simple truth is that the math hasn't changed one iota from when Iowa received the same benefit during Gable's era. Excellence attracts excellence. That is kinda what Willie was saying about Spencer. Excellence will attract excellence, and he could be the jump start your program has been waiting on for 10 years now. Embrace it.
We know that the talent is attracted to them right now for many reasons. Sure some of these kids would be going there no matter what they were getting. But if even 1 or 2 of these big time recruits are there because some money was open because they were creative with another recruit it is a HUGE deal.
There is just so many real and reliable sources I am hearing this from that some of what is being said has to true. They are pushing, and most likely breaking, many rules that are nearly impossible to prove and their admin is turning a blind eye. Willie and CP suggest in their podcast why don't other coaches stop bitching and just do what they are doing. Well most admins will not let this stuff fly. And many coaches don't want to have to live in a grey area. They are right though. We need to stop bitching about it. We need to face the facts that it is the new norm by some of these coaches. So this is my last post on the cheating that is going on east of the Mississippi. It is not changing. The biggest outlet in amateur wrestling is not going to dig into this at all. The NCAA does not care enough about wrestling to pay attention to it. Coaches are afraid of exposing it and bring down the top teams with the highest profile coaches because it would do nothing but hurt the sport and maybe be the death blow. And these guys pushing the boundaries has forced all RTCs to up their game which is probably good for USA wrestling. And the final reason why, the most likely solution the NCAA would propose would be to separate the RTCs from college rooms and no one wants that other than teams that can't put one together.
It will be sweet as hell when we beat these scumballs by doing things right. Just heard another story this last week about the old ISU coach's recruiting tactics. About as low as they get. Absolutely no respect for the rules and honor in the system.
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That means they haven't recruited good. Getting a guy to commit who doesn't come here or doesn't qualify is not recruiting good. You don't count that as recruiting good.
I spoke out of context what I meant by recruiting well was getting those guys to verbal and have tons of interest from the best 133's in the country.They lost Renteria because they were going after Teasdale hard thinking that would help them with Lee.The whole time the staff had questions about Teasdale but still made him a nice offer which cost them Renteria.Renteria wanted to be a Hawk his whole life.
Umm, ok. To me it seemed fairly obvious you were pulling for Zain in that match and only got excited when he took a shot, but that's subjective. I just don't think using Zain's win over Steebler is a good example of Cael's coaching. Zain's performance at the Junior WTT showed he was a major talent - he was a HS 138 that gave an excellent up and coming college 149 a very tough match. And Steebler was not yet a 4x champ and Hodge winner. He was a 133 moving up to 141 for the first time. Lastly, as much as people make fun of the flu, long bus ride and average officials, Steebler was off in that match. A better example of Cael's coaching would have been if Zain beat him later in the year at BT or Nationals rather than a dual in December.
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Saying Cael can't develop wrestlers is just as silly as saying he is the best at developing them. He is a good coach and an almost too good to be true recruiter. Move along.
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