You play your reserves more when they are playing well. They are playing well now. This wasn't the case against ISU. Uhl had been in a serious funk this offseason where people thought he might even be hurt or that he wasn't happy. Baer had been playing well but really looked overmatched in the ISU game. Both Uhl and Baer looked lost on both ends of the court. It was the first game Baer played against a team with some top flight athletes. He's adjusted but it looked like he had a little deer in headlights going on against ISU. I don't think that would be the case now if we played ISU.
Fran's Lack of Playing Time For the Freshmen a Mistake?
- Thread starter iowalaw
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Right. And I'm not going to worry that much. We've already seen enough of the top 4 or 5 reserves to know they'll be capable when the big minutes come their way. Certainly any game time they can get is a plus, but I don't expect to see any deer in the headlights from them.
I have faith in Fran. Next year even with the massive loss of seniors, rebuilding will still be a better team than Lick's.
No question and it's not like next year's team will just surrender because they lose some kids. Iowa has a pretty solid nucleus returning.
Assuming that the freshmen are working hard and paying attention, they will be better next year even if they aren't seeing much playing time. Williams is going against Mike and Sapp in practice, and I am pretty sure that will make him a better player. Fran knows what he is doing, and the coaches have shown that they can develop players. Baer and Ellingson are examples of improving without seeing the court.
They (all the freshmen) knew what the roster would look like for 2015-16 when they signed their LOI.
As well as 2016-17.
As well as 2016-17.
I remain puzzled why we continue to play our two senior point guards virtually every minute of every game, even though we are setting records for most wins at Iowa by double digits. When they are gone next year, we are going to have a starting point guard who averaged .5 mins per game the previous season, and maybe a true freshmen. That is simply short sighted. I get playing for this year, but next year's team can be another NCAA tournament team and will have potentially an all-American shooting guard in Jok. How often do those come along? Are we just going to waste that talent as a "rebuilding year," or are we going to give him some studs to work with? It's too late to bring in a JUCO PG for next year...so allllllll of our eggs are in the Christian Williams basket. Let's see what the kid can do out there and give him a chance to play with the starters early in the games. Esp the easily winnable games like Illinois, Neb, Penn State, etc.
Every time I've seen them play without one of those two on the floor the other team makes a run. I'd rather keep our seniors on the floor and win easily than play for next year. There is no next year for this team. Play for this one, worry about next season next season.
If Iowa only had 8 wins right now, playing people for experience for the next year makes sense. However, when you only have 4 losses, play to keep it that way.
If Iowa only had 8 wins right now, playing people for experience for the next year makes sense. However, when you only have 4 losses, play to keep it that way.
We were up 20 yesterday and put in 4 subs at one time. Lead quickly went down to 10 or 12, I believe. Generally Fran will put in one or 2 subs at a time and that works well. I think he assumed with a 20 point lead he could give them a chance.
Remember a week ago Sunday? Iowa had a 30pt lead and Fran subbed out the starters and put the freshman in. Did you see what happened? A 30pt lead went to 10 in about 2 and half minutes. Luckily Iowa was able to get a steal and held on for a 14pt win, but it wasn't pretty.
I am all for getting them PT, but if they come in and preform like that vs NW, how can you feel comfortable playing them any other time? I realize we have jumped out to large leads but most of them have been in the first half and if you sub and "lose" the lead, then you are in trouble.
Fran is doing it the right way.
I am all for getting them PT, but if they come in and preform like that vs NW, how can you feel comfortable playing them any other time? I realize we have jumped out to large leads but most of them have been in the first half and if you sub and "lose" the lead, then you are in trouble.
Fran is doing it the right way.
I agree but after NW took a 29 point lead down to 14 in less than 5 minutes, the backup PG's scare me...None of the 3 Freshmen playing regularly off the bench are PG's though but I think they will be fine...
Some of you completely miss the point. Replacing all the starters with all bench when we are up 30 at the end of games is not the answer. That's no better experience than practice. If you want to groom Williams, the guy who will be our starting point guard for the next three years, give him some REAL minutes. Let him move off screens from Woody and feed Jok for open 3s for a few minutes in the first half and early in the second half. We're not going to collapse if our studs are in there helping him along.
Where is the harm in sprinkling in the younger guys with the starters throughout the game to get them experience and give the starting pgs a breather? That is how you build depth.
Where is the harm in sprinkling in the younger guys with the starters throughout the game to get them experience and give the starting pgs a breather? That is how you build depth.
Last year our one freshman not redshirting, Dom Uhl, played roughly ten minutes a game.
This year we've got three guys, all freshmen, averaging something close to Uhl's freshmen ten. Ellingson, Baer and Wagner.
We've got two freshmen redshirting. So that leaves Fleming and Williams.
Let's face it, this is about them, and mostly about Williams. Nothing anyone can say is going to convince anyone that Fran knows what he is doing. So either trust that Fran had a plan when he offered Williams and last year Bohannon and then STOPPED recruiting point guards...or don't trust Fran.
As to playing this year? Maybe Andrew and Christian aren't ready yet? Or we can believe Fran that he has confidence in each but is having trouble finding minutes. Whatever, November is still many months away.
This year we've got three guys, all freshmen, averaging something close to Uhl's freshmen ten. Ellingson, Baer and Wagner.
We've got two freshmen redshirting. So that leaves Fleming and Williams.
Let's face it, this is about them, and mostly about Williams. Nothing anyone can say is going to convince anyone that Fran knows what he is doing. So either trust that Fran had a plan when he offered Williams and last year Bohannon and then STOPPED recruiting point guards...or don't trust Fran.
As to playing this year? Maybe Andrew and Christian aren't ready yet? Or we can believe Fran that he has confidence in each but is having trouble finding minutes. Whatever, November is still many months away.
iowalaw, you speak as if they don't improve in the spring, during summer ball/conditioning/ PTL games, the euro trips they go on and play other teams, and during the non-conference portion of the schedule that includes average & poor teams.
you speak as if Mike Gesell didn't come into the Iowa program and start and compete at a high level from day 1.
Christian Williams will be a full year ahead of where Mike was when he came in & started as a freshman.
In summary, your concerns are shortsighted.
you speak as if Mike Gesell didn't come into the Iowa program and start and compete at a high level from day 1.
Christian Williams will be a full year ahead of where Mike was when he came in & started as a freshman.
In summary, your concerns are shortsighted.
Do you actually put any thought into your replies? Ask the seniors if they would like to come out early in a game? IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT!
Even playing the freshmen in blowouts like Penn St is valuable experience. Making mistakes now could mean they won't make them later. And it means teaching moments from Fran. They let a significant lead dwindle but there were teaching moments galore for them. It was the right decision and I'm glad Fran let them in. Don't forget, Williams saw time against MSU at the Breslin Center and he looked the part. I just hope we keep winning big so as to get the young guys into the game. Never know when they might be called into action.
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What is the harm of playing for THIS year. If Williams was ready to play more he would be on floor more. Putting him in to ml earn from mistakes isn't necessarily a good way to win
What is the harm of playing for THIS year. If Williams was ready to play more he would be on floor more. Putting him in to ml earn from mistakes isn't necessarily a good way to win
Yes, Frantastic. Gessell DID start as a freshmen. You just unwittingly made my point. Do you remember how our team faired being led by a freshmen point guard? We were a super talented team who wound up in the NIT...after suffering a TON of close losses. Losses that wouldn't have happened if we had an experienced point guard leading the team. Due to recruiting misses, we were left with starting a freshmen pg. Granted, Gessell was a big name top 150 recruit, but inexperienced nonetheless and it showed.
Christian Williams was not a highly touted recruit (his best offer was Bradley). The other pg we have coming in next year, Bohannon, was even less highly touted (his best offer was Drake). That means these guys need to be developed. As a head coach, you can't just bury your head in the sand and play for today without thinking about tomorrow. If Fran did that, he wouldn't give scholarship offers to high school freshmen. So we absolutely do need to keep an eye on next year if we want to maintain our trajectory as a top team in the Big 10.
Christian Williams was not a highly touted recruit (his best offer was Bradley). The other pg we have coming in next year, Bohannon, was even less highly touted (his best offer was Drake). That means these guys need to be developed. As a head coach, you can't just bury your head in the sand and play for today without thinking about tomorrow. If Fran did that, he wouldn't give scholarship offers to high school freshmen. So we absolutely do need to keep an eye on next year if we want to maintain our trajectory as a top team in the Big 10.
This, and the announcers have mentioned how they're surprised at our depth several times during games. We often put in 2 or 3 off the bench at the 8-10 minute mark in the first half.
LOL ... Take your meds so you can R-E-L-A-X. Next year will be a struggle early as we lose 4 high quality and experienced guys regardless of some guys getting a few spot minutes this year. Next year's roster will be talented but young. Maximizing this year can pay dividends for future recruiting so that is important in itself. Williams is going to be fine regardless of X amount of PT this year. I do like it when he gets some minutes but it's not worth sacrificing this season's run. Williams is learning in practice, work outs and watching the vets.
If you do not trust Fran, well sir you are the one who needs help.
You make a pretty big assumption that we will hand the reins to Christian Williams the next three years. I know Fran and the staff really like Bohanon and don't for a minute count Connor out as the point guard of the future. Williams has started out at the point due to need but he looks the part of a versatile player who could help us out at a number of positions. I've seen nothing to question the rotation so far and think point guard will work itself out. Fran will play Christian when the opportunity presents itself and in the meantime we have other reserves gaining some really valuable experience.
The proof will be in the pudding, when Iowa plays at Ohio State on Sunday afternoon Feb. 28th. and then play Indiana (in a very important game) barely 48 hrs later in Iowa City on Tuesday March 1st (also Senior Night) near the end of Iowa's long/challenging season. Indiana's chance of winning this game improve significantly as they come into Iowa City after a long break, fresh and ready to go, imo.
Fran has proven that he does an outstanding job of developing players. If he thought Williams was ready for prime time minutes, I am pretty sure that he would be getting meaningful time. Wagner is playing more, because he has shown Fran that he is ready. It's not like Williams isn't benefitting from playing against Mike and Sapp, and from going to the games and seeing the environment in the different arenas. We all realize that PG is going to be a big question mark for next year, but at this point, I trust the coaches are doing what is best for the team and the player.
Fran is making a big mistake in not playing Williams. He just needs to look down the hall at CHA to the women's team that lost a four year starter at PG as well as several other senior starters but had ranked recruiting classes coming in. Practice is different than game speed! While I agree that he is likely getting good experience in practices against Mike and Sapp, but at this point in the season, practice is much more on game film and walkthroughs rather than full speed play. It is great to think he can get experience in summer league but they play little defense in those settings. And to think that JoBo will be the answer is very delusional.
For those of you that think good practice will solve the problem, we have JO and Ellingson as examples of not being to translate to the game. Fran has said many times how those two don't miss in practice, but when the lights are on, they can't make anything. Williams needs court time now! Any coach should always play for current year, but the next year must always be considered.
Let's just hope that next year team is not 12-18 because of our guard play
For those of you that think good practice will solve the problem, we have JO and Ellingson as examples of not being to translate to the game. Fran has said many times how those two don't miss in practice, but when the lights are on, they can't make anything. Williams needs court time now! Any coach should always play for current year, but the next year must always be considered.
Let's just hope that next year team is not 12-18 because of our guard play
He's not playing Williams because he's not good enough. He's barely getting minutes in blowouts, so the guy is either not ready, or not a good PG. This is a kid who was primarily a SG, not a PG in high school. Remember Dickerson? Everyone wondered why he wasn't getting more minutes. It was because he wasn't very good. For all we know, Fran could be saying, "oh s**t", when looking at the PG situation next year, but for now, the focus should be, and is, on this year's team and the guards are playing fine, and the Hawks are winning, a lot. We will worry about next season, next season.
I see CW getting very little meaningful game experience and often with Sapp or Mike on the court. I like it this way as he sees a tiny bit of game action and there's someone to bail him out if he get's bogged down.
I want to enjoy this ride as the next two will be a bit bumpy. CW won't be that much more ready with another 3 minutes a game.
I want to enjoy this ride as the next two will be a bit bumpy. CW won't be that much more ready with another 3 minutes a game.
I think that at one point in an interview, Fran said that he would be comfortable playing either Williams or Fleming in a game if needed. He hasn't for the most part because he is sticking to an eight man rotation. Two years ago Fran was criticized for rotating 10 players because people felt that it changed the momentum of the game at times. I can now practically predict when personnel changes are going to get made during the game. There is a great consistency of how the game is being managed and I believe that this has really helped the continuity of the team.
I wouldn't change a thing about how this team is being coached. This is one of the best stretches of play that I have seen since the great 1969-70
team of Ralph Miller. He rotated only about 7 players although 6 got the most minutes.
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If it is so what? This is a special season and to throw a true Freshman PG out there when he's not needed makes no sense. What's the point in playing him, if we already have 2 PG out there? I realize they are both seniors, but Iowa is #4 in the nation and people are complaining about Fran and his rotations? I just don't get it.
CW will be fine and who knows maybe Bohannon comes in and starts from day 1? Next years team will struggle might as well place that bet now. Our PG is not going to swing us from a 12-18 to a 20-12 year. Sorry CW or bohannon are not that good of players to make that big of impact. Iowa will be returning 6 players again next year, so who cares. Our PG is not that big in our scheme, Fran's scheme's rely on shooters and big men.
I will predict that you will not make that statement during the 2016-17 season. The PG is the quarterback/extra coach on the basketball floor. This is true for virtually every team. Just watch Mason, Cousins, Morris, Tremble, Paige, Dunn, Yogi to name a few. The best teams in the country all have a common denominator and that is good PG play
I do not necessarily think it is a mistake. However Fran himself has said that he wanted some of the freshmen to get more minutes. That's straight from the horses mouth... I think Fran just gets into the game so much that he doesn't even think about it.
When up by 15+, I would think it would be a good idea to get Williams (or whoever) some minutes. Let him play with 3-4 starters, when the pressure is Zero. Especially in their home state.
Well beings this year I predicted the hawks to go 19-13 and be a NCAA/NIT team. I'll take what is happening. I am not going to complain about Frans rotations, he obviously knows what he is doing.
Next year I see the same they are going to be replacing 4 starters with some pretty good talent. Just because our freshman PG isn't getting minutes is not going to change any of the outcomes next year. I can guarantee you that. I think Iowa next year will be a borderline NIT/maybe sneak into the NCAA. Depends on some things (if jok returns, 2nd & 3rd scoring options emerge). We return some good guards next year (Ellingson, Williams, Flemming) Just because they are not playing a lot won't mean they won't be ready to play next year. That's what the non-conf is for.
Sure good teams tend to have good players. What about MSU, Purdue, Baylor, or West Virginia? All of those teams have average PG. Why do you think a couple extra minutes in a few games is going to make such a difference? If Williams works hard in practice and develops his game in the summer then he'll become a good player with his physical assets regardless of if Fran puts him in a few games.
What is your accuracy rate with predictions? I'm asking because I don't think DavenportHawk8 will have any reason to not say, "Our PG is not that big in our scheme, Fran's scheme's rely on shooters and big men." And the odd thing is I don't necessarily agree with him.
But the thing is, this worry over what we don't know actually extends beyond reason. Iowa is doing pretty well this year without a point guard from your list. Wisconsin did pretty well last year without a point guard from your list.
I've seen no one claim we're going to be a great team next year, but I've seen plenty of what usually turns out to be predictions based on over-reactions and fear of the unknown.
If everyone improves as much as Uhl did in one yr we wont have much to worry about. Remember these kids that are not getting minutes in the actual game are playing every single day against the number 5 team in the nation at practice. You don't think that helps them improve. They will be more athletic next year BUT they may drive Fran nuts also with young mistakes, but that comes with the territory.
To be fair, do you expect Fran to say anything else than he'd be comfortable playing Williams/Fleming if necessary? I can't see any coach saying, "no, I don't want to play these kids". It's not like Fran hasn't had plenty of opportunities to play them more with the numerous blowouts Iowa has had. Fran would probably not soil his pants if they had to play a few more minutes because he'd still have a senior (either MG or AC) who would be running the point, and they would be playing with 2 other seniors and a junior. Next year is a totally different situation. I doubt Fran would feel comfortable if he had to start (or give significant minutes) either of those guys because MG or AC was out with an injury.
Fran is correct in not playing these guys more minutes. They obviously aren't ready right now and the emphasis should be winning this season. Worry about next season, next season. Oh, and I'm a fan of a 7-8 man rotation, since I think guys get more continuity. Now, if Iowa starts pressing more next season, then maybe you want to go a little deeper rotation, but it's totally unnecessary this season.
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