Not to mention that MG and AC are also excellent defensive players. Keeping opposing PG out of the lane makes the entire team defense much better.
Fran's Lack of Playing Time For the Freshmen a Mistake?
- Thread starter iowalaw
- Start date
Wis also had a veteran team and 2 guys who were drafted in the first round of the NBA draft last summer. That will not be the case with Iowa next year.
Oh, and I'm not worried about the freshman not playing enough minutes. While I'm of the belief Williams and Bohannon will be a huge dropoff in PG production from what we get from MG and AC this year, I'll worry about next season, next season. I'm enjoying this season and am glad Fran is more concerned with winning games this year, then trying to develop players for next season.
This has happened a couple of times now. He's giving them their chances as a unit, but it's not going well and some of the starters wind up coming back in. Still, he IS giving them some minutes and experience. That will pay off.
Oddly enough I have a feeling that Williams, Fleming, Wagner and even the guys redshirting are getting plenty of practice this season.
Williams having to go against Clemons and Gesell everyday has to be paying dividends. He hasn't looked overwhelmed when he has had a chance to play in a couple games with the game still on the line. Fran however has been selective when he has used him I believe, trying to put him in the best situation for success..
Williams played in the MSU game. Don't know why but he did. Fran is boss but I do wish he was giving CW more PT but not at the expense of the win of course. What if Gesell or Sapp (God forbid) get sick or hurt? Never know.
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All I know is, if those of you who believe CW is not "good enough" to deserve any playing time in games when we are up by double digets, and his very assertion into a game with 4 of our starters could mean a mega collapse, aren't you also saying Fran whiffed big time at recruiting point guards?
I mean, I don't care how hard someone practices...they aren't going to go from total scrub to serviceable Big 10 starter in 9 months. Moreover, Bohannon looks to be less ready for prime time than any PG we've had at Iowa since the Lick era.
Obviously we came close on Ulis...but shouldn't we have had a backup plan for the next 4 yrs after Ulis? How many shooting guards can we have on one roster? If CW isn't good enough to play on a team that is dominating all of its opponents, he's not going to be good enough to lead a team to the NCAA next year.
I mean, I don't care how hard someone practices...they aren't going to go from total scrub to serviceable Big 10 starter in 9 months. Moreover, Bohannon looks to be less ready for prime time than any PG we've had at Iowa since the Lick era.
Obviously we came close on Ulis...but shouldn't we have had a backup plan for the next 4 yrs after Ulis? How many shooting guards can we have on one roster? If CW isn't good enough to play on a team that is dominating all of its opponents, he's not going to be good enough to lead a team to the NCAA next year.
Lol, everyone is a total scrub when they don't play on a top 5 team. Why do you always have to talk in extremes? Good teams are able to let young players grow in practice instead of under the spotlight. You seem to have some anxiety issues when you're dealing with the unknown.
I know it's hard for some people on here but I try not to read too much into anyone's play in a 20 point blowouts. Some people are really exaggerating what happened the last 3 games in the blowouts. Is Fran unhappy with the way things closed out in those games? Of course he's the coach and he wants to be 100% sure of victory when he subs in the bench warmers. I'm a fan so I really don't care how the scrubs close out a game as long as it gets closed out. Difference between being a fan and a coach. Fran cares how the game gets closed out. There are plenty of possible reasons as to why those leads diminished. There's no evidence to prove CW's ready or not ready for major college basketball, one way or another. Maybe he's not ready, maybe he is and there's just no minutes for him. Maybe he's having a hard time beating out someone as a true freshman on a team that is playing for the Big Ten title every game. My only issue is that nobody on here knows either way. There's no evidence to prove anyone's opinion on here. So why not leave this discussion for the offseason or for next year?
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Actually there is now a decent method to "prove" opinions now that we can go back and read posts from months ago.
A lot of first time starters are a surprise every season in college ball. Its not unimaginable that CW could be one of those players.
Could be selling Jordan short. I said the night we signed him that he was likely to start. Still think so.
Could be selling Jordan short. I said the night we signed him that he was likely to start. Still think so.
you know what I find that is hilarious,
Fran has a great eye for talent until he sign a player then all of a sudden the kid can't even play BB, as well is the worst BB talent in all of D1 BB,
Clemmons was a 2* by ESPN and 77th best PG. and now look at him,
Marble was a 3* who was recruited by Lick and yet he is still in the NBA for the 2nd straight year
White was a 3* that NONE of the big schools in Ohio even looked at, now he was a 2nd round Draft pick where the team that drafted him sent him over seas to work on his outside shot.
posters need to make up their mind on this. EITHER FRAN has a good eye for TALENT or he knows nothing about the recruits he does sign.. so make up you mind {PLEASE}
Fran has a great eye for talent until he sign a player then all of a sudden the kid can't even play BB, as well is the worst BB talent in all of D1 BB,
Clemmons was a 2* by ESPN and 77th best PG. and now look at him,
Marble was a 3* who was recruited by Lick and yet he is still in the NBA for the 2nd straight year
White was a 3* that NONE of the big schools in Ohio even looked at, now he was a 2nd round Draft pick where the team that drafted him sent him over seas to work on his outside shot.
posters need to make up their mind on this. EITHER FRAN has a good eye for TALENT or he knows nothing about the recruits he does sign.. so make up you mind {PLEASE}
Put me in the eye for talent camp. It impressed me that Williams, a kid basically learning a new position to help the team stepped onto the court at Michigan State the toughest home court in the Big Ten outside of Maryland and ran the team like a vet and yet has played little to none before or since. Fran seems like a great teacher of the game and we need to keep that in mind when looking at players who come in as 3-point specialists, defensive stoppers, etc. Fran teaches these kids to become complete players.
Really, I thought those guys were just watching videos during practice. Wagner is actually getting game minutes. Plus, I didn't realize Wagner was a PG (or a 2G), but you always teach me something new, so thanks.
However, practice time is nothing like game experience. The difference between practice and actual game time is like the difference between playing against high school players and college players. Totally different level of speed and level of talent.There's a difference coming into a game with a lot of veteran starters to pick you up, then being the starting PG, playing around 30 minutes, and expected to run the offense and make a real contribution on both ends of the floor.
I'm not saying he won't develop into a good/decent PG, but sorry, practice time doesn't simulate game experience. There will be a learning curve next year, the question will be how long will it take for things to click with him.
Agree, but I wonder what the odds of that outcome resulting. The guy wasn't even a primary PG in high school, and now we think he's going to play avg PG in the B1G without seeing any real minutes this year. Maybe, but more likely not going to happen, at least not for the first few months.
It also means there is no room for error. If CW isn't up to the task (let's say he's more Dickerson than Gesell) then Fran is stuck relying on a freshman to play the point, and we aren't talking about a highly ranked recruit. It's not that either of these guys can't do the job, it's that I think some people are assuming it's a given they will, and that there will be no or little growing pains experienced with these guys. These guys will develop but it's going to take time. To expect them to start out next year, with no real experience running the point against D1 players, is setting yourself up for unrealistic expectations.
The issue isn't so much will they develop into decent ball players, the issue is whether they will be able to step up next year and play at a level that won't be such a dropoff that Iowa won't make the NCAA tournament next year. There will be a significant dropoff from MG/AC to CW/Bohannon/Flemming, if for no other reason you are losing a lot of experience/leadership. How much of a dropoff will it be and how long will it take for those guys to develop, since they are getting no real playing time this season, is the question?
Even if White does develop into a pro player overseas that doesn't necessarily equate for the team that drafted him to bring him back. If his team thought he could develop into an NBA player they can use they would have sent him to the D league to develop where they would still have had him on their payroll. He may come back next summer and sign on a summer league team but there just aren't enough openings on NBA rosters to accommodate 60 new players players every year..
Thanks. Been awhile and didn't remember. I do remember that he played within himself and wasn't a liability.
Agreed. Look at Wisconsin's Happ. Redshirted last year because Kaminsky was playing in front of him, and this year as a redshirt freshman is one of the best offensive big men in the conference. Every minute that Bo would have worried about getting Happ minutes last year would have been a minute his best player wasn't on the floor...and the year of practicing against a future NBA first rounder obviously didn't lead to Happ's skills deteriorating.
Really, I thought those guys were just watching videos during practice. Wagner is actually getting game minutes. Plus, I didn't realize Wagner was a PG (or a 2G), but you always teach me something new, so thanks.
Just trying to help since you stated, "glad Fran is more concerned with winning games this year, then trying to develop players for next season."
It seemed to me you forgot the guys do practice. Much like you seem to forget that anyone that follows college basketball knows players come and go. You are waiving a "caution flag" for every lap around the track. Makes for a very boring race, and we don't really get anywhere.
My goodness! We're in the hunt for a Big Ten Championship and you are still worried that Fran doesn't know how to recruit talent and coach it up?!?!?
We will get what we get next year! I know you hate what you consider Pollyanna's but Holy Cow look where we are! There WERE no Pollyanna's, just fans who saw the writing on the wall.
There really is no reason to play the young guys this year. You don't play guys just to get them experience when it could cost you a game. Look at Kansas. They have two stud recruits in Diallo and Bragg sitting on the bench for the majority of games. Plus they have another four star guard Freshman sitting on the bench. But they are playing the guys that are going to help them win most this year. Same as Iowa. They have plenty of time to work on their game and improve in the offseason. Four years ago they probably would have played a lot more but it is good to be at a point that they don't need to play them.
LOL. DanL nobody gets a burr up their backside more than you do. Oh, well, you do provide me with plenty of chuckles reading your nonsensical rants.
I guess you missed the numerous other threads where I specifically talked about PG and guards. In fact, another poster got all upset because I brought up PG for next year. Keep knocking down your strawmen, Dan. There the only thing you can knock down.
Thanks Dan, for pointing out the guys practice (rolling eyes). Guys come and go? Really. You are on a roll today. Raising a "caution flag" for every lap...". You don't read very well do you. I've said several times in this thread, "I'll work about next season, next season. I'll enjoying this one.". So, it seems like you are the one who got all worked up for no reason, but that seems to be what you do very, very well.
"We're in the hunt for a Big Ten Championship and you are still worried that Fran doesn't know how to recruit talent and coach it up?!?!?"
Danny boy, you found another strawman to knock down because you can't argue point. Do you read anything I write. The only one who's throwing a tantrum is you I'm really enjoying this season, you seem to be so upset, you're throwing tantrums on a message board about things not said. Get a life or take your meds, please. Please show a quote where I said Fran couldn't "recruit talent and coach it up". In fact, I'm pretty sure I said the opposite, that Fran could recruit talent and does a nice job developing those players. It takes time to develop though, and a freshman and soph PG's are likely to go through some growing pains next year since neither will have any real game experience. I'd bet if you ask 100 basketball experts, at least 99 would concur. It's not controversial to anyone but you because I could say today was a sunny day, and you'd find some reason to bitch and moan about it.
"We will get what we get next year! "
Brilliant, that's original. Wait, that's what I've said at least a half dozen times in this thread. Dan, stop stealing my material, get your own material for once.
We are having the greatest season in a long time, and you can't enjoy it because you have to bitch just to bitch. Seriously, take a deep breath, enjoy the success. If you get this worked up over non-criticisms, it's probably a good thing you don't post on any message board, maybe even read the responses. It's actually funny how worked up you got over a "I'll worry about next year, next year" post. I'd hate to see how you'd react if I said, "Dan, have a nice day". You'd probably put out a hit on me. Chill out guy.
"He's not playing Williams because he's not good enough. He's barely getting minutes in blowouts, so the guy is either not ready, or not a good PG. This is a kid who was primarily a SG, not a PG in high school. Remember Dickerson? Everyone wondered why he wasn't getting more minutes. It was because he wasn't very good. For all we know, Fran could be saying, "oh s**t", when looking at the PG situation next year, but for now, the focus should be, and is, on this year's team and the guards are playing fine, and the Hawks are winning, a lot. We will worry about next season, next season."
"To be fair, do you expect Fran to say anything else than he'd be comfortable playing Williams/Fleming if necessary? I can't see any coach saying, "no, I don't want to play these kids". It's not like Fran hasn't had plenty of opportunities to play them more with the numerous blowouts Iowa has had. Fran would probably not soil his pants if they had to play a few more minutes because he'd still have a senior (either MG or AC) who would be running the point, and they would be playing with 2 other seniors and a junior. Next year is a totally different situation. I doubt Fran would feel comfortable if he had to start (or give significant minutes) either of those guys because MG or AC was out with an injury."
Phantom, these quotes are both from you on this thread, and you sure seem to worry about next season, and criticize our future point guards, quite harshly for someone just having a good time this year.
"To be fair, do you expect Fran to say anything else than he'd be comfortable playing Williams/Fleming if necessary? I can't see any coach saying, "no, I don't want to play these kids". It's not like Fran hasn't had plenty of opportunities to play them more with the numerous blowouts Iowa has had. Fran would probably not soil his pants if they had to play a few more minutes because he'd still have a senior (either MG or AC) who would be running the point, and they would be playing with 2 other seniors and a junior. Next year is a totally different situation. I doubt Fran would feel comfortable if he had to start (or give significant minutes) either of those guys because MG or AC was out with an injury."
Phantom, these quotes are both from you on this thread, and you sure seem to worry about next season, and criticize our future point guards, quite harshly for someone just having a good time this year.
"We will worry about next season, next season."
That quote shows up 5 times from me in this thread, but I guess you missed that because, well, you have to bitch about something, don't you?
The paragraphs above are explaining why CW isn't getting more playing time this year (I didn't start this thread). You can't even bring in good quotes to make your case. See highlighted and underlined portion. Looks like I'm saying enjoy this season, worry about next season, next season. Not sure how I can make that point any clearer.
And no, I didn't criticize our future PG's 'quite harshly'. As usual you are making up faux controversy because I could type CW is a good PG, and you'd be pissed I didn't say he was going to be the greatest PG to ever play at Iowa. There's nothing controversial in either of those paragraphs. Most rational people would agree, but you aren't very rational, so maybe you won't.
Again, you would be unhappy no matter what I typed. If those paragraphs upset you so much, well, my recommendation is to stop reading this message board, or put me on ignore, because there's nothing controversial or "harsh" regarding my comments about next year's PG. You need some meds, or relaxation tapes or something. As I say above in the highlighted portion, enjoy the season. We are winning and we are winning a lot. Enjoy it. Stop bitching about what you consider to be negative comments. It's crazy, as I seem to be enjoying the season much more than the sally sunshiners, who seem to troll the message boards to find any negative comment, which sends them into hyper sensitive mode, and as a result, they end up bitching more than anyone. Enjoy the season, buddy, it could be a once in a lifetime.
Thanks.
"It's crazy, as I seem to be enjoying the season much more than the sally sunshiners, who seem to troll the message boards to find any negative comment, which sends them into hyper sensitive mode, and as a result, they end up bitching more than anyone. Enjoy the season, buddy, it could be a once in a lifetime."
the sally sunshiners.
they troll, they are hyper sensitive and they bitch more than anyone. And it turns out those annoying Hawkeye fans were right all along.But you Hawkeye fans better enjoy it! This might be the last time your team will ever be this good!!!!
LOL....go find another team to troll you Illinois fan.
If memory serves me correctly, no one asked Fran specifically about playing Williams or Fleming. He made this comment about being comfortable playing them if needed without being asked the question. The fact that Williams played against Indiana in the 1st half because of fouls on Gesell and Clemons indicates to me that his statement was correct.
There is obviously a difference between practice and the actual games themselves but these guys all want to play and I would imagine that the one's not seeing as much time on the court are working their butts off in practice trying to earn more playing time. Wagner has certainly earned his time as has Baer and it has happened because of how they practice and what Fran sees in practice every day. The opportunity to play is also there for them but with two veteran point guards it makes it harder for Williams to see any significant amount of playing time at the pg position.
You throw a tantrum, can't formulate a coherent argument so you erect strawmen, and then you fall back on your lame "you are an Illinois fan". Can't you come up with something new? Either show where I said something wrong, or stop bitching. It gets old. Am I a better Hawkeye fan than you? I don't know, but I sure and hell whine less than you do.Thanks.
"It's crazy, as I seem to be enjoying the season much more than the sally sunshiners, who seem to troll the message boards to find any negative comment, which sends them into hyper sensitive mode, and as a result, they end up bitching more than anyone. Enjoy the season, buddy, it could be a once in a lifetime."
the sally sunshiners.
But you Hawkeye fans better enjoy it! This might be the last time your team will ever be this good!!!!
LOL....go find another team to troll you Illinois fan.
In the future, if you are incapable of correctly stating my position, or quoting me, then refrain from responding, because I get so tired of dealing with your strawment arguments. Be an honest person and argue against the point the other person is making, don't make up fake points to win the argument. It's juvenile on your part.
Yes because quoting you, as I did, wasn't being honest about what you said?
And I had you on ignore for months while you just kept replying to my posts and lying about things I'd supposedly said months earlier. So, if responding to you when you attack me makes you angry, YOU turn me in. Maybe I'll get banned which considering the alternative of reading your venom isn't so bad. Or maybe you'll get yourself banned? Or, quit responding to me at all, or referencing me at all, and find out how fast you never read another complaint from me to you or about you again!!! Because each and every one of these little tizzy's we have come from your snake like strikes at me from the grass! I'd just as soon have walked right by you without ever knowing you were there. But when you bite at me, I will kick you in the teeth. Such as calling you an Illini fan.
I'd say if you Williams practice is pretty good stuff facing the back court of the #3 team in the country everyday. I'd say that can be as good as real game time minutes. Next year he will be on the floor with guys that have played Jok, Dom, Behr, Wagner I think he will be ok I'm not saying there won't be a bump in the road but we will be fine.
Well, maybe he's good, maybe he isn't. I don't know stars but I think Woodbury and Gesell had a few but some very "intelligent" posters here have for the past 3 years been demanding that they both be benched permanently because they're no good. Even this year a few still think we'd be better off without them. I don't remember who else was recruiting Gesell but I do remember that the great talent hunter Row Williams worked hard to bet Woodbury. Who knows, maybe these days Roy wipes his brow in relief that he dodged a bullet there. OTOH, maybe Roy would have found a use for him.
I'm wondering if the bottom one or two players who suit up are so under-achieving that Fran won't play them until they show some promise. Maybe they'll see the light and transfer, which allows Iowa to get a much better player. I hope they come around, but Fran is not going to play a kid who doesn't deserve the minutes. I am not sold at all on Fleming and Williams, but I hope I am proved wrong. I think that Fran sees that kids not named McCaffery on his kids' team and league are as good or better than these guys.
Unfortunately, seeing our bench look bewildered at Indiana today and go 0 for everything makes me awfully worried about next year. Presumably, the bench guys who did play are better than Williams and Flemming. That doesn't bode well for our point guard situation next year.
Last night was not a good game for Iowa's players of the future, but unless you want to change coaches, we are going to need to trust that Fran knows what he is doing. I do. He is one of the leaders for national coach of the year, so I will wait and see what he has for us next year. Iowa does have a lot of question marks, especially at PG.
Yes, you quoted me then made conclusions which contradict the quotes. LOL. I never lied once, you just hate to face the truth. I'm not angry, I'm embarrassed for you. A person your age should act like a grownup, not use childish rants.Yes because quoting you, as I did, wasn't being honest about what you said?
Or, quit responding to me at all, or referencing me at all, and find out how fast you never read another complaint from me to you or about you again!!! Because each and every one of these little tizzy's we have come from your snake like strikes at me from the grass! I'd just as soon have walked right by you without ever knowing you were there. But when you bite at me, I will kick you in the teeth. Such as calling you an Illini fan.
What is your problem? You have some serious anger issues. Get some professional help. Nothing I wrote should send you in the meltdown mode you've displayed here. Notice you have yet to dispute any point I've made regarding the team, instead you've just went off the deep end with a full blown tantrum. Pathetic. Again, argue your points, and stop erecting strawmen arguments or whining. I stated at least 5 times in this thread I'll worry about next year, next year. Saying Iowa's inexperience at PG next will result in some early growing pains, is NOT worrying about next year.
If you call what you are doing "kicking me in the teeth", then LOL. I find it amusing. You are acting like a child throwing a temper tantrum. You are making my point, you fail (or are incapable of making) to make a well reasoned argument, so you resort to strawmen arguments, emotionalism and rantings. I'd hope you are better than this but given my many exchanges with you, I'm not sure you are.
Agree. Your last sentence is the point I (and many others) have been trying to make and we're told to never question Fran. Any reasonable person would say we are going to experience some growing pains next season at PG. It doesn't mean CW and Bohannon won't do a decent job, but expecting inexperienced players to step in at PG and play at an avg level against B1G competition is a tall order (and you correctly point out they have other question marks). It has nothing to do with Fran not being a good coach or a good developer of talent It has to do with PG being the QB of the team, and game experience is pretty important to becoming good at this. Also, there's no margin of error for Fran. He has NO proven talent to step in. If CW is more like Dickerson than Gesell then Iowa is likely in trouble. I'm not saying he will be but we know Fran isn't confident in his abilities this year because he's giving him no playing time even in Iowa's blowouts, or games where MG or AC are playing poorly.
We most likely will see a significant dropoff in PG performance next year. You have 2 guys who have started for 4 years and now are being replaced by a soph and FR, who've played practically no actual game minutes.
Just to make sure another poster doesn't have another one of his epic meltdowns, let me be clear; I'm not predicting doom for next season, and I'm not worrying about it now. We'll have a much better feel of their development come next fall. I'm getting a real kick out of watching this team. They are fun to watch and they are having an incredible season. If AC and MG would step up and play like they were doing early in the conference play, this team could make a nice run in the NCAA tournament.
The question that concerns me is why is it that after every loss fan's think that this or that needs to change. I hope people do realize that the last undefeated season in D1 NCAA Mens basketball was like 30+ years ago....we are going to lose some games and just because we do does not mean that you should question everything especially this season. I mean of all of our losses we were competitve and had opportunity to win (all with in 10 points or less) and all of our losses are "quality losses" to really good team on the road or neutral site and we are still projected to be a #1 or #2 seed in the NCAA, tied for lead in Big Ten, having one of the best seasons in my lifetime, and you feel the need to question whether or not the Freshman should play more because we were up 15 points? We were 20 at ISU how did that work out? Indiana was up 18 on us at one point and next thing you know we were up 5, you can't just pull your starters bc you are up 15 points against big ten opponents because you have to respect the fact that they can come back
Just stop communicating to me or about me and this all goes away. We can both be on this board and enjoy it without having these stupid conversations about what you think of me or other Pollyanna's who seem to think the Hawkeyes might someday win a Big Ten Championship.
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