Get rid of riding time for sure. If a wrestler takes down a guy he gets two. NO escape point available for bottom guy. The top guy will work harder to flip or tilt the guy for back points with no risk of giving up escape point. And there is no advantage to just laying on the guy with a BS ride. Then the guy can cut-him and go for another take-down. The aggressive guy should get better than a 2-1 (take-down/escape) point split. Reward offensive wrestling! Wrestling is a take-down, tilt and stick'm game. More fans would like the sport.
Get rid of the escape point & riding time !
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Couldn't disagree with this more. Riding time is a reward for being able to show maximum control over your opponent, it's part of what makes Folk Style, Folk Style. Sure you could get rid of the point for it, but how many matches do we see a real struggle by one guy either trying to solidify that point or try and avoid giving up that point.
I am in favor of riding rules changes around riding and changing point structures for escape points, but I think a good ride (notice I say good) adds dimension to Folk, where I think Free Style has very little dimension and shows very little dominance over your opponent with the exception of being better at getting a take down.
There are a lot of good ideas on this topic on the "Willy" thread.
I am in favor of riding rules changes around riding and changing point structures for escape points, but I think a good ride (notice I say good) adds dimension to Folk, where I think Free Style has very little dimension and shows very little dominance over your opponent with the exception of being better at getting a take down.
There are a lot of good ideas on this topic on the "Willy" thread.
We already have that, it’s called Freestyle.
Refs just need to call top guy for stalling if he is not trying to put opponent on his back. So simple.
Just go ahead and skip down until you see my post, it's really the only one that matters
Getting off bottom and riding are a mental part of the game. I want mat wresting as part of the skill set to be a great folkstyler. You have to be able to wrestle all 3 positions in order to excel as folk. To many kids are great on their feet but can't get off bottom. Jordan is an example. They don't commit to getting out nor to riding on top.
Only national champ I can think of in recent times with few mat skills is Snyder. Is that a function of being out massed by as much as 50 lbs so he didn't want to expend the energy getting out or riding? As talented as Snyder is I am sure he could have learned it.
To those that say folkstyle is killing us on the international level I give you Dake and Taylor as exhibits 1 and 2. Both are doing things on the international level with mat skills that few see. How many pins in international competition does DT have. He didn't learn those skills staying on his feet all the time. Let folkstyle be different. It is okay to have diversity.
All that said I would be calling stalling on the top man. Putting legs in and sitting there is not riding it is stalling. Crunching a power half and generally roughing the bottom guy up is riding. Equally sitting on bottom when the top man has legs in waiting for a stalemate is worthy of a stall call. Call a parallel ride stall on the top man. Count the 5 when they grab or trap an ankle. When they hit their feet in rear standing start the count. Equally call the handfight down block stalls. My boys said many times the best way to stall was to take a shot, grab a leg and wait for the stalemate call. You could catch a lunger and chew up clock. Seems to me that is stalling and should be called as such. Yes I went Gable on a ref and told him to call stalling on my son when he quit moving in any position. When my boys were competing they knew the refs in the area. They knew that one in particular didn't allow the action to stop. He called the double stall for the dancing bear routine. Coach started having him come officiate challenge matches as guys learned to keep moving and chain wrestle.
Only national champ I can think of in recent times with few mat skills is Snyder. Is that a function of being out massed by as much as 50 lbs so he didn't want to expend the energy getting out or riding? As talented as Snyder is I am sure he could have learned it.
To those that say folkstyle is killing us on the international level I give you Dake and Taylor as exhibits 1 and 2. Both are doing things on the international level with mat skills that few see. How many pins in international competition does DT have. He didn't learn those skills staying on his feet all the time. Let folkstyle be different. It is okay to have diversity.
All that said I would be calling stalling on the top man. Putting legs in and sitting there is not riding it is stalling. Crunching a power half and generally roughing the bottom guy up is riding. Equally sitting on bottom when the top man has legs in waiting for a stalemate is worthy of a stall call. Call a parallel ride stall on the top man. Count the 5 when they grab or trap an ankle. When they hit their feet in rear standing start the count. Equally call the handfight down block stalls. My boys said many times the best way to stall was to take a shot, grab a leg and wait for the stalemate call. You could catch a lunger and chew up clock. Seems to me that is stalling and should be called as such. Yes I went Gable on a ref and told him to call stalling on my son when he quit moving in any position. When my boys were competing they knew the refs in the area. They knew that one in particular didn't allow the action to stop. He called the double stall for the dancing bear routine. Coach started having him come officiate challenge matches as guys learned to keep moving and chain wrestle.
I get tired of college folk riding. It's boring. spiral rides suck. leg rides suck. Remember Matt Brown vs Mike Evans, versions I, II, III, etc? Ouch. Plenty of other examples
Yes, if the top man is demonstrably trying to turn his opponent to back, and refs called stalling, I suppose I could get back on board with it.
Yes, if the top man is demonstrably trying to turn his opponent to back, and refs called stalling, I suppose I could get back on board with it.
I think instead of calling stalling on the top guy, call stalemate and reset them. If there is another stalemate after that, put them back on their feet. If the top guy wants to keep him down, he better get active.
Parallel rides with legs in is the worst wrestling ever and we need to get rid of it. The top guy is simply immobilizing the bottom guy and then taking a nap on him. That needs to be fixed. You either need to be working for the turn on top or swung out like CC. That's the ultimate control.
Completely agree on legs. And the rules shouldn’t even need to be changed; they’re riding parallel - unless they’re close to turning the guy it’s stalling.
The guy who did my officiating training said he always told the coaches before meets that he would NEVER call stalling on a bottom man if a leg is in; and if he isn’t getting turned he would call stalemate.
I completely agree that a reversal should be worth more than 2 but should it be the same as a TD?
Or what about not giving an escape point at all after a take down. Only give the point if you start a period down or on a reset in the down position when the top guy runs you out of bounds?
That puts a lot more value on a takedown or reversal.
That puts a lot more value on a takedown or reversal.
I’m tired of all this bitching lately. How is a guy going to gas someone from bottom if we take away the incentive to ride?!
Sarcasm
Sarcasm
If you give three for a reversal. Then you’ll see folk become more like Freestyle. More cutting the bottom man. Less working for the fall on top because you’d only get two for near fall and that’s not worth the risk of giving up 3
Sure, if you don’t care about what makes folk style folkstyle, if you just want takedowns, sure.
And to think removing escapes would increase turns and pins is absolutely laughable. There’s be less, not more, reason to work on top.
But, that is likely exactly what op wants, exciting double legs, ankle picks, etc. Brent Metcalf at his pinnacle. Even Nelson B.
Only my opinion of course, but the same thinking applies to those who salivate over college football OT. Removes the point and purpose of the game, but wooohee does it pop you a boner.
And to think removing escapes would increase turns and pins is absolutely laughable. There’s be less, not more, reason to work on top.
But, that is likely exactly what op wants, exciting double legs, ankle picks, etc. Brent Metcalf at his pinnacle. Even Nelson B.
Only my opinion of course, but the same thinking applies to those who salivate over college football OT. Removes the point and purpose of the game, but wooohee does it pop you a boner.
I think this may lead to more injuries. Likely need to shorten the matches. Feet to mat throws cause more injuries,me thinks!
Leg riding in general IMO is a form of stalling my biggest problem with stall riding is the way guys now just pinch a foot between there knees as a breakdown. That alone is reason enough to change the rules. Most of the time this tech is used there is no attempt for offense points just like riding an ankle. Once a breakdown has been attempted there should be a quick 3 count then the top man should be hit with stalling. No time should be giving without offensive action just to achieve a “riding point”.
Countless times we see 2/3 of a match in which there is no offensive action just riding and defending in neutral positions these types of matches need to be eliminated by rule changes.
I do not like the entire way freestyle is set up either, with some more aggressive rules in folk style I believe it still would be the best form of wrestling.
Countless times we see 2/3 of a match in which there is no offensive action just riding and defending in neutral positions these types of matches need to be eliminated by rule changes.
I do not like the entire way freestyle is set up either, with some more aggressive rules in folk style I believe it still would be the best form of wrestling.
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Just get rid of riding time. That’s not a universal folk style rule. It makes for boring wrestling. Sometimes subjective too. Most guys have no intention of turning opponents, just want to ride him to adjust riding time. If you get rid of riding time, guys can still ride if they want, so your not taking that away. Wouldn’t hurt to have some exhibitions without riding time to see what happens.
Careful what you wish for. Sometimes it takes Spencer a minute to get his first turn. Also that encourages stalling on bottom
This is not a bad suggestion maybe some test runs with this type of rule would be good. You still would need to award aggressive wrestling on feet and something to deal with playing the edge as we seen in many of the matches against Lehigh.
There would be no problem with SL because there always would be action toward nearfall points
So why not 3 for the TD, 2 for a reversal, & 1 for escape? That would encourage more activity on the feet & less laying on your belly on the bottom.
Again, the rules really are fine. The inconsistency or lack of inforcement is the problem.
Mypoint in case is when Young chopped the arm of his opponent while riding against ISU, & was called for stalling 5s later. Yes, he should have gone for the TF but the official let his opponent lay on his belly the entire match.
Riding time only accumulates after a takedown. Faster stalemates.
I think the rules are fine, officials just need to call stalling more often.
I do think it would be interesting to change riding time to "only accumulate after gaining control due to your own action". As in, get on top because of a takedown or a reversal and riding time accumulates. Start on top because your opponent chose down? No riding time accumulates.
I'd also like to see a step out rule. Or the current rule of having to call stalling if they go out of bounds unless there's action should be changed to, someone has to be called for stalling any time action goes out of bounds, no matter what. Even if it has to be a double stall call.
I do think it would be interesting to change riding time to "only accumulate after gaining control due to your own action". As in, get on top because of a takedown or a reversal and riding time accumulates. Start on top because your opponent chose down? No riding time accumulates.
I'd also like to see a step out rule. Or the current rule of having to call stalling if they go out of bounds unless there's action should be changed to, someone has to be called for stalling any time action goes out of bounds, no matter what. Even if it has to be a double stall call.
I started this idea in the other thread, but since we’re all talking here now…
When the ride time clock hits 1 minute: blow the whistle, award a ride point, restart neutral, and restart the ride time clock.
This keeps the integrity of folk style and those that like to see control and mat wrestling.
A wrestler can still choose down in the 2nd and 3rd period - they just better get out in under a minute.
A tough rider would have a minute to turn for back points. (or potentially more, if the ride time favored the opponent)
A dominate wrestler could have an 8-0 lead after the first period on 3 take downs; or the 2-for-1 strategy is still in play with a “broken” wrestler.
This rule is very easy to explain to a newcomer to the sport and doesn’t require referee subjectivity to enforce.
…and yes, you can still call stalling on the top or bottom wrestler.
When the ride time clock hits 1 minute: blow the whistle, award a ride point, restart neutral, and restart the ride time clock.
This keeps the integrity of folk style and those that like to see control and mat wrestling.
A wrestler can still choose down in the 2nd and 3rd period - they just better get out in under a minute.
A tough rider would have a minute to turn for back points. (or potentially more, if the ride time favored the opponent)
A dominate wrestler could have an 8-0 lead after the first period on 3 take downs; or the 2-for-1 strategy is still in play with a “broken” wrestler.
This rule is very easy to explain to a newcomer to the sport and doesn’t require referee subjectivity to enforce.
…and yes, you can still call stalling on the top or bottom wrestler.
Here's the problem with that, we see guys ride in the 3rd period now, when they already have riding time locked up. They're not doing it for the point, their doing it to minimize getting scored on. If they can lay on a guy for an extra 40 seconds, they can't be scored on. How many matches end with 1 guy well over 1 minute, sometimes over 2 minutes. Taking away the point is not going to solve that issue.
I like active riding, I like the point, it shows you can control, I just don't like the amount of passivity that's allowed in this position. Call Stalemate, reset them,if nothings happening. If still nothing happens, put them on their feet.
My list of things to improve folk-style...
1) Push out point
2) 30 seconds to do something after stall warning or it's a passivity point. And give clear guidelines when to give that warning.
1) Push out point
2) 30 seconds to do something after stall warning or it's a passivity point. And give clear guidelines when to give that warning.
Truth. Most of the recommendations in this thread are over complicated. This is simple and addresses known issues. Won't solve them 100% but it's a step in the right direction. Also makes scorekeeping and clock work simpler.
Oh, and refs can still call stalling more aggressively. Parallel ride a guy just to ride? Light him up. Make it zero incentive to ride once you've removed the escape point and riding time point. They'll have no choice but to work for turns.
Those wanting to get rid of riding time have totally whiffed on what the problem really is.
Take away riding time and watch stalling on bottom go up. You see it in HS matches all the time. Kid sits on bottom not really trying to get away. Staying active enough to not get called but not risking much either. With short time suddenly tries to score. Riding time makes getting out more of a priority. The 4 point NF increased the amounts of turns.
