Good news on Hockaday; nothing on Fant or IKM yet

[nu2u]

but did he hit him in the chest or did he hit him shoulder/higher?

Jones plays hard. i love it. but sometimes he does not play smart, which is why he lost his job to Hockaday in game 1. Correct?

maybe the collision was unavoidable. maybe the coaches have nothing to say on this play. they will figure that out with film study. I trust Seth Wallace & KF, so who cares what we arm chair QBs think.

Your trying too hard to find justification for the targeting call, I think. And yes it was a smart play because he hit the receiver (legally IMO) where the ball was (high chest/shoulder area) before the pass was fully controlled thereby causing an incompletion.

 

[Franisdaman]

Your trying too hard to find justification for the targeting call, I think. And yes it was a smart play because he hit the receiver (legally IMO) where the ball was (high chest/shoulder area) before the pass was fully controlled thereby causing an incompletion.

i think the main take away is that none of us is for sure what the hell targeting is; see my post regarding what Leistikow wrote; there should not be so much gray area; it is either targeting or it is not

i think the hit was legal; i guess i don't know what the hell targeting is

Questions for everyone:

*what did Jones do that made it targeting?
* why do the officials think it was targeting?
* what are we missing?
* why are the officials "right," and we are wrong?
* what can the players/coaches learn from this, if anything?

 

[H4wkfan4life]

has anyone said to not play 100%?

that is basically where we are headed.
If I was playing football these days, I'd say screw playing defense

 

[H4wkfan4life]

Your trying too hard to find justification for the targeting call, I think. And yes it was a smart play because he hit the receiver (legally IMO) where the ball was (high chest/shoulder area) before the pass was fully controlled thereby causing an incompletion.

The rule needs to be about intent and/or negligence if they are gonna throw kids out of games!
That is the real issue with this nonsense! Of course that is pretty subjective, but when in doubt let the kid play. I say that when I am watching the hawks or anyone else.

 

[LaQuintaHawkeye]

The Big Ten at its gutless best.

Not quite to the level of it's non-stance on PedSU and MisogynySU.

 

[JStandefer]

Its how he plays full out. Plus he's trying to win back that job. Kind of silly to blame the guy for playing hard.......

Plus if you ease up, you are more likely to get hurt yourself

 

[pacnorthhawkeye]

Just watched the second half this morning and the play right after jones’ hit was worse imo....stone took an elbow to the head after the pick....it was almost a Jon bones jones like elbow that didn’t get called. There’s no way nobody saw it....just be friggin consistent.

 

[millhawk]

Mark Emmert of the Register made a good point--the game was decided and there was little time left on the game clock. Why go for such a high intensity hit?

Because he's a football player and he's fighting for playing time. Stupid point by him. He didn't target plain and simple it was as bad a call as the one on Clay Matthews in the pros. How many times have we heard that these players need to lower their targets and can't use the helmet. Well he hit him shoulder height and he used his shoulder pad. Stupid call and gutless by the replay person.

 

[citizenHawk]

Looking at this a few more times, it's a great play on Amani's part. He is where he needs to be at the exact time he needs to be there. His head is clearly visible off the shoulder of the receiver, and given the speed of the contact, if he makes this hit any lower (gut, hips, legs) I don't think that receiver gets back up. *Truly, taking a direct hit like that in the gut or balls would be a killer.

The only solution to avoid this type of football play is to discontinue passing into the center of the field, or make it illegal, and that just isn't likely to happen. Everyone is left to be frustrated with the call, but I'm sure the coaches are happy with Amani's work on the play. It's going to be a shame if it has a large impact on this week's game.

 

[H4wkfan4life]

I couldn't help but laugh with him as he laughed his way to the locker room.
Typically I'd be pissed if a player was laughing after a penalty, but that's about all he can do. I thought he handled it really well, whatever that is worth

 

[Ferentzforever]

Flags will be placed on receivers. instead of tackle

 

[LetsGoHawks83]

If it is true that the B1G doesn't review plays during the week and possibly reverse OR apply suspensions from plays, then that is rediculous. Just like replay, use the tools at hand to get the call RIGHT or attempt to get it right. So use the week after an ejection to review that ejection and suspension.

 

[unoHawkeye]

Mark Emmert of the Register made a good point--the game was decided and there was little time left on the game clock. Why go for such a high intensity hit?

It was a clean hit so the “intensity” level is irrelevant. Not a good point

 

[chuck285]

I get it.

But shouldn't he keep his head up and aim for the waist AND still hit hard?

Sure, come in with bad intentions but DON'T lose your technique. You have to tackle at the waist or lower, otherwise you are just asking for a ref to throw a flag..

And you should kiss your wife and kids good-bye every day. In a perfect world

 

[Franisdaman]

It was a clean hit so the “intensity” level is irrelevant. Not a good point

Because he's a football player and he's fighting for playing time. Stupid point by him. He didn't target plain and simple it was as bad a call as the one on Clay Matthews in the pros. How many times have we heard that these players need to lower their targets and can't use the helmet. Well he hit him shoulder height and he used his shoulder pad. Stupid call and gutless by the replay person.

Its how he plays full out. Plus he's trying to win back that job. Kind of silly to blame the guy for playing hard.......

Mark Emmert is wrong. Players get hurt when they go less than 100%. The only thing Amani Jones is guilty of is making a great play.

This a joke, right? I can't believe a reporter wrote anything that naive.

Jones is a high intensity guy. Anything less would be him not going 100%. Not to mention he's trying to win that starting Mike job back, and he's going to do what he can to impress the coaches. If he had taken the guys head off, (like the Sandeman hit against MSU), then I would have had an issue with that type of play.

I hear what you're saying, but I disagree. Hitting the guy in the chest (where the ball is) IS correct technique.

And bad intentions are part of the game. A part of the game that's going to be very difficult to legislate away.

And if Mark Emmert has a beef with anyone, it should be with PJ Fleck. The game was over. He's putting players on both teams at risk by trying to score to cheap points at the end of the game when the outcome is decided.

It was unavoidable by Jones. He was going full speed and I actually think he did a helluva job of not targeting on the play

Also, "dialing it down" is a good way to get hurt yourself.

I agree with pretty much everyone that the B1G having a "no appeals" policy on targeting calls is just plain cowardly. Replay officials need to make a call on the spot the best they can in reasonable time during a game, but there is absolutely no reason at all that the play can't be broken down later on in a more controlled environment to determine if a student-athlete should or should not receive a suspension. Absolute, shameful B.S.

Because he is a football player and that is what football players are supposed to do. This isn't cheerleading.

Really Mark Emmert? If we know one thing the game is never really over until its over. I recall a Northwestern game many years back where there was about a minute or a little more on the clock and we were up 2 scores.... to make a long story short we lost that game, so don’t tell me a game is essentially over when it’s not, keep playing football until the clock reads zero.

7

I don't agree with Emmert. I don't think you can just not play at full speed because the game is in hand.

When you are making a play at full speed, you aren't dialing the volume up or down. The intent is to break up the pass and separate the receiver from the ball. In that area of the field, if the defender is there, the receiver is going to take a direct hit. Not Amani's fault he's a linebacker prepared to make that separation.

And if they want to make it a roughing call after review, based on "new expectations," that might be acceptable. But to call that hit "targeting" is to say that Amani made that hit with dirty intention, which is the kind of hit that may merit the suspension rule. I think replay shows that isn't the case here. The way these things are being enforced needs some tweaking.

I went back and listened to the 25 minute post game podcast. I wanted to make sure I quoted Mark Emmert of the Des Moines Register fairly. What follows is what Emmert said. As you can see, I also included how Chad Leistikow (the Register columnist) responded.

Thoughts to what follows?

What Emmert said:

"Amani Jones comes in and plays very well and then the final minute of the game, I mean you can question the official's judgment, but I think that's a very aggressive play for him to make in a game you already have won (Chad Leistikow agrees with a "mmm, hmmm."). The price he has to pay is he got ejected from this game (Minnesota) & he'll miss the first half at Indiana....It was a really, really hard hit and it did look like it was his shoulder, not his head, that he led with, but like I said, why even take that chance in the last minute of a game you've got won (Chad, again, agrees and responds with "right.")?"

 

[iahawks10]

I don’t agree with the call, but to answer Fran’s question of what they could have seen to uphold.

It looks like Jones does lead with the crown making some (little) contact with the WR’s right shoulder pad. That would be covered under targeting.

The brunt of the contact comes from Jones’ right shoulder into the WR’s chest, which is why I don’t agree with the call.

It looked and sounded way worse than it actually was.

 

[Rifler]

It's basically impossible to appeal a targeting call,... This is a pretty high profile issue and the Big Ten is willing to penalize 120% of all targeting infractions in order to error on the side of player safety. Allowing any appeal would simply encourage game day officials to second guess a decision and that is not what the conference is looking for right now....

 

[ichawk24]

This is a national rule, not a Big Ten rule. I don't even know if the rules would allow the B1G to review and suspend penalties.

 

[ICParrent]

I feel sorry for the opposition when Amani returns to the field in the 3rd quarter Saturday.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

Mark Emmert of the Register made a good point--the game was decided and there was little time left on the game clock. Why go for such a high intensity hit?

I totally disagree with Emmert on this then. If the players are going to be obligated to "regulate" themselves to such an extent then they ought to switch to flag football once one team gets ahead by "x" points.

Jones' hit was clean...intense, but clean. The targeting call was completely bogus.

 

[eddiepope5]

I totally disagree with Emmert on this then. If the players are going to be obligated to "regulate" themselves to such an extent then they ought to switch to flag football once one team gets ahead by "x" points.

Jones' hit was clean...intense, but clean. The targeting call was completely bogus.

I agree with this. Better yet, why would you ever want a guy to regulate himself on the field ever? This is a guy who was the starting MLB to start the season and ended up getting outplayed by Hockaday. I want him busting his butt on every play to prove that he is in fact the guy who should be starting. If we are expecting him to regulate himself, then the coaches should have someone else in there at that point in the game.

 

[anon_2zMXH429BhxV1Npk]

If you are in a game, whether it's the start, close late, or a blow out, and you aren't playing with 100% effort you shouldn't be on the field.

Anyone making a point that Jones was trying too hard at that point shouldn't be commenting on sports, let alone football. It's the same people who bitch about running up the score when a team is just running the ball and happens to score. If Minnesota wanted to keep trying and their QB left their WR hanging over the middle, that's on the QB not Jones.

 

[mazda1]

Looking at the 2 deeps Jones is a slash with D. Doyle as the back up. Kirk may not have been as impressed with the laughter as some on this board.

The 3rd quarter will be an interesting watch. I'd expect Jones, but you never know.

 

[ffjoey44]

Mark Emmert of the Register made a good point--the game was decided and there was little time left on the game clock. Why go for such a high intensity hit?

That’s a terrible point! It was a clean hit, no reason not to make that hit

 

[David1979]

Sounds like Fant and IKM questionable and won't know until Friday whether they will be cleared. Reports it is probably concussion protocol.

 

[ichawk24]

Fant should be playing less, he is too fragile.

 

[Rifler]

This is a national rule, not a Big Ten rule. I don't even know if the rules would allow the B1G to review and suspend penalties.

It is an NCAA rule, but every conference is allowed to monitor the officiating that occurs within their jurisdiction.....

 

[TJHawkeye]

Thay are certainly trying turn football into soccer. Minimize contact. Bob Sanders and Matt Roth would not get past one game in the current environment.

 

[HawkIDrummer]

Agree that the targeting call on Jones was bad, and that there could have been a case for one on Easley. However, when IKM got hit in the head he was not a "defenseless" player, so even though there was helmet to helmet contact I believe the correct call is that there's no targeting.

Defenseless player is not a requirement for targeting. Leading with the head at the head...is enough.

 

[icantfindausernamethatisntused]

Defenseless player is not a requirement for targeting. Leading with the head at the head...is enough.

You're right. There are two types of targeting fouls, and only one requires there to be a defenseless player.

Targeting and Making Forcible Contact With the Crown of the Helmet ARTICLE 3. No player shall target and make forcible contact against an opponent with the crown of his helmet. This foul requires that there be at least one indicator of targeting (See Note 1 below). When in question, it is a foul. (Rule 9-6) (A.R. 9-1-3-I)

Targeting and Making Forcible Contact to Head or Neck Area of a Defenseless Player ARTICLE 4. No player shall target and make forcible contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent (See Note 2 below) with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow or shoulder. This foul requires that there be at least one indicator of targeting (See Note 1 below). When in question, it is a foul (Rules 2-27-14 and 9-6). (A.R. 9-1-4-I-VI)

Note 1: “Targeting” means that a player takes aim at an opponent for purposes of attacking with forcible contact that goes beyond making a legal tackle or a legal block or playing the ball. Some indicators of targeting include but are not limited to:​

• • Launch—a player leaving his feet to attack an opponent by an upward and forward thrust of the body to make forcible contact in the head or neck area
  • A crouch followed by an upward and forward thrust to attack with forcible contact at the head or neck area, even though one or both feet are still on the ground
  • Leading with helmet, shoulder, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack with forcible contact at the head or neck area • Lowering the head before attacking by initiating forcible contact with the crown of the helmet

Note 2: Defenseless player (Rule 2-27-14). Examples of defenseless players include but are not limited to: • A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass.​

• • A receiver attempting to catch a forward pass or in position to receive a backward pass, or one who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier.
  • A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball, or during the kick or the return.
  • A kick returner attempting to catch or recover a kick, or one who has completed a catch or recovery and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier..
  • A player on the ground.
  • A player obviously out of the play.
  • A player who receives a blind-side block.
  • A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped.
  • A quarterback any time after a change of possession
  • A ball carrier who has obviously given himself up and is sliding feet-first

 

[Franisdaman]

Watch this. The media asks good questions.

Bottom line:
* Coaches don't think Jones did anything wrong
* Gervase says what we all know; if you don't play 100 percent, you are more prone to injure yourself
* Coaches simply reminded the players to lead with your shoulder and not your head.

The video:

https://www.hawkcentral.com/videos/...-agree-targeting-call-amani-jones/1578427002/

 

[herk90]

Mark Emmert of the Register made a good point--the game was decided and there was little time left on the game clock. Why go for such a high intensity hit?

What? That might be the dumbest thing written ever. You play full speed or you get injured or you don’t play anymore.

 

[Colorado_Hawk]

I thought it was targeting. He saw him sitting up on a tee and completely destroyed him. Unnecessary force for sure. That used to be encouraged but you just can’t do that stuff anymore. If you want to still be watching football in 10 years you will have to accept that this is now targeting.

With these rules Bob Sanders would have been kicked out of every game. It takes away some joy on our end but it keeps guys safe and preserves the game.

 

[hawkster03]

Just heard on the radio that Hockaday is OUT.

 

[Franisdaman]

I totally disagree with Emmert on this then. If the players are going to be obligated to "regulate" themselves to such an extent then they ought to switch to flag football once one team gets ahead by "x" points.

Jones' hit was clean...intense, but clean. The targeting call was completely bogus.

I agree with this. Better yet, why would you ever want a guy to regulate himself on the field ever? This is a guy who was the starting MLB to start the season and ended up getting outplayed by Hockaday. I want him busting his butt on every play to prove that he is in fact the guy who should be starting. If we are expecting him to regulate himself, then the coaches should have someone else in there at that point in the game.

If you are in a game, whether it's the start, close late, or a blow out, and you aren't playing with 100% effort you shouldn't be on the field.

Anyone making a point that Jones was trying too hard at that point shouldn't be commenting on sports, let alone football. It's the same people who bitch about running up the score when a team is just running the ball and happens to score. If Minnesota wanted to keep trying and their QB left their WR hanging over the middle, that's on the QB not Jones.

That’s a terrible point! It was a clean hit, no reason not to make that hit

What? That might be the dumbest thing written ever. You play full speed or you get injured or you don’t play anymore.

I went back and listened to the HawkCentral postgame podcast. What follows is exactly what Emmert said (he did not write it). As you can see, Chad Leistikow (the Register columnist) agreed with him.

What Emmert said:

"Amani Jones comes in and plays very well and then the final minute of the game, I mean you can question the official's judgment, but I think that's a very aggressive play for him to make in a game you already have won (Chad Leistikow agrees with a "mmm, hmmm."). The price he has to pay is he got ejected from this game (Minnesota) & he'll miss the first half at Indiana....It was a really, really hard hit and it did look like it was his shoulder, not his head, that he led with, but like I said, why even take that chance in the last minute of a game you've got won (Chad, again, agrees and responds with "right.")?"