Inserting Tony instead of Joe into the lineup...
- Thread starter BBHawk
- Start date
I think it was worth it even though the loss of Joe T pains me.
It will become more apparent this year whether Perkins taking Joe T's minutes was the catalyst for the run or whether it was simply moving JBo to the point.
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100% yes. The additional brand reputation boost we got from that B10 run was very helpful to the program, and the team was better with that lineup.
Had Joe T kept starting, we likely would not have had as good of a B10 Tournament seed nor would we be playing as well so likely a 2nd round exist perhaps. On top of that, Joe T may have transferred anyway if/when Bowen starts taking minutes away. Bowen has the higher upside and I think would have started at some point this season even if Joe T was here.
Had Joe T kept starting, we likely would not have had as good of a B10 Tournament seed nor would we be playing as well so likely a 2nd round exist perhaps. On top of that, Joe T may have transferred anyway if/when Bowen starts taking minutes away. Bowen has the higher upside and I think would have started at some point this season even if Joe T was here.
I'm not sure I understand the premise of the question. Perkins didn't replace JoeT. Perkins replaced Jbo at the 2 and Jbo took the point from Joe. There was never a spot for Joe at the 2. This year's point guard play will determine whether it was worth it or not.
Wut? Tony replaced bohannon at the 2 and bohannon replaced Joe as point guard. Tony was never the PG.
He didn't say he replaced him as the point guard. He said he replaced him in the starting lineup which he did. Joe T went to the bench and Tony P started. The other 4 starters remained the same thus he is correct in saying he replaced him the starting lineup.
Semantics. Tony could have been inserted as the 2 guard without removing Joe at the point. Moving Jbo to the point is what effectively removed Joe, who is a true point guard from the lineup.
Nothing against Joe T. but he's the definition of a replacement level player. The lineup last year at the end of the season was easily the best lineup. You play to win the game, especially when you have a player like Keegan on the roster who you're going to lose after the season.
Yes for sure, and I was/am a big fan of Joe T. Having two 6'0 or so starting guards each with different limitations wasn't working. Bohannon was not real good at the 2 and it wasn't so much Joe lost the job because he failed, it was more the combination without him starting was just better.
As was just mentioned Joe T is replacement level. Hard working, easy to root for, talented in some areas, but he did have lots of chances in his 3 years and was mostly just ok.
As was just mentioned Joe T is replacement level. Hard working, easy to root for, talented in some areas, but he did have lots of chances in his 3 years and was mostly just ok.
This is good discussion....the one thing that I think there is consensus on is that it was a good move by Fran. It worked and resulted in a very strong stretch to end the season...
Which brings us to the next logical step....both JBO and Joe T are gone, so I don't know that this year will be an indicating factor on either of them and the effect the change had on the end of the season...to me, the real interest is for this next year:
Who mans the PG and how does the team perform with whoever is in charge? What type of performance do we need from them for the team to be successful?
Which brings us to the next logical step....both JBO and Joe T are gone, so I don't know that this year will be an indicating factor on either of them and the effect the change had on the end of the season...to me, the real interest is for this next year:
Who mans the PG and how does the team perform with whoever is in charge? What type of performance do we need from them for the team to be successful?
I don't generally pull for a Hawk that transfers unless they have a good reason (such as Nunge), but I will hope that Joe finds happiness at West Virginia and has a good year.
Yes. I think JoeT had reached his ceiling at Iowa- what we saw is what we were gonna get. I also think that Tony has a much higher ceiling, and that run of games in the second half of the year will pay many dividends in the next 2 years. I know they play different positions, but the lineup including TonyP > the lineup including JoeT.
I like the point about Tony still having a higher ceiling that he can get to.....he clearly has good size for a guard and really good ups for a guard....where he can improve even more is in those guard type skills.
Just imagine Tony as a really good ball handler that could repeatedly get to the basket. With his athleticism he could finish at the rim very effectively....then if he continues to improve his outside shot and his passing....those skills combined with his athleticism...wow.
In effect Tony replaced Joe as a starter. That was my question was based on, not who played point. No other premise is even applicable considering what I am asking.
Not really. That lineup didn't send Iowa on the run they had. I can't imagine it would have, either.
What do you mean "not really". It's irrelevant. Nobody really knows what would have happened and the fact of the matter is Tony didn't replace Joe at the point. Jbo did. End of story.
It hurt losing Joe T. I loved watching him play with all out hustle all the time. Originally, I was upset that Bohannon continued to start and Joe went to the bench. I wanted to see Joe and Tony play together with Ulis getting more time and Bohannon come off the bench with Kris as the scorers in the second group (with Keegan still on the floor).
As it was, Fran's move worked to win the Big Ten Tournament. Still wish we had Joe but I hope Ulis can keep brining that defensive intensity and free throw shooting into clutch spots of the game.
As it was, Fran's move worked to win the Big Ten Tournament. Still wish we had Joe but I hope Ulis can keep brining that defensive intensity and free throw shooting into clutch spots of the game.
Whatever. You can't change the facts. Tony obviously fit the lineup better. Joe didn't.
I'm sure I'm following. Was it worth it to put a starting line-up together that delivered an 8-2 record at the possible expense of losing a guy that didn't play well enough to keep a spot?
Of course it was. How can it even be a question?
At the time Fran made the move, I didn't like it. I still thought JoeT was overall our best PG, despite his consistent inconsistency. I also liked Tony's energy off the bench. Clearly, I was wrong. Tony brought some additional dimensions, that the combo of JoeT and JBo couldn't bring, like rebounding and ability to guard a bigger guard. HIs aggressiveness and outside shooting were better than I ever expected, and I hope that continues.
I would feel more comfortable about PG if JoeT were back, but if Bowen is as good as many think he will be, it might just clear the way to him getting big minutes early. Ulis can play, but he needs to cut loose a little more on the offensive end, assuming it is in him. Hawks should be better than they have been in a long time defensively on the perimeter. The overall defense would sure get a boost if Mulvey took a big step forward to help guard the basket...
I would feel more comfortable about PG if JoeT were back, but if Bowen is as good as many think he will be, it might just clear the way to him getting big minutes early. Ulis can play, but he needs to cut loose a little more on the offensive end, assuming it is in him. Hawks should be better than they have been in a long time defensively on the perimeter. The overall defense would sure get a boost if Mulvey took a big step forward to help guard the basket...
Every player wants more floor time, even the ones that are playing nearly the entire game. I think McCaffery and Joe had a frank talk about where he was on the PG list and Joe felt his minutes would be even more diminished. I pull for him because I thought he was a great Hawk while here. Always played hard, if not always under control, and was an asset on the bench, always positive.
Joe T will be missed, his intensity at the defensive end was key to Iowa winning the BTT. I wish he would have finished his career at Iowa and been able to accept the complementary role he filled so very well... BUT I also know that Joe has higher aspirations and wants to see/know what could he be given more opportunity to be "the man" at PG
I will certainly be rooting for him at West Virginia this year.
I will certainly be rooting for him at West Virginia this year.
Honestly they were pretty close. I would have but it's not like it was way out of line.
This wasn’t Tony for Joe; it was two starters being replaced. When the switch to Perkins was made JBo was struggling to shoot but was also struggling to defend B1G 2 guards. JBo’s minutes at the 2 needed a big adjustment. Perkins starting was common sense.
But then JBo over Joe T at PG, No one saw coming. Fran rolled the dice on JBo.
JBo had a little resurgence, but the big difference was Perkins at the 2.
But then JBo over Joe T at PG, No one saw coming. Fran rolled the dice on JBo.
JBo had a little resurgence, but the big difference was Perkins at the 2.
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I tend to think it was mostly Keegan carrying the team either way with some excellent play from Kris on occasion.
I don't think who else was playing mattered all that much.
It was though. Putting a player (JBo) "back" into the position that they've been successfully playing their career is a bold move!? Fran knew what he had with JBo at point and took the ball from Joe to put JBo back in that role because of the points you made. Tony > Joe was the switch that resulted and and it paid off imo. I'm really looking forward to watching the Hawks this season and wish luck to Joe with his opportunity in WV.
Their minutes per game from Feb 6 (OP’s initial post) on are not far off. Either was their production, especially in the post season. This is even with Patrick missing two games with an injury late in the reg season.
Of course starting Kris over Patrick at the 3 means more minutes for Mulvey and/Josh O since we’re basically moving Kris from the 5 to the 3 without a trusted reserve for Rebraca. Makes sense.
You don’t think a guy who averaged 12.8 ppg over this stretch, set Iowa’s 3 pt fgs made in a single game, and hit a buzzer beater for a win to send Iowa to the BTT finals mattered all that much?
Keegan carried the team absolutely. There were four other guys who definitely mattered. Kris, JBo, Perkins and Patrick all mattered. When any two of these guys were on along with Keegan, Iowa could have played with any team in the country. Iowa doesn’t finish 12-3 without Patrick, Perkins, JBo, and Kris.
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Sorry not semantics. Say a starter was benched, and another person was put in the starting lineup. The position they play is irrelevant. If a team takes out their center and moves their power forward into the position of the center and brings in another power forward, the person that was replaced is not the power forward. It is the center.
Keegan was incredible almost every game, on both ends. Still, I agree with your overall point that it is not a 1 on 5 game. I think you can't just single out five guys either. In particular, saying Rebraca didn't matter overlooks what he did for the team. He definitely gets the award for the most underappreciated player on the team. If he isn't there, how do they fill 40 min at center? Minutes by JoeT, Ulis and Sandfort also mattered.
Correct. I don't think there was a significant difference overall between JBo and Toussaint. One was bad offensively, one bad defensively.
I think it comes out pretty much the same either way.
Not playing them at the same time was probably more significant than who was actually on the floor.
Iowas fortunes were directly correlated to whether or not Keegan was in foul trouble.
Jordan outplayed Joe after the change AINEC. Look at the +-s.
I think my overall point was that is what made this team so good and dangerous down the stretch. They had a clear super star, but they had 4 other guys who could go off on any given night too. When one had a bad night, you’d expect a different guy to be there to pick up the slack. Then like you said, another four guys who were important as well. Rebraca may be one of the most important guys as well. He was fairly consistent and did what he was asked to do. The lack of depth at the 5 was huge in Rebraca’s role on the team.
I know Kris is a fan favorite and I can’t wait to see what he’s going to do next year. Kris had off games last year, probably as much or more than he had good games. It’s just the truth. Some of it was playing out of position, some of it was lack of consistency. On the flip side, Kris came in at times and played beyond his normal average too. A few times when Keegan was struggling (double teamed) or in foul trouble. This is the definition of a team, picking guys up when they’re not at their best.
Patrick also had a few games where he played very well down the stretch. I really don’t think some people appreciate what he did. At least the post I responded to didn’t seem to. The BTT IU game was definitely one. Also in that game was Keegan (of course) and JBo. If you go back and watch it, just to see how much IU dislikes JBo for what he’s done to them in his career. What’s JBo do? Hits a couple of huge three’s to get Iowa back from down 10 and nails a 40’er to win it. Like it was scripted. I said it at the end of last year thinking JBo was done then. JBo did a lot of things that I think Iowa will miss not having around. After seeing how this last year played out, I believe that statement even more today.
It wasn’t just Keegan and any other four guys on the roster though like RockandRoll believes.
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