Pretty amazing that we've had Megan Gustafson, Luka Garza, Keegan Murray, and Caitlin Clark in the past 5 years. It must be the only time the two Iowa hoops programs have had four serious NPOY candidates in a 5 year span.
Is Clark the greatest Hawkeye of all time?
- Thread starter TylerJ84
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She's perhaps the most prominent national athlete in Iowa history. I understand wrestling is big in Iowa, but 99.9% of the casual college sports fan couldn't name a single one. Caitlin Clark gets national mentions almost weekly on not only the B1G network, but on national media. No other Iowa athlete in the last 40 years has achieved that level of notoriety that I can recall. Keegan and Garza would probably be second and 3rd which is remarkable.
there are way more bball players and teams than wrestlers. plus wrestlers have ten weight classes. not one
Clark is literally transcendent compared to her peers, and I don’t think that’s hyperbole. As good as all of the other athletes named in this thread have been, I’m not sure any can make that same claim - including Lee and Kinnick. Lee is probably close but even his level of greatness isn’t reaching many people not directly connected to wrestling. Clark is captivating the nation - from New York to the Midwest to California.
Spencer is known well beyond wrestling. He’s absolutely a transcendent talent.
He’s famous in Russia, for crying out loud. They call him “Little Sadulaev”, comparing him to the Russian wrestler who is currently the best pound-for-pound wrestler in the world on the senior freestyle level.
If his knees hold up, he’s likely to accomplish things on the international level that no Hawkeye has done and that very few Americans have done. No doubt a transcendent talent.
Not sure how you compare across sports and generations, but she is sure on a short list. If she can lead Iowa to the Final Four or win it all, it would be hard to argue against it.
Ok best at 125...You're obviously a wrestling person per avatar but if you have to resort to Russia because few non wrestling fan Americans know who he is that isn't a great argument. What percentage of men in the US are small enough to even make 125....like 5 pct? And then what percent of the overall population gets into wrestling? It's small. Quick google search says there are 78 D1 wrestling programs and 358/350 men's and women's D1 bastketball teams.
He's incredible and GOAT Hawkeye wrestler but I haven't seen one highlight of him or even heard him mentioned on any of the major national sports networks outside of BTN.
That's far from the case with CC. I've seen them lead off Sportscenter with her highlights twice and Iowa highlights are shown regularly because of her. Team sports that have massive amounts of participants and big chunks of the population are fans are just different. No disrespect to Spencer
Nope. He might have great talent. He might be the best ever. Nobody outside of wrestling knows who he is. It doesn’t minimize who he is or what he's done. That's just a fact. Tell me the name of who you think the greatest college volleyball player is today. I'll wait. Never heard of the Russian guy you mentioned BTW. Nobody outside of wrestling has heard of him either.
How many other Iowa athletes have won the Sullivan award, besides Spencer Lee, for the nation's best amateur athlete, regardless of sport?
You're ignorant, too. Just because you haven't seen a highlight means zero. What does that have to do with being the greatest?
What are you talking about? What percentage of the population is as tall as Luka Garza? How many Americans have Jack Campbell's height and physique? It's irrelevant.
I didn’t have to resort to mentioning Russia. Spencer has shown up plenty on ESPN over the years. I was pointing out that he’s known internationally, and well beyond Russia. It just so happens that Russia is historically the most dominant country where international wrestling is concerned.
That said, this isn’t a discussion of who’s more well-known; it’s a discussion of who’s the best Hawkeye ever. It was mentioned that Spencer isn’t a transcendent athlete like Caitlin is; I disagree strongly with that. If he wins his 4th national title in dominant fashion as we expect he will, it will be hard to argue against him. And if he goes on to have the international success we expect he’ll have, it will become even harder.
I certainly have nothing against Caitlin. She’s phenomenal. Heck — she grew up just down the street from us and we know her family. Few people on the planet are supporting her more than we are. I’m just bringing some info to the discussion about Spencer that is lacking on this board and pointing out that he’s a truly a phenomenal talent in his own right, the likes of which we may never again see at Iowa.
As for his size, etc., that’s basically irrelevant. @LIV4GOD makes excellent points above.
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Your own lack of knowledge about a given sport doesn’t necessarily extrapolate to the sports world as a whole. Spencer is a celebrity in his own right and is known to many fans outside of wrestling. Sure, basketball is bigger in the US (wrestling is as big or bigger in many Eastern European countries, Russia, Iran, etc. — I guarantee Spencer is far more known over there than Caitlin). It stands to reason that Caitlin is in the US sports media more than Spencer.
That said, we’re talking about who’s the greatest — not who’s the most famous. A very compelling argument can be made for Spencer, and he’s just getting started.
See @LIV4GOD posts above — excellent points.
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He has more Twitter followers than Clark does…
Opinions obviously depend on the sports you watch or are interested in, which is why there is no clear answer.
Clark and Lee are both incredible at what they do, and almost unanimously considered the best in their sport, maybe of all time.
Clark and Lee are both incredible at what they do, and almost unanimously considered the best in their sport, maybe of all time.
Pretty hard to pick the greatest - but by the time she leaves she will certainly be on the Mt. Rushmore of the greats. I actually believe there are two of them on campus right now.
While much of what you say may be true, you are also assuming the casual college sports fan cares about basketball, let alone the women's game. Yes, far more than wrestling. But the question was greatest - not the most known or popular.
In today’s vernacular, is there a difference? I agree there is....but what I witness when I look around, it is almost like the two words are synonymous.
Would you say Spencer would "walk around" at 145-150 when not making sure he cuts and dehydrates to stay at 125? Then say he decides to just be a normal person - maybe 155-160 or so? Plenty of the population around that weight. Maybe I'm off a bit but I think I made my point because most non-wrestlers don't have a clue what it means to cut weight at the higher levels of competition.
I believe there is because popularity is mainly subjective, while success or greatness in a given area/sport is observable and mainly objective.
Here’s an interesting slant to the Clark vs Lee debate. Which sport - women’s college basketball or college wrestling - is more popular nationwide? I’m personally not real interested in what is popular internationally…we aren’t debating soccer here.
It’s not about fame for fame’s sake, but I do think it’s about ability to captivate an audience and “awe” because of one’s greatness that creates that fame. If we were talking about an amazing talent that was a bowler, for example, he/she wouldn’t be in the conversation. But we’re talking about two major sports - albeit second tier to football and men’s basketball.
I personally think women’s basketball is more broadly popular nationally, and Clark’s greatness has reached more casual fans that otherwise would not have ever paid attention to women’s basketball (or wrestling). I also think it might be because women’s basketball has the ability to captivate beyond the male population - bringing in double the opportunity for recognition of the greatness that’s on display - or at least much more so than wrestling. Being so good that you make people care about something that they otherwise would not have cared about is a huge measure of greatness imo.
Curious how others view it?
It’s not about fame for fame’s sake, but I do think it’s about ability to captivate an audience and “awe” because of one’s greatness that creates that fame. If we were talking about an amazing talent that was a bowler, for example, he/she wouldn’t be in the conversation. But we’re talking about two major sports - albeit second tier to football and men’s basketball.
I personally think women’s basketball is more broadly popular nationally, and Clark’s greatness has reached more casual fans that otherwise would not have ever paid attention to women’s basketball (or wrestling). I also think it might be because women’s basketball has the ability to captivate beyond the male population - bringing in double the opportunity for recognition of the greatness that’s on display - or at least much more so than wrestling. Being so good that you make people care about something that they otherwise would not have cared about is a huge measure of greatness imo.
Curious how others view it?
Chuck Long was good, but in my time watching Iowa FB, since mid 1970s, Andre Tippett was the best Iowa FB player. Also few great players before my time.
Living 4 God and coming off as a pompous asshole are though.
What I come off to you is your problem. As you claim, I was just being honest. And this assessment of yours is as inaccurate as your assessment of Spencer.
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I'm sure Liv4God would love to share his invaluable insight with you. Or maybe read you some scripture. Who knows?
Again I will say popularity does not mean greatness. Now if you were to say who has more charisma, I’d go with Clark. The NCAA wrestling finals will sell out a 20,000 seat arena with people coming from all over the country and many still looking for tickets: The women’s final - I’m not so sure the same is true. Unless CC is playing. 😉.
Spencer will go down as the greatest wrestler from arguably the most iconic school for the sport. Both he and CC go on my Mt. Rushmore but he’s number 1.
Connie Hawkins was more spectacular - but Don Nelson had a far more successful career both as a player and coach.
Garza competes against everyone just like every other team sport, not just other big guys. The competition pool isn't even comparable, if you can't comprehend this then you might be a wrestling homer.
They have weight classes for a reason. He would get manhandled if he had to compete against everyone like most sports do. It's just an apples and oranges comparison. Best ever at whipping other 125 lb tiny guys, that's where it ends
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I think Caitlin is further above her peers than Spencer is. That's saying something with the dominance Spencer is exhibiting this year.
Caitlin has athleticism and talent that's not been seen in women's basketball much. I can only think of someone like Cheryl Miller who was that far above her peers in her days.
Women's basketball is also now popular than wrestling so that helps Clark's cause.
Caitlin has athleticism and talent that's not been seen in women's basketball much. I can only think of someone like Cheryl Miller who was that far above her peers in her days.
Women's basketball is also now popular than wrestling so that helps Clark's cause.
Caitlin is a great women's basketball player, but she is not a great "athlete" by any stretch. What she does have, besides her obvious basketball skill set, is a great motor, fitness, and competitive drive. And I am defining athlete in a way most consider an athlete to be and that is the ability to jump and quick twitch type body movement. Remember, Larry Bird was not considered a great athlete even though he could, and did play nearly an entire NBA game with his off hand - just because. I would put her more in that category.
