Is the NCAA still terrified . . .

[HikeNatParks]

. . . of lower division champs? Can’t they reverse the “Haselrig rule” that halted D1 tourney bids to these guys (a common practice prior to Carlton)? Arguing that D2/D3 wrestlers are unfairly fresher in March than D1 counterparts due to easier schedules has grown weak. If worried, set a minimum match count for the highest qualifying sub-D1 rep, working back from the champ until found. If still fearful, have both lower tourneys finish the Sunday prior to D1’s starting, to handicap these “slackers” even more. But honestly, was that the rule’s true reason, or was it simple embarrassment at what an unheralded D2 townie did to D1 opponents for three straight years?
And so what if he did? In a one-on-one sport where crossing divisions was once and rightfully considered acceptable, what’s not to like about having a pigtail bout that delivers a 30+ seed from a Match of Thrones (D2 vs. D3 champs)? Imagine the Rocky/Rudy buzz of excitement sweeping all 20 represented D2 and D3 campuses come March. If the only downside is a potentially embarrassing upset of a higher D1 seed, how clueless of the NCAA not to realize that this, in fact, is the incredible, inspiring, interest-generating upside!
(confessed Lion troll who asked the same thing over there)

 

[SPOONER]

It was a silly rule and it was good they got rid of it.

The D1 championships are for D1 wrestlers. The other divisions have their own championships. The end.

 

[HikeNatParks]

It was a silly rule and it was good they got rid of it.

The D1 championships are for D1 wrestlers. The other divisions have their own championships. The end.

Right. Keep it pure. The mighty D1 doesn’t need to throw crumbs to underlings. For godsakes, they wouldn’t want to have another pesky Haselrig on their hands. I mean, the nerve of that kid with the alcoholic dad and drug addicted mom (who left him at age 5) not getting any D1 interest or scholarship. Who the hell did he think he was to take advantage of a “silly rule” to become the only 6-time college wrestling champ in NCAA history, with just as many D1 golds as any bluechip Penn State or Iowa wrestler? Who needs another story like that, right?

 

[vhsalum]

Right. Keep it pure. The mighty D1 doesn’t need to throw crumbs to underlings. For godsakes, they wouldn’t want to have another pesky Haselrig on their hands. I mean, the nerve of that kid with the alcoholic dad and drug addicted mom (who left him at age 5) not getting any D1 interest or scholarship. Who the hell did he think he was to take advantage of a “silly rule” to become the only 6-time college wrestling champ in NCAA history, with just as many D1 golds as any bluechip Penn State or Iowa wrestler? Who needs another story like that, right?

He has his own story and his own degree - it just doesn't need to be added to the story of Division I.

Without belaboring the point with minutiae - Division II, Division III, NAIA have their own championships with plenty of participation and prestige.

 

[Trapper85]

. . . of lower division champs? Can’t they reverse the “Haselrig rule” that halted D1 tourney bids to these guys (a common practice prior to Carlton)? Arguing that D2/D3 wrestlers are unfairly fresher in March than D1 counterparts due to easier schedules has grown weak. If worried, set a minimum match count for the highest qualifying sub-D1 rep, working back from the champ until found. If still fearful, have both lower tourneys finish the Sunday prior to D1’s starting, to handicap these “slackers” even more. But honestly, was that the rule’s true reason, or was it simple embarrassment at what an unheralded D2 townie did to D1 opponents for three straight years?
And so what if he did? In a one-on-one sport where crossing divisions was once and rightfully considered acceptable, what’s not to like about having a pigtail bout that delivers a 30+ seed from a Match of Thrones (D2 vs. D3 champs)? Imagine the Rocky/Rudy buzz of excitement sweeping all 20 represented D2 and D3 campuses come March. If the only downside is a potentially embarrassing upset of a higher D1 seed, how clueless of the NCAA not to realize that this, in fact, is the incredible, inspiring, interest-generating upside!
(confessed Lion troll who asked the same thing over there)

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it either way, but I agree with you. Let champs from the 'lower' divisions have some kind of 'wrestle-offs' with each other, with the winner getting a shot in a pigtail match for D1. No harm I can see, and might add some excitement from time to time.

 

[SPOONER]

Right. Keep it pure. The mighty D1 doesn’t need to throw crumbs to underlings. For godsakes, they wouldn’t want to have another pesky Haselrig on their hands. I mean, the nerve of that kid with the alcoholic dad and drug addicted mom (who left him at age 5) not getting any D1 interest or scholarship. Who the hell did he think he was to take advantage of a “silly rule” to become the only 6-time college wrestling champ in NCAA history, with just as many D1 golds as any bluechip Penn State or Iowa wrestler? Who needs another story like that, right?

D1 athletes compete for D1 titles. D2 athletes compete for D2 titles. This isn't a tough concept, yet here we are.

With transfer rules and NIL today this is even less of an issue, and it already wasn't really one.

 

[so cal hawkfan]

Right. Keep it pure. The mighty D1 doesn’t need to throw crumbs to underlings. For godsakes, they wouldn’t want to have another pesky Haselrig on their hands. I mean, the nerve of that kid with the alcoholic dad and drug addicted mom (who left him at age 5) not getting any D1 interest or scholarship. Who the hell did he think he was to take advantage of a “silly rule” to become the only 6-time college wrestling champ in NCAA history, with just as many D1 golds as any bluechip Penn State or Iowa wrestler? Who needs another story like that, right?

Why limit it to D-2 / D-3? Throw in Juco kids, NAIA and women’s wrestling too. Now that’s a f*cking party!

 

[OILCHECKER]

Why not let D1 wrestlers compete in D2 and D3 championships? Are the D2/D3 guys afraid of being embarrassed?

 

[TNTwrestle]

. . . of lower division champs? Can’t they reverse the “Haselrig rule” that halted D1 tourney bids to these guys (a common practice prior to Carlton)? Arguing that D2/D3 wrestlers are unfairly fresher in March than D1 counterparts due to easier schedules has grown weak. If worried, set a minimum match count for the highest qualifying sub-D1 rep, working back from the champ until found. If still fearful, have both lower tourneys finish the Sunday prior to D1’s starting, to handicap these “slackers” even more. But honestly, was that the rule’s true reason, or was it simple embarrassment at what an unheralded D2 townie did to D1 opponents for three straight years?
And so what if he did? In a one-on-one sport where crossing divisions was once and rightfully considered acceptable, what’s not to like about having a pigtail bout that delivers a 30+ seed from a Match of Thrones (D2 vs. D3 champs)? Imagine the Rocky/Rudy buzz of excitement sweeping all 20 represented D2 and D3 campuses come March. If the only downside is a potentially embarrassing upset of a higher D1 seed, how clueless of the NCAA not to realize that this, in fact, is the incredible, inspiring, interest-generating upside!
(confessed Lion troll who asked the same thing over there)

I chose to go to UNI back in the day (when they were still D2), partly because you could qualify for D1 by placing high enough at D2 Nationals, and because I had a better chance of being a 4-year starter there (and it was closer to home than WV, which I was considering).
I lobbied for years about the rule change until it was explained to me that it had to do with academic eligibility.
Many lower-division wrestlers couldn't meet academic requirements or make the clearing house to compete in D1, so the NCAA deemed it unfair that they knocked guys who did meet D1 requirements down or off the podium. I wasn't thrilled with that explanation, but it did make a little sense.
Over the years (especially back in the '60s - '80s) there were tons of lower-division guys who did or could have done well at the D1 level. All of the people mentioned in the other thread plus guys like Wade Schalles and many more were contenders (if not champs) at any level. I wish my old brain would bring names to mind, but I remember a guy from Wartburg dominating his way through the UNI Open one year when Iowa, ISU and several other D1 teams had all their starters there. Also, his name just won't come to me, but the kid who couldn't make the grades at Minnesota, but went to Augsburg and became a 4-time undefeated champ. His name is on the tip of my tongue, but just won't come to me. I'm sure someone on this board will know it.

 

[FUMBLE-ROOSKY]

Marcus Levessuer?

 

[Sharky1203]

Marcus Levessuer?

Amazing wrestler but couldn't beat Luke Becker so went to Augsburg instead. But I do think he might have won a D1 Championship or two but would have never won 4.

 

[SPOONER]

Many lower-division wrestlers couldn't meet academic requirements or make the clearing house to compete in D1, so the NCAA deemed it unfair that they knocked guys who did meet D1 requirements down or off the podium. I wasn't thrilled with that explanation, but it did make a little sense.

The above is a real thing. Other than that it's a silly concept overall, of course.

 

[TNTwrestle]

Marcus Levessuer?

That's it. I knew his last name started with an L, just couldn't put it together.

 

[masterhawk74]

The above is a real thing. Other than that it's a silly concept overall, of course.

Your staunch positions with zero substance is always what makes you such a valuable contributor to this board.

 

[SPOONER]

Your staunch positions with zero substance is always what makes you such a valuable contributor to this board.

Yeah...I think D1 wrestlers should wrestle in D1 tournaments as does almost everyone else...but I have no substance.

Gotcha.

 

[Sdwrestler_20]

Amazing wrestler but couldn't beat Luke Becker so went to Augsburg instead. But I do think he might have won a D1 Championship or two but would have never won 4.

According to him he was beating Becker and was not given the opportunity to start. Take it for what it is worth..

 

[12tdsaw]

damm spooner i was hoping the winner of d3 football was getting a wild card bid into the d1 championship playoffs

 

[so cal hawkfan]

I chose to go to UNI back in the day (when they were still D2), partly because you could qualify for D1 by placing high enough at D2 Nationals, and because I had a better chance of being a 4-year starter there (and it was closer to home than WV, which I was considering).
I lobbied for years about the rule change until it was explained to me that it had to do with academic eligibility.
Many lower-division wrestlers couldn't meet academic requirements or make the clearing house to compete in D1, so the NCAA deemed it unfair that they knocked guys who did meet D1 requirements down or off the podium. I wasn't thrilled with that explanation, but it did make a little sense.
Over the years (especially back in the '60s - '80s) there were tons of lower-division guys who did or could have done well at the D1 level. All of the people mentioned in the other thread plus guys like Wade Schalles and many more were contenders (if not champs) at any level. I wish my old brain would bring names to mind, but I remember a guy from Wartburg dominating his way through the UNI Open one year when Iowa, ISU and several other D1 teams had all their starters there. Also, his name just won't come to me, but the kid who couldn't make the grades at Minnesota, but went to Augsburg and became a 4-time undefeated champ. His name is on the tip of my tongue, but just won't come to me. I'm sure someone on this board will know it.

Probably more common back in the day then now. There is so much more advanced scouting now, not as many kids slip through the cracks. I recall Joey “Iceman” Davis out of CA went undefeated in D-2 winning 4 national titles. He’s the Cael Sanderson of D-2. He was matched up against Alex Dierenger at Beat the Streets who was a sophomore at the time I believe. Ringer put on a clinic beating him 10-0 I believe. Another year, they tried to hype another non D-1 kid Brock Gutches 3X NAIA champ out of Southern Oregon in a bout at NWCA All-Star meet vs Nebraska’s Robert Kokesh. Kokesh dominated Gutches. The vast majority of the high level non D-1 wrestlers can keep it close for a period or so, but the pressure D-1 kids put on them for 3 periods typically breaks them. It’s a cool story, but not based in the current reality of collegiate wrestling.

 

[lookleft goright]

Am I getting sick in my old age or what? Every time Spooner posts something, I get all excited and can't wait to read what he has to say. I may have a man crush on him and not know it!!!

 

[thewop]

Right. Keep it pure. The mighty D1 doesn’t need to throw crumbs to underlings. For godsakes, they wouldn’t want to have another pesky Haselrig on their hands. I mean, the nerve of that kid with the alcoholic dad and drug addicted mom (who left him at age 5) not getting any D1 interest or scholarship. Who the hell did he think he was to take advantage of a “silly rule” to become the only 6-time college wrestling champ in NCAA history, with just as many D1 golds as any bluechip Penn State or Iowa wrestler? Who needs another story like that, right?

North Dakota State can't make the CFP and Simpson College can't go to the college world series. Nor can Iowa eliminate Simpson from its own championship. I don't see why wrestling should be different.

 

[squeezebox]

With current transfer rules in place there is beyond zero reason for this to be a thing.

 

[SPOONER]

Am I getting sick in my old age or what? Every time Spooner posts something, I get all excited and can't wait to read what he has to say. I may have a man crush on him and not know it!!!

You get it.

 

[Rotisserie Scrotz]

I chose to go to UNI back in the day (when they were still D2), partly because you could qualify for D1 by placing high enough at D2 Nationals, and because I had a better chance of being a 4-year starter there (and it was closer to home than WV, which I was considering).
I lobbied for years about the rule change until it was explained to me that it had to do with academic eligibility.
Many lower-division wrestlers couldn't meet academic requirements or make the clearing house to compete in D1, so the NCAA deemed it unfair that they knocked guys who did meet D1 requirements down or off the podium. I wasn't thrilled with that explanation, but it did make a little sense.
Over the years (especially back in the '60s - '80s) there were tons of lower-division guys who did or could have done well at the D1 level. All of the people mentioned in the other thread plus guys like Wade Schalles and many more were contenders (if not champs) at any level. I wish my old brain would bring names to mind, but I remember a guy from Wartburg dominating his way through the UNI Open one year when Iowa, ISU and several other D1 teams had all their starters there. Also, his name just won't come to me, but the kid who couldn't make the grades at Minnesota, but went to Augsburg and became a 4-time undefeated champ. His name is on the tip of my tongue, but just won't come to me. I'm sure someone on this board will know it.

You’ve been making some solid posts recently.

Academics indeed can be the reason a NAIA or Juco stud ain’t seeing the big stage. I can see the attraction to wanting to put aside all the extraneous bs and see straight up who is best in wrestling alone.

Of course, Midlands used to be a venue for such a mixed model . . . even though it wasn’t an official championship, it was still cool to see all comers put the paper aside and throw down for bragging rights.

 

[thom67]

Right. Keep it pure. The mighty D1 doesn’t need to throw crumbs to underlings. For godsakes, they wouldn’t want to have another pesky Haselrig on their hands. I mean, the nerve of that kid with the alcoholic dad and drug addicted mom (who left him at age 5) not getting any D1 interest or scholarship. Who the hell did he think he was to take advantage of a “silly rule” to become the only 6-time college wrestling champ in NCAA history, with just as many D1 golds as any bluechip Penn State or Iowa wrestler? Who needs another story like that, right?

Haselrig had some D1 interest. I watched him dominate the PA state championships in his 1 year of high school wrestling. I talked to Iowa coaches about him, but they were not interested because they already had a heavy weight. He went to college to play football.

Right. Keep it pure. The mighty D1 doesn’t need to throw crumbs to underlings. For godsakes, they wouldn’t want to have another pesky Haselrig on their hands. I mean, the nerve of that kid with the alcoholic dad and drug addicted mom (who left him at age 5) not getting any D1 interest or scholarship. Who the hell did he think he was to take advantage of a “silly rule” to become the only 6-time college wrestling champ in NCAA history, with just as many D1 golds as any bluechip Penn State or Iowa wrestler? Who needs another story like that, right?

 

[herkcy]

I've also heard that coaches don't care for the idea based on the potential of a lessor division wrestler knocking off a wrestler from a contending team & that affecting the team scores.

I however love the idea. Instead let's get the NWCA to sponsor a dual/tournament after the season between the champs from each division.

 

[tigerhawk2015]

Blake Gillis for Wartburg beat Fields, Zabriskie, Tervel and Bubba Gritter all in the same year, and yes I know Tervel wasn’t a D1 guy but still pretty good. Beat Fields and Gritter at Midlands before losing to top ranked Dustin????? From Northwestern in the semi.

 

[HikeNatParks]

He has his own story and his own degree - it just doesn't need to be added to the story of Division I.

Without belaboring the point with minutiae - Division II, Division III, NAIA have their own championships with plenty of participation and prestige.

Too bad, V. Already part of D1’s story. A wonderful part, I’d say, one you and Spoons can’t sweep under a rug. You claim the NCAA was wrong to allow what they once did. So could they be wrong again, or is their reversal now absolute since it aligns with your view? The overheating above is odd. All over a D2/D3 Match of Thrones for a spot in the pigtail bout. Why the childish comparisons? Why so dim to bring up team tournaments that don’t apply to one-on-one competition? And careful, SoCal, I’d leave the gals out of any party you describe so colorfully.
My harmless talking point involves a scenario your precious NCAA once backed as strongly as I do. It asks they reinstate a no-cost policy that possibly increases interest (perhaps even revenue at the D2/D3s?) in a sport often at the mercy of income produced by almighty big brother (football). Instead, they guard a suddenly sacred divisional wall in a sport that once left open an intriguing, inspiring window, because it was reasonable to do so. Unlike many here, I’d rather not have college wrestling’s greatest human-interest stories today be about who transferred for how much NIL. I’d like a chance for another Haselrig, or just a nail-biting first-round match by a storybook underdog. In the meantime, don’t be so terrified. Like that 15-15 Hawk/Lion dual decided only by criteria that I wait for, my wish here will never come to pass. And I won’t argue it further. Fire away.

 

[SPOONER]

Blake Gillis for Wartburg beat Fields, Zabriskie, Tervel and Bubba Gritter all in the same year, and yes I know Tervel wasn’t a D1 guy but still pretty good. Beat Fields and Gritter at Midlands before losing to top ranked Dustin????? From Northwestern in the semi.

Thanks. That’s the guy I was referring to earlier.

The overheating above is odd.

Pot, meet kettle. Yeesh.

The D1 championships are for D1 wrestlers. Want to win a D1 title? Go to a D1 school. I don’t understand why that’s such a difficult concept to grasp. Lol

 

[OILCHECKER]

Thanks. That’s the guy I was referring to earlier.




Pot, meet kettle. Yeesh.

The D1 championships are for D1 wrestlers. Want to win a D1 title? Go to a D1 school. I don’t understand why that’s such a difficult concept to grasp. Lol

And I don't see a lot of other people getting worked up about this (for or against).

 

[woodsiding]

It would be fun to see more of the top D2 and D3 guys entered Midlands, Scuffle, Cliff Keen etc. Byron Tate's run though Midlands was awesome to watch. Also, I hate Wartburg.

 

[1stplacehawk]

Steve Fittery had some good success at American after being a two time D2 runner up. I agree with Spooner on this topic.

 

[HikeNatParks]

Thanks. That’s the guy I was referring to earlier.




Pot, meet kettle. Yeesh.

The D1 championships are for D1 wrestlers. Want to win a D1 title? Go to a D1 school. I don’t understand why that’s such a difficult concept to grasp. Lol

Clever, if not original. That fella man-crushing on you must be panting. Can’t resist a last response on this thread before a long holiday break. It’s only made “difficult to grasp” because the NCAA once allowed it. Sorry that raising that fact and this topic as a harmless discussion point strained your comprehension. Eat a lot of turkey. Some say its brain food.

 

[GoHawks1996]

Majority of people who go D2, D3, JUCO when they're good enough to be D1 athletes can't make the grades. Why would we give them a chance to knock off the kids that are just as talented but also made the grades?

I especially hate this in a sport like wrestling where anything can happen at any second, not necessarily the best man winning every time.

As Spooner said, if you want a D1 title, go D1. D2,D3,JUCO guys who think they've got what it takes? Transfer in.

It's so painfully simple I can't believe this is even a conversation.

 

[SPOONER]

Clever, if not original. That fella man-crushing on you must be panting. Can’t resist a last response on this thread before a long holiday break. It’s only made “difficult to grasp” because the NCAA once allowed it. Sorry that raising that fact and this topic as a harmless discussion point strained your comprehension. Eat a lot of turkey. Some say its brain food.

Yes. Thank goodness they got rid of that rule.

 

[Tcalumet]

It was a silly rule and it was good they got rid of it.

The D1 championships are for D1 wrestlers. The other divisions have their own championships. The end.

from a pure fan perspective I would mind seeing the champs from d2 d3 and naia round out 3 of 33 spots.

 

[smalls103]

Blake Gillis for Wartburg beat Fields, Zabriskie, Tervel and Bubba Gritter all in the same year, and yes I know Tervel wasn’t a D1 guy but still pretty good. Beat Fields and Gritter at Midlands before losing to top ranked Dustin????? From Northwestern in the semi.

Dustin Fox.

 

[tigerhawk2015]

Dustin Fox.

Yes sir. It sucks to get old, I just couldn’t remember that! I believe he was national champion that year as well but not sure. Also while on this whole subject I remember a kid from a lower division school knocking off I believe Brinzer when he was with Okie St and the crowd going nuts for him each match he wrestled the rest of the tournament! Again I may be wrong but that’s who I think it was.

 

[TNTwrestle]

Yes sir. It sucks to get old, I just couldn’t remember that! I believe he was national champion that year as well but not sure. Also while on this whole subject I remember a kid from a lower division school knocking off I believe Brinzer when he was with Okie St and the crowd going nuts for him each match he wrestled the rest of the tournament! Again I may be wrong but that’s who I think it was.

From Portland State. Can't remember the name though. Dan something, I think. He had the most fans that day that he ever had.

 

[Trapper85]

Dan Russell