Joey McKenna Transferring possibility

[theIowaHawk]

Great Point!!!! Many of us forget their most important job and that's to help mold these boys into well rounded young men with morals. I'll be honest, I think Cael and Tom are two of the best out there when it comes to doing just that.

Results, thus far are pretty good with both.

But you seem to be the biggest "Tom does it too!" poster in this thread, which I think is a) factually incorrect, or at least misleading, but also (b) implies that it would be acceptable.

Of course it comes down to the private discussions between coach/recruit/family, but "recruiting over" should always be a concern. You have pointed to rent/mejia in a handful of posts, and yes, if they were told they'd get money (which I don't think was allowed at the time they committed), and then that was backtracked it would be a problem. But just having someone commit to your school, and then recruiting and reeling in someone else isn't "recruiting over," at least no automatically. The concern with PSU, of course, is due to the high-profile nature of the recruits. Recruiting a top 100 and a top 10 makes sense, and you can imagine the conversation that takes place. Recruiting a 2 vs. a 3, with another top 5 already starting becomes concerning, because it is hard for anybody, including PSU fans, to imagine what that conversation is. Especially considering it has never been sustainably successful before.

 

[Jts1990]

I wonder what your reactions would have been had Tom said publically that he was not considering bringing in Spencer Lee and Teasdale.... that he had his guys already. You guys would have gone ballistic and would have been fighting to start the next "Fire Tom Brands" thread.

All I'm saying is Brands did at the lower weights what Cael is doing almost throughout the entire lineup. He's bringing in the best that he possibly can. It just so happens there's more opportunity for Cael to do that right now considering how many of the top elite recruits put him and PSU on their top 5 list.

 

[lookleft goright]

I wonder what your reactions would have been had Tom said publically that he was not considering bringing in Spencer Lee and Teasdale.... that he had his guys already. You guys would have gone ballistic and would have been fighting to start the next "Fire Tom Brands" thread.

All I'm saying is Brands did at the lower weights what Cael is doing almost throughout the entire lineup. He's bringing in the best that he possibly can. It just so happens there's more opportunity for Cael to do that right now considering how many of the top elite recruits put him and PSU on their top 5 list.

We (you) can't say for sure what Tom did or did not do. Those kids committed to Iowa way before they could be talked to legally. I get the impression that the Brands did everything by the book and waited until they could talk to them. At that point in time the kids may have realized that there was no money for them and they were just to good to walk on so they went elsewhere. I am not even sure you could call what happened to Meija and Renteria being recruited over. Sometimes the coaches have to remain quiet even if a kid includes them in a comment.
My sense of what happened to Meija and Renteria is quite different to what is happening with all the stars going to PSU. I am not saying Cael is doing anything wrong or unethical, but it is a different animal and situation.

 

[minnhawkeye]

Debating with a Penn State fan is like trying it with a liberal..They know they are right and in no way can the other person have a opinion.

 

[Jts1990]

Debating with a Penn State fan is like trying it with a liberal..They know they are right and in no way can the other person have a opinion.

You should stick with the "Sandusky" approach....

It suits you..

 

[minnhawkeye]

You should stick with the "Sandusky" approach.
Well that has been discssed long time ago and some of States fans still felt or believed JoePa got a bad deal like I said no need to try to discuss with you cause you just stick with your opinion. I see you joined in Feb 2017 so you have a new handle just curious..

 

[grapplefann]

It's simply amazing the mental gymnastics some of you guys go through to find a reason to diminish Sanderson's accomplishments. Brands over recruits and it's part of the process, Cael does and he can't be trusted, Brands leaves Va Tech in complete turmoil and that's understandable, Cael leaves ISU as a top program and he's a villain. Anything but the truth I guess; there seems to be a need to rationalize why he's beating you because of course it can't be because he's doing a better job, no it has to be because he's an underhanded person that screws people over and cheats to get around scholarship rules.

Vak, you're talking like you have first hand knowledge as to how things played out when in reality you don't have a clue. Site me one credible source that backs up what you said.

Tigs, it is what it is. I read the post-Cael interviews with Douglas, and he was not happy with Sanderson's leaving. I don't think that they're close any more. That's not mental gymnastics. It's disappointment. There is something about Sanderson that's always seemed a little detached to me. Not evil, just detached.
That said, Sanderson is doing the best coaching job in Division I for whatever reasons, and he's on task to keep doing so for many years to come unless someone else comes along who can out-recruit and out-coach him.

Also remember, you're on the Iowa board. What did you expect? Hugs and kisses?

 

[PrairieHawk24]

I thought this thread was about Joey McKenna.... Don't we already have a few Iowa/PSU pissing matches going on in other threads?

 

[IAChief32]

I wonder what your reactions would have been had Tom said publically that he was not considering bringing in Spencer Lee and Teasdale.... that he had his guys already. You guys would have gone ballistic and would have been fighting to start the next "Fire Tom Brands" thread.

If you recall, both guys were ready to stay...one in particular didn't give a rip and was ready to come but the money situation just wasn't there for either. Also if you remember, both committed without talking to Iowa in their sophomore year. In Iowa's case, the two guys found other homes. Now, both Meija and Renteria wanted to be Hawks their whole wrestling lives. Very passionate about it. But they still didn't come.

Now PSU is recruiting guys two deep in a lot of situations. Not just a #50 and a #5 but top ten dudes who have no more loyalty to PSU than the next college. But they are still staying, unlike avid Hawk fans Renteria and Mejia. Chance to be on a winning team-Check. Lots of f***-Check. Is that enough for wrestlers who have worked their whole lives to be champions?

So I don't know what Cael is telling these guys...must be some good sh*t he is selling because Tom couldn't get two boys that were black and gold to stay. BTW, I was very sorry it didn't work out with JRent because I am a huge fan of the kid and think he would have flourished under Brands and the Iowa system.

 

[slushhead]

I thought this thread was about Joey McKenna.... Don't we already have a few Iowa/PSU pissing matches going on in other threads?

 

[rossel 33]

We (you) can't say for sure what Tom did or did not do. Those kids committed to Iowa way before they could be talked to legally. I get the impression that the Brands did everything by the book and waited until they could talk to them. At that point in time the kids may have realized that there was no money for them and they were just to good to walk on so they went elsewhere. I am not even sure you could call what happened to Meija and Renteria being recruited over. Sometimes the coaches have to remain quiet even if a kid includes them in a comment.
My sense of what happened to Meija and Renteria is quite different to what is happening with all the stars going to PSU. I am not saying Cael is doing anything wrong or unethical, but it is a different animal and situation.

-----

Those are good points. Both Renteria and Mejia expressed their desire to wrestle at Iowa very early on, and Brands did everything by the book.

While both very good wrestlers and would be welcome in any program, neither Mejia or Renteria reached the high level of Spencer Lee or Teasdale as recruits. Money was likely an issue and if Iowa didn't offer any/enough, it likely influenced them to look elsewhere.

Lee and Teasdale are both top 10 p4p, while Mejia and Renteria are not. Mejia is #4 in his weight class and Renteria #7 in his.

 

[Sullivan]

If you recall, both guys were ready to stay...one in particular didn't give a rip and was ready to come but the money situation just wasn't there for either. Also if you remember, both committed without talking to Iowa in their sophomore year. In Iowa's case, the two guys found other homes. Now, both Meija and Renteria wanted to be Hawks their whole wrestling lives. Very passionate about it. But they still didn't come.

Now PSU is recruiting guys two deep in a lot of situations. Not just a #50 and a #5 but top ten dudes who have no more loyalty to PSU than the next college. But they are still staying, unlike avid Hawk fans Renteria and Mejia. Chance to be on a winning team-Check. Lots of f***-Check. Is that enough for wrestlers who have worked their whole lives to be champions?

So I don't know what Cael is telling these guys...must be some good sh*t he is selling because Tom couldn't get two boys that were black and gold to stay. BTW, I was very sorry it didn't work out with JRent because I am a huge fan of the kid and think he would have flourished under Brands and the Iowa system.

Many of the kids that are now committed to Penn State won't be satisfied with a national title. They have higher goals such as multiple titles, world championship teams, and Olympic gold medals (similar to Spencer Lee).

 

[pumpdog20]

Please start another thread when McKenna or some other big recruiting news happens. This ones' a dumpster fire.

 

[IAChief32]

Many of the kids that are now committed to Penn State won't be satisfied with a national title. They have higher goals such as multiple titles, world championship teams, and Olympic gold medals (similar to Spencer Lee).

Some of the kids that are committing to PSU might not even start.

Glad PSU could come to the rescue with those high and mighty goals...Now maybe the U.S. can go out and win some World and Olympic titles/medals for a change.

 

[SPOONER]

Do you really think that is his only job? Or Brands' only job?

Sure. Other than play within the rules, treat others with respect, and all that jazz. If you're a wrestling coach and you can find someone better and the fit is right, you do it. Always be improving.

If Iowa had an AA returning at 125 they wouldn't have turned down Spencer Lee.

 

[dicemen99]

We (you) can't say for sure what Tom did or did not do. Those kids committed to Iowa way before they could be talked to legally. I get the impression that the Brands did everything by the book and waited until they could talk to them. At that point in time the kids may have realized that there was no money for them and they were just to good to walk on so they went elsewhere. I am not even sure you could call what happened to Meija and Renteria being recruited over. Sometimes the coaches have to remain quiet even if a kid includes them in a comment.
My sense of what happened to Meija and Renteria is quite different to what is happening with all the stars going to PSU. I am not saying Cael is doing anything wrong or unethical, but it is a different animal and situation.

That is an interesting take. Most, if not all, of the PSU examples being cited here - Marstellar, Haines, RBY, Hoffman - are with commitments that occurred before July 1st of their SR years (and Hoffman did not even commit) when PSU was not allowed to discuss money with them. I guess your implication IS that Cael is not doing things by the book.

Perhaps he withdrew the $200,000 plus insurance offer to them???

 

[purescurve]

 

[LaxHawk174]

That is an interesting take. Most, if not all, of the PSU examples being cited here - Marstellar, Haines, RBY, Hoffman - are with commitments that occurred before July 1st of their SR years (and Hoffman did not even commit) when PSU was not allowed to discuss money with them. I guess your implication IS that Cael is not doing things by the book.

Perhaps he withdrew the $200,000 plus insurance offer to them???

You can discuss money prior to july 1st going into SR year, just not anything official on paper. Coach Doug Schwab said that as a reply to me when i asked the question "Thought you couldnt discuss scholly money until july 1st?" during IAwrestle podcast.

 

[dicemen99]

You can discuss money prior to july 1st going into SR year, just not anything official on paper. Coach Doug Schwab said that as a reply to me when i asked the question "Thought you couldnt discuss scholly money until july 1st?" during IAwrestle podcast.

OK, so then his take is that Brands does NOT discuss money before July 1st and that these kids just committed on there own hoping there would be money and there ended up being none. And at PSU money is discussed and offered THAT'S why they commit there and then when July 1st rolls around PSU lowballs them. Still an interesting take. I'm also aware of the rules and what the conversations go like because I have first hand knowledge of it, stuff like '"It's only going to cost you a few thousand"' "'We intend to offer you a full scholarship"' "'Fill out your financial aid paperwork"' but I was responding directly to his take on it.

Overall the conversation in this thread is an interesting take. You have to go back 4 years to cite two examples of PSU decommitments - again, Hoffman never committed to PSU - while Iowa has had four in the last 12 months. It takes a awful lot of B&G logic to come to the conclusion that Cael has a potential problem here.

 

[nitlion6]

Cael essentially admitted that he left for Penn State because he was struggling to succeed in the less fertile recruiting grounds of Iowa as a second banana. He wanted his job to be easier. Plus he was getting rolled by Iowa every year. So....good try?

Let me get this straight. Cael moves to Penn State, a school with a solid wrestling history. Nothing like Iowa State's history, but solid. In 2 years his Penn State program begins to perform at a level that eventually achieves sucess at a level unseen in division-1 wrestling since Gable retired.

You believe at a school with a solid history Cael can surpass the mighty Hawk program, but at a school with a history of multiple team championships and the Dan Gable and Cael Sanderson legends - he could not have built a powerhouse?
Yeah, ok. Rationalize away. I figure you probably have another 20 years to perfect the skill into an art form.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Sure. Other than play within the rules, treat others with respect, and all that jazz. If you're a wrestling coach and you can find someone better and the fit is right, you do it. Always be improving.

If Iowa had an AA returning at 125 they wouldn't have turned down Spencer Lee.

No doubt, it always depends on the conversation. Guaranteeing a spot to Lee would be a problem, not discussing it with your returning AA would be a problem.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Let me get this straight. Cael moves to Penn State, a school with a solid wrestling history. Nothing like Iowa State's history, but solid. In 2 years his Penn State program begins to perform at a level that eventually achieves sucess at a level unseen in division-1 wrestling since Gable retired.

You believe at a school with a solid history Cael can surpass the mighty Hawk program, but at a school with a history of multiple team championships and the Dan Gable and Cael Sanderson legends - he could not have built a powerhouse?
Yeah, ok. Rationalize away. I figure you probably have another 20 years to perfect the skill into an art form.

This has evidence to support it, his teams were never better than his first. Even knowing who he had incoming (Taylor), it wasn't enough to win. His combined classes (like Brand's) got him over that hump, and we know what happened from there. Without those first wins one can't simply hand him his current recruits, especially if he had continued losing to Iowa.

He admitted why he went to PSU. Why won't you?

"Solid." Ok.

 

[theIowaHawk]

OK, so then his take is that Brands does NOT discuss money before July 1st and that these kids just committed on there own hoping there would be money and there ended up being none. And at PSU money is discussed and offered THAT'S why they commit there and then when July 1st rolls around PSU lowballs them. Still an interesting take. I'm also aware of the rules and what the conversations go like because I have first hand knowledge of it, stuff like '"It's only going to cost you a few thousand"' "'We intend to offer you a full scholarship"' "'Fill out your financial aid paperwork"' but I was responding directly to his take on it.

Overall the conversation in this thread is an interesting take. You have to go back 4 years to cite two examples of PSU decommitments - again, Hoffman never committed to PSU - while Iowa has had four in the last 12 months. It takes a awful lot of B&G logic to come to the conclusion that Cael has a potential problem here.

Put those comparisons aside, the questions arise directly from the "quality" of the recruits in the context of history.

Do you really not see that?

 

[wasdt21]

why even respond to those 2

 

[SPOONER]

Let me get this straight. Cael moves to Penn State, a school with a solid wrestling history. Nothing like Iowa State's history, but solid. In 2 years his Penn State program begins to perform at a level that eventually achieves sucess at a level unseen in division-1 wrestling since Gable retired.

You believe at a school with a solid history Cael can surpass the mighty Hawk program, but at a school with a history of multiple team championships and the Dan Gable and Cael Sanderson legends - he could not have built a powerhouse?
Yeah, ok. Rationalize away. I figure you probably have another 20 years to perfect the skill into an art form.

Cael would have done well at ISU and that success would have likely lead to improved support for the program. But he wouldn't likely have done PSU-well there. At PSU the recruiting grounds are more fertile, there's less direct completion with Iowa, and the commitment was there ($$$) to build a championship program--far more than what existed at ISU at the time. It is only now, so many years later that ISU is stepping up.

 

[The Vak]

Let me get this straight. Cael moves to Penn State, a school with a solid wrestling history. Nothing like Iowa State's history, but solid. In 2 years his Penn State program begins to perform at a level that eventually achieves sucess at a level unseen in division-1 wrestling since Gable retired.

You believe at a school with a solid history Cael can surpass the mighty Hawk program, but at a school with a history of multiple team championships and the Dan Gable and Cael Sanderson legends - he could not have built a powerhouse?
Yeah, ok. Rationalize away. I figure you probably have another 20 years to perfect the skill into an art form.

What ridiculousness are you talking about here? You're comparing, Iowa State, Second place to Iowa over and over again for decades with very little winning done by them, to Penn State, an acknowledged sleeping giant with a ridiculous recruiting base?

The bottom line, that you refuse to acknowledge, is that Cael himself has admitted that he left for this reason It's sad.

 

[nitlion6]

Blah blah blah every thread. You penn staters are a sensitive bunch! Fans on an Iowa board don't like Cael?? Who cares? I read at least one post a day on bwi bagging on Brands or how delusional HR posters are but anytime Cael is mentioned over here you smug fanboys show up and cry like babies Just stfu already

No. There isn't a whole lot of Tom Brands bashing. Occasionally there is, but you will read more "Brands appreciation" comments than "Brands bashing" comments. Spyker's rants do not count.

Now, making fun of delusional HR posters. Yep.
Come on though. When you go through and read these threads there has to be an occasion or two where you think, "christ we sound delusional and whiney." I mean, you have a thread about McKenna transferring and you twist it into Penn State and Cael. You all complain about Penn State posters hijacking every thread and making it about Penn State. You don't need any Penn Staters to guide you down that path. You do that all by yourselves. You have a collective Cael fixation.

 

[wasdt21]

then just go away

 

[nitlion6]

What ridiculousness are you talking about here? You're comparing, Iowa State, Second place to Iowa over and over again for decades with very little winning done by them, to Penn State, an acknowledged sleeping giant with a ridiculous recruiting base?

The bottom line, that you refuse to acknowledge, is that Cael himself has admitted that he left for this reason It's sad.

I do not refuse to acknowledge what he said. I know what he said. I also know if Pollard had stepped up and given him the support he ask for he probably does not make that phone call to Tim Curley.

I do like your ability to frame a situation to make your point seem valid. In your mind it is reasonable to assume Cael was going to have great success at Penn State because of the fertile recruiting, even though it had never been accomplished. Yet, because ISU had been second fiddle to Iowa for so long there is no reasonable way to imagine a Cael run ISU program would surpass the Hawks. What was that Flying Tiger wrote, mental gymnastics.

If Cael's PSU success had very little to with Cael's capabilities maybe you have a point. Since what is going on with Penn State wrestling is unprecedented relative to PSU wrestling - Cael's capabilities apparently are quite capable. So it is not much of a stretch to believe a Cael ISU would be winning championships. Hell, he was already recruiting top notch talent from all over to Ames.

Cael's ISU teams were not far off Iowa when Iowa had the double-recruit championship teams. For your argument that a Cael run ISU would have continously failed against Iowa to have even a smidgen of possibility you have to assume that as Iowa, with only one recruiting class at a time, declined a bit ISU would have had to have experienced a similar slip. Based upon the appearance that Cael and Penn State seem to be getting better, even after championship seasons it is a rather elementary conclusion to assume Cael and ISU would have continued to improve, not decline.

What is sad is your desperate need to rationalize any and all Cael Sanderson/Penn State successes.

 

[IAChief32]

Holy shit our PSU friends are putting in some paragraphs in this thread.

Hey Nitlion...being in Iowa is pretty cool.

 

[Flying_Tiger]

Put those comparisons aside, the questions arise directly from the "quality" of the recruits in the context of history.

Do you really not see that?

Why does he have to put those comparisons aside, because you can't refute the point? Trying to distort things by focusing on the "quality" is a sham argument, you might as well just say it's ok when Iowa does it but not when Penn State does. Bottom line is PSU has had two decommitments in the last few years - Marstellar and Haines, Hoffman never committed - while the Hawkeyes have had four decommitments in the past 12 months - Renteria, Mejia, Teasdale, Troy. But somehow Cael has the problem…...Do you really not see that?

 

[lookleft goright]

Let me get this straight. Cael moves to Penn State, a school with a solid wrestling history. Nothing like Iowa State's history, but solid. In 2 years his Penn State program begins to perform at a level that eventually achieves sucess at a level unseen in division-1 wrestling since Gable retired.

You believe at a school with a solid history Cael can surpass the mighty Hawk program, but at a school with a history of multiple team championships and the Dan Gable and Cael Sanderson legends - he could not have built a powerhouse?
Yeah, ok. Rationalize away. I figure you probably have another 20 years to perfect the skill into an art form.

It is pretty obvious to everyone that PSU was wiling and able to put money into the wrestling program that ISU would not or could not at the time (it seems they have changed with Dresser now). It sure seems to me that Cael made the right choice for him and a good choice.

I am not sure without the money of PSU, he could have built such a dynasty. The same goes for Gable. What Carver did and the HWC was a huge advantage. Aside from being a great coach, he had the money (the jack - as he put it) to be super successful.

Cael is also a great coach, but the money ( aka the jack) he has is helping him pull away from the field. Why can't people with B & G glasses as well as people with B &W glasses on see this and jus admit it?

 

[lookleft goright]

That is an interesting take. Most, if not all, of the PSU examples being cited here - Marstellar, Haines, RBY, Hoffman - are with commitments that occurred before July 1st of their SR years (and Hoffman did not even commit) when PSU was not allowed to discuss money with them. I guess your implication IS that Cael is not doing things by the book.

Perhaps he withdrew the $200,000 plus insurance offer to them???

I am not implying that at all. I am just saying that people have assumed they know the conversations the coaches are having and we do not. I think Cael is operating with in the rules. He happens to have some great resources at his disposal. A hot recruiting area and an incredible likable personality that makes kids believe they can do anything. Kids are drawn to him. He really seems to relate to them and the kids who wrestler for him say only nice things. In no way am I saying he is not following the rules.

I don't remember you being so sensitive.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Why does he have to put those comparisons aside, because you can't refute the point? Trying to distort things by focusing on the "quality" is a sham argument, you might as well just say it's ok when Iowa does it but not when Penn State does. Bottom line is PSU has had two decommitments in the last few years - Marstellar and Haines, Hoffman never committed - while the Hawkeyes have had four decommitments in the past 12 months - Renteria, Mejia, Teasdale, Troy. But somehow Cael has the problem…...Do you really not see that?

Well you've made it clear your viewpoint won't consider the obvious. The comparison putting aside has nothing to do with ignoring it, which is obvious to any reasonable reading of my post. How you think the "quality" argument is a sham is beyond me, other than you accomplish the very thing you complained about.

Impressively ignorant and misrepresentative, even for you. Well done.

 

[theIowaHawk]

I do not refuse to acknowledge what he said. I know what he said. I also know if Pollard had stepped up and given him the support he ask for he probably does not make that phone call to Tim Curley.

I do like your ability to frame a situation to make your point seem valid. In your mind it is reasonable to assume Cael was going to have great success at Penn State because of the fertile recruiting, even though it had never been accomplished. Yet, because ISU had been second fiddle to Iowa for so long there is no reasonable way to imagine a Cael run ISU program would surpass the Hawks. What was that Flying Tiger wrote, mental gymnastics.

If Cael's PSU success had very little to with Cael's capabilities maybe you have a point. Since what is going on with Penn State wrestling is unprecedented relative to PSU wrestling - Cael's capabilities apparently are quite capable. So it is not much of a stretch to believe a Cael ISU would be winning championships. Hell, he was already recruiting top notch talent from all over to Ames.

Cael's ISU teams were not far off Iowa when Iowa had the double-recruit championship teams. For your argument that a Cael run ISU would have continously failed against Iowa to have even a smidgen of possibility you have to assume that as Iowa, with only one recruiting class at a time, declined a bit ISU would have had to have experienced a similar slip. Based upon the appearance that Cael and Penn State seem to be getting better, even after championship seasons it is a rather elementary conclusion to assume Cael and ISU would have continued to improve, not decline.

What is sad is your desperate need to rationalize any and all Cael Sanderson/Penn State successes.

Once again you disagree with Cael, in order to defend some weird prideful notion you have on his behalf, which he, himself doesn't appear to ascribe to.

There is evidence about all of this, what he did, and who he was bringing in. The results occurred, he would not have won with what we could directly attribute to him. In order to accept your premise you have to also include things that happened at PSU, which were not and did not occur at ISU.

This would be akin to Iowa fans demanding that Brands would have won at VT, which there is no evidence for. Sure, you can think whatever you want, you are just doing so without support for it - even from Cael himself.

 

[theIowaHawk]

why even respond to those 2

I apologize, I'm done.

 

[Tony Hawk]

Please start another thread when McKenna or some other big recruiting news happens. This ones' a dumpster fire.

RIGHT!

 

[PSU Mike]

McKenna.

You're welcome.

 

[Inspiteofourselves]

This thread was good 4 pages ago.

 

[dicemen99]

Well you've made it clear your viewpoint won't consider the obvious. The comparison putting aside has nothing to do with ignoring it, which is obvious to any reasonable reading of my post. How you think the "quality" argument is a sham is beyond me, other than you accomplish the very thing you complained about.

Impressively ignorant and misrepresentative, even for you. Well done.

This is the 2nd time you've posted this rebuttal. The first time quoted my interesting take post. If you look at my post, I am quoting lookleft's post, not your "quality" argument - although I tend to think you are overthinking things on that one. Your argument has nothing to do with looklefts post which included conjecture about when the Brands discussed money.