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Loyalist or Revolutionist?

Should Tom resign/be fired?

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    189
MAGAman said:
Its important to keep alumni engaged and i dont know many alum that like TT or their leadership. And i know alot of alumni. They are a great recruiting tool, they run clubs and they donate money. They have been disconnected from tt and program.
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I have heard that, never from someone. So close to them before!
 
nah keep him. just accept that Penn St is so good and we are 2nd place team without the gambling.
 
I think the only way you consider moving off TNT is if you get a DT,Burroughs, or Dake that would want the job.
I personally think Mark Hall would be a great hire as an assistant. Already coaching at a smaller program, and would fit nicely as a heavier coach that understands scrambling/technique as well as anyone. I don’t see Nolf leaving NLWC until he’s done competing, but he would be my first choice.
 
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The cow catcher said:
I think the only way you consider moving off TNT is if you get a DT,Burroughs, or Dake that would want the job.
I personally think Mark Hall would be a great hire as an assistant. Already coaching at a smaller program, and would fit nicely as a heavier coach that understands scrambling/technique as well as anyone. I don’t see Nolf leaving NLWC until he’s done competing, but he would be my first choice.
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Might have to bring Slay in to coach HWC in order to get Hall to come but I feel like that’s a move that could make a lot of sense with Spencer’s relationship and familiarity with Slay as well.
 
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MAGAman said:
I didnt say that. Your blind if you dont see old and new alum not fans of TT.
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Many of them never were, but after this year's poor performance the drumbeats got a lot louder. Of course, the trolls are enjoying every moment of this too. I remember Hawk fans that never forgave them for dumping Jimmy Z.
 
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Inthecircle said:
TNT aren’t blind to are inability to scramble. There will be a lot of technique drilling in the offseason on finishing quickly. There will be more film study.
We might become more boring because we are expending to much energy and time being in positions we don’t need to be in, like scrambling and long finishes..
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And this. This is exactly why Tom needs to be fired. In-fugging-credible

“TNT aren’t blind to our inability to scramble”

SO THEIR SOLUTION IS TO CONTINUE TO HAVE A INABILITY TO SCRAMBLE?!?!?!?!?!

JFC they really are gibbering chimps.
 
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vhsalum said:
And this. This is exactly why Tim needs to be fired. In-fugging-credible

“TNT aren’t blind to our inability to scramble”

SO THEY’RE SOLUTION IS TO CONTINUE TO HAVE A INABILITY TO SCRAMBLE?!?!?!?!?!

JFC they really are gibbering chimps.
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Well, you’re getting that impression from a fan’s perspective, so there’s that.
 
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At this point I feel they have burned too many bridges and are too socially awkward and too set in their ways to be able to make the recruiting and development improvements that would be needed to enable the program to reach its full potential. If they hadn't ham strung themselves by seemingly not getting along with so many people it would be a lot easier sell. Possibly if they swallowed their stubbornness and buried the hatchet with a bunch of people. Terry went to HWC allowing new assistants to come in and open things up to change they could get things going but I am not seeing that happen. On top of everything they are getting pretty old on the wrestling coach age scale. I have no doubts about how much they care about their wrestlers and their dedication to the program but unfortunately those qualities alone do not equate to performing at the needed level.
 
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MVPFAN said:
At this point I feel they have burned too many bridges and are too socially awkward and too set in their ways to be able to make the recruiting and development improvements that would be needed to enable the program to reach its full potential. If they hadn't ham strung themselves by seemingly not getting along with so many people it would be a lot easier sell. Possibly if they swallowed their stubbornness and buried the hatchet with a bunch of people. Terry went to HWC allowing new assistants to come in and open things up to change they could get things going but I am not seeing that happen. On top of everything they are getting pretty old on the wrestling coach age scale. I have no doubts about how much they care about their wrestlers and their dedication to the program but unfortunately those qualities alone do not equate to performing at the needed level.
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It’s over for this staff as far as catching PSU goes. It’s not happening with this staff. But I don’t know if any staff could.

Let’s take a step back though. Catching PSU is the end goal, but this program isn’t even close to that. Sports in general is a game of riding momentum. Iowa had a chance to build that momentum after getting Spencer Lee. A chance to show that they can get dudes on top of the podium, while promoting an exciting style of wrestling. They did that somewhat. They got Lee on top of the podium, but no one else, COVID happened, and you had a dominant team finish their run riddled with injuries.

That built momentum is gone. While Lee was having his run and the team was at the top, I remember thinking is this just the Spencer Lee effect, or can Iowa sustain this. Now it’s 2024 and we have our answer.

Can Iowa wait until 2028 to get their next big head coach hire in Lee? I’m throwing Lee out there because he’s the only Iowa guy I would consider to replace TNT, and you know TNT want to be replaced by a Hawkeye. In my opinion, Iowa can’t wait until 2028/2029. If you have a chance of getting David Taylor, I’m doing whatever it takes to get him at Iowa.
 
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Inthecircle said:
Then stop watching and go route for a team you can get behind.
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He’s not wrong - our upper weights 57-heavy don’t have a coach that is going to take them to the next level. As in winning titles. Plenty of head coaches have made such moves and it worked - NW brought in Andrew Howe, Cornell brought in gwizdowski, Nebraska - dalagnev, and so forth and so on. The attitude of love it or leave it will cause our downward slide to continue. Having the sack to make a needed change is tom’s job.
 
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HawkGold said:
Great post.

I’ll respect it because it was their choice, but I’ll never understand why Lee and his circle thought it was in his best interest to not get surgery immediately following the NCAA tournament. It gets brought up all the time on here that COVID has negatively impacted Lee’s career, and I agree with that. But the decision to hold off on the surgery had just as much, if not more of a negative impact.

Here’s to hoping that Lee comes out guns blazing at the Olympic Trials. He’s done so much for the Iowa program and I wish him nothing but the best.
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Spencer has talked about the decision to get or not get surgery at length in many interviews and even his and desantos Flo film. That would prob answer your question of the why behind the decision…
 
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The cow catcher said:
I think the only way you consider moving off TNT is if you get a DT,Burroughs, or Dake that would want the job.
I personally think Mark Hall would be a great hire as an assistant. Already coaching at a smaller program, and would fit nicely as a heavier coach that understands scrambling/technique as well as anyone. I don’t see Nolf leaving NLWC until he’s done competing, but he would be my first choice.
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Mark hall is great defensively but didn’t take shots against high level guys - that’s why Valencia flew past him. We have guys that are great defensively (Morningstar). We need prolific scorers and finishers like DT or JB or Cox.
 
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4net3sandbagger said:
With all due respect, you don't really have to be. Just look at the actions of the elite prospects. I think the choices they are making speak loud enough.
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Maybe they were focusing on another recruit at the time but I do know they didn’t go that hard after Mendez. Not that they didn’t recruit him just didn’t go hard after him. If there was an Iowa style guy on the mat at ncaa’s it was Jesse.
 
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Tcalumet said:
Spencer has talked about the decision to get or not get surgery at length in many interviews and even his and desantos Flo film. That would prob answer your question of the why behind the decision…
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And I’ve heard all of those interviews so I’ll reword my statement from before. I don’t agree with the reasoning to not get the surgery.
 
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Tcalumet said:
Maybe they were focusing on another recruit at the time but I do know they didn’t go that hard after Mendez. Not that they didn’t recruit him just didn’t go hard after him. If there was an Iowa style guy on the mat at ncaa’s it was Jesse.
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Is it possible to recruit more than one person at a time? Look, I understand getting out recruited by Penn State. But there are some serious hammers going to places like North Carolina!?!?! I'll be at Virginia Beach next weekend. I guarantee Iowa will not have a rep there. That's just the norm at these big events.
 
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el dub said:
Well, you’re getting that impression from a fan’s perspective, so there’s that.
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Obtuse? I’ll see you under the bridge at midnight, sir….

But seriously, a poster gave a lame excuse/perspective/interpretation of TnT’s inability to grasp the necessity of learning how to get comfortable scrambling. The poster thinks one can learn (another?) way around the necessity to scramble, eh?

But I’m not willing to accept the poster is speaking FOR the coach. So, verbally disrespecting a coach for words written by a civilian on a message board that may not reflect reality is reaching, maybe.
 
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GlenHawk said:
I appreciate the response, but if TNT think the solution is finishing shots faster, they are still completely oblivious to the fact that you WILL be in tough positions and you WILL have to wrestle out of them.

Again, these issues have been going on for the better part of a decade. If “finishing faster” is the only solution they can come up with and they still view scrambling as "expending too much energy and time in positions we don't need to be in", that’s more proof that it’s time for a change.

As Askren said in 2017:

“I talk about this all the freaking time but you (DT) said, "Who cares if people can get to a leg because people are going to scramble today?" And my take on Iowa Hawkeye Wrestling, and Penn State is pretty much the exact opposite, is that they refuse to admit that scrambling is a part of the game, so none of their guys do it, so none of their guys have a feel for it when they aren't getting it in the practice room. So then they get in a match and they are scared that someone is going to scramble on them, so they don't pull the trigger, so then they have no offense. You can't get people tired if you don't have any offense - it's the ruin of the Iowa system and then PSU flips the script and they have guys like Jason Nolf who will wrestle in any position on the planet."​
​
DT later goes on to say, "The days of shooting 55 high crotches every single day with perfect finishes doesn't happen. It doesn't happen in a match and it really shouldn't be happening in practice or even in a drill."​

Sadly, it sounds like these critiques of Iowa wrestling still hold up seven years later, and "finishing faster' and avoiding scrambling situations certainly isn't the answer.

Also, if the future of the program hinges on Spencer Lee’s success, then maybe they should have fixed his knees immediately in 2021. They were more worried about the team race in 2021-22 than Spencer’s long-term success. The way the NCAA tourney ended and how he wrestled at the U.S. Open weeks later, only to drop out again looked terrible. Spencer is a fierce competitor, but TNT should have known better. He wasn’t ready mentally or physically, so be the adult and COACH him into resting and taking care of himself.

So again, I am having trouble seeing the ‘master plan’ that Tom and Terry are working on here. I think they are in over their heads and they’re scrambling by bringing in the Ferraris and majorly overpaying for one-year transfers. I guess we will see what changes will be made this offseason, but I hope Beth has her ducks in a row to make a big move next spring because nothing you said gives me confidence this is getting fixed.
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Good post.
Better finishes is my idea because I don’t see us getting better at scrambling. Watching PSU, they typically finish fast, especially on re-shots. I’ve posted in the past saying replacing the assistant coaches would be the place to start. I believe in loyalty because it’s how I was raised and it’s disappointing that it has vanished. My hope is TNT get to go out on their own terms.
Spencer has to do well to have any chance of gaining momentum. If he doesn’t, it will damage recruiting. Getting the extra top recruit could be contingent on it.
The risk of clearing the whole staff out isn’t worth it. How long would it take to knock PSU off its perch with a new staff?
After the Olympics this year they will have even more momentum, another reason why Spencer has to do well.
 
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grapplefann said:
I am too.
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Do you loyalists think the Patriots shouldn't have fired Bill Belichick?

Sports are about recent performance. Both for athletes and for coaches.

And the decision on whether or not to keep a coach or athlete needs to be made based on current and future expected performance, not their personality or how much you like a guy or what they've done in the past for the program.
 
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Inthecircle said:
Good post.
Better finishes is my idea because I don’t see us getting better at scrambling. Watching PSU, they typically finish fast, especially on re-shots. I’ve posted in the past saying replacing the assistant coaches would be the place to start. I believe in loyalty because it’s how I was raised and it’s disappointing that it has vanished. My hope is TNT get to go out on their own terms.
Spencer has to do well to have any chance of gaining momentum. If he doesn’t, it will damage recruiting. Getting the extra top recruit could be contingent on it.
The risk of clearing the whole staff out isn’t worth it. How long would it take to knock PSU off its perch with a new staff?
After the Olympics this year they will have even more momentum, another reason why Spencer has to do well.
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I’m so effin glad we’ve found yet another reason to heap a bunch of pressure on Spencer to save the program. Great. Our Lord and Savior. Just in time for Easter.

FYI, it will never make good sense to state or imply that the success of a program rides on one wrestler’s shoulders. It’s kinda douchey, too.
 
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Rotisserie Scrotz said:
I’m so effin glad we’ve found yet another reason to heap a bunch of pressure on Spencer to save the program. Great. Our Lord and Savior. Just in time for Easter.

FYI, it will never make good sense to state or imply that the success of a program rides on one wrestler’s shoulders. It’s kinda douchey, too.
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Yep. And we could've had 3 Spencer's in the lineup this year and still not won nationals. We're a long ways off.
 
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