The future will not be gable/sanderson bright if he stays! Its not about past stats….which can look good not great. Its about the trend most feel the program is on…..down from here not up.
Loyalist or Revolutionist?
- Thread starter Rotisserie Scrotz
- Start date
Everyone knows this data. But the analysis is SOOO lazy. "Iowa has had the 2nd best avg team finish and 2nd most AAs since Tom was hired so he should stay." Holy smokes. Look at trends. Look at program standards. Compare apples to apples. Iowa has better resources than any other program. That analysis was so worthless.
Thank you for this helpful and thorough deconstruction of the video. The world is better for your insight.
Ha. If you want thorough insight from me, you have plenty past messages on plenty of threads to pick from. A video as lazy as that one doesn't deserve thorough insight. What else needs to be said?
Who is ‘most’? Even the poll in this thread, populated by a mob, suggests otherwise (currently at least). Also: how can you understand a trend if you don’t look at the past? All I did was pass along some relevant content from the wrestling world; you respond by waving around your pitchfork.
Exactly…..the program had success in spite of TT! What coupd of been with another coach hired in 2004
Again, I thank you for your clear, precise, and constructive response. I will think twice next time before lazily posting data-driven wrestling content to the board.
You're very welcome. Or maybe just choose 'data-driven wrestling content' that isn't so lazy and already known by the vast majority of posters on this board (and probably lurkers too).
I would be interested in how much money the HWC has to throw at some Senior level guys after the Olympics in August (or Trials really in late April).
We just built this State of the Art, stand-alone wrestling training facility and now we need guys to fill it. I’d love for HWC to be able to make a splash and give some guys a fresh start in Iowa City.
That to me is where you start (and possibly a shakeup in assistant coaching staff). Once you have the training partners, the destination becomes more attractive to recruits and transfers.
We just built this State of the Art, stand-alone wrestling training facility and now we need guys to fill it. I’d love for HWC to be able to make a splash and give some guys a fresh start in Iowa City.
That to me is where you start (and possibly a shakeup in assistant coaching staff). Once you have the training partners, the destination becomes more attractive to recruits and transfers.
Loyalist.....who expects some pretty visible and very rapid changes/improvements. Also a loyalist who wouldn't lose any sleep if he was replaced by a high profile new face that is likely to bring in a new style and have better recruiting results. Beth at least needs to bring some pressure here and keep the leash short.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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I had hope that Brands was bringing changes after the 3 ring binder and the recruiting success from PA. Won a championship with Spencer Lee, Kem, Eierman, the bull, etc. and then that momentum and success completely dried up and now we're back to where we were before then with no change in sight. The recruiting classes following that championship have just been extremely lackluster outside of the typical 1-2 guys.
Dresser? Lmao. Can't beat iowa and took him 7 yrs to finish inside the top ten. Most of that list wouldn't come to Iowa.
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anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb
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"It's disappointing that loyalty has vanished". Really? You come across as someone who is naive to how sports work. You aren't owed anything as a coach or athlete. You get what you earn. You perform or you get replaced. There are multiple wrestlers at each weight, and if you aren't performing up to standards the backups or transfers will replace you. You aren't owed a spot in the lineup. Loyalty isn't worth much when it comes to winning. Performance is. Why do you think exceptions should be made for coaches? Coaches are already generally given much more time and leniency with underperformance in comparison to their athletes.
You hope TNT go out on their own terms? Most coaches do not go out on their own terms. Tom and Terry as well as Kirk Ferentz are all on short leashes at the moment and their seats are hot. The responsibility is on them to perform. They're extremely highly compensated and are underperforming expectations.
It has nothing to do with their personalities or lack of appreciation for the successes they've had over the years coaching at Iowa. They just currently aren't coaching up to standards and need to make changes or be replaced. Simple as that.
Great video! Good information and the conclusion is what it is. And yes, I'm a loyalist; I love Tom Brands. And aside from DT (for his dominance, wrestling style, and recruiting ability; this generation loves the guy and he can pull the Pennsylvania and every other state talent to Iowa), I don't think we're going to find anyone better than Tom. As for JB and J'den Cox, clearly they are winners and a couple of the greatest but I don't know that they're going to pull the talent to Iowa that DT will and without the talent it won't work. So for me, unless you can make David Taylor an offer he can't resist - and everyone has a price - the best CoA is to keep Tom, send Terry to HWC or to coach Wisconsin (would love to see what he can do with a quality program), release the rest of the paid assistants, and start making the necessary changes (focus on offensive wrestling, scrambling, strength training and wellness techniques, etc.). I've got nothing against any of our assistants, but from the perspective of a guy who doesn't see what everyone does, I don't see what anyone does by what I see when our men take the mat. Against top 30-40 ranked talent we had very poor offensive efforts from all weight classes except 65 and 97. Sure it was fun beating up on the weaker schools/wrestlers and getting all those bonus point wins at the beginning of the season, but once we started wrestling decent talent we went into that one or two (mostly one) TD will win it approach. That's gotta change and I don't think it can change with our current brand (skill level and style) of assistants. Loyalty is great, but we need loyalty and the ability to recruit and improve our wrestlers, and lately I'm not seeing either.
I'm loyal to the program, not a particular coach. If the coach is meeting the standards of the program (and his own stated standards), then keep him. Tom Brands is not doing that (and hasn't been doing that since 2010 really) so we are overdue for a revolution at the head coaching position for the program I'm loyal to.
Zalesky's team took 4th with 70 points at NCAAs the year he was replaced by Tom Brands. Tom Brands' team just took 5th with 68 points (70 points would have earned the team a 4th place finish over an in-state rival). Our wrestlers trend downward at the end of their careers more often than not. The HWC has been trending downward for nearly a decade. We've tried changing assistants several times with no improvements in results. Our teams have shown the same weaknesses for over a decade. What are we waiting for?
Zalesky's team took 4th with 70 points at NCAAs the year he was replaced by Tom Brands. Tom Brands' team just took 5th with 68 points (70 points would have earned the team a 4th place finish over an in-state rival). Our wrestlers trend downward at the end of their careers more often than not. The HWC has been trending downward for nearly a decade. We've tried changing assistants several times with no improvements in results. Our teams have shown the same weaknesses for over a decade. What are we waiting for?
Concur 100 percent. Loved Kirk but he needs to go! He put family before Iowa football and that's inexcusable. Shit like that is why nepotism is generally a very bad idea. Always hard to fire family which is what Kirk should have done a couple years before the pressure was too much and he had no choice. I think Fran needs to go as well; wish Beth would have fired him and brought in Darian DeVries from Drake, but West Virginia snatched him up. In 14 years Fran's taken us to the NCAA tourney on 7 occasions (one was the play in round) and never made it out of the 2nd round. In 13 seasons Tom Davis took us to the NCAA tourney 9 times, making it to the Elite 8 once and the Sweet 16 twice. To borrow a phrase from Obi-Wan Kenobi, Fran is not Droid we're looking for. So from my foxhole both Fran and Kirk need to go. They're past their prime or can't win with the talent they brought in.
I've already posted my opinion on Tom. In my opinion, he either needs to send Terry to HWC or another HC job and replace the rest of his staff with fresh new offensive minded assistants who can lure top tier talent to Iowa and improve that talent once at Iowa, or we need to pay DT whatever it takes and say farewell to an Iowa legend. Currently, based on what I've seen on the mat this year, I have zero faith in our current assistants recruiting top tier talent outside of Iowa or improving the talent to effectively wrestle at a level commensurate with what we should expect from an Iowa wrestler. This dogshit style of 6 minutes and 10 seconds of handfighting and the other 50 seconds (unless you're Caliendo) used to get one takedown isn't cutting it.
And even more anger and desperation. The curse of life is that you get what you want.
Apples and oranges. The Patsies sucked since Brady left. Never liked them anyway, but I don't watch pro sports very much.
Coaching decisions should be based on performance, and a lot of other things too (culture, tradition, fit, etc.). If you think that a coaching change will fix all of Iowa men's wrestling problems, then you are delusional, unless that change is accompanied by much more money (beyond the new facility), FAR better marketing, and more patient fans. Vodka, you are living proof that the last bit isn't going to happen anytime soon.
As much as I appreciate your passion about this (and I really like you), I can't agree with your solution at this time. Besides, something tells me that Tom may hang it up fairly soon anyway, so all the torch-bearers may get their wish, and the rest of us will find out if they were right.
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If there is a curse in wrestling, Iowa just experienced a cursed year. Ever since Spencer went down it's been an extremely rocky road. Then from the gambling suspensions on and off again saga, to the Ferrari debacles. Noone could wish that year on their worst enemy. All were one time events that are now in the past.
To be honest, with perspective I think the Iowa program will look back at this period ending with the Nationals performance as the bottom. The pressure the AD is placing on Tom is likely a very good thing and may drive some introspection and change for a guy who otherwise seems very set in his ways. I truly believe the trajectory is upward from here not downward.
Tom is a very very good coach and the roster is now younger and hungrier. I expect some positive portal action soon as well to shore up a couple of weights. The other program to keep an eye on is of course Ohio State as they too are full of young talent and are eyeing #2 next year for sure. Both programs will be back and at the forefront as early as next year.
To be honest, with perspective I think the Iowa program will look back at this period ending with the Nationals performance as the bottom. The pressure the AD is placing on Tom is likely a very good thing and may drive some introspection and change for a guy who otherwise seems very set in his ways. I truly believe the trajectory is upward from here not downward.
Tom is a very very good coach and the roster is now younger and hungrier. I expect some positive portal action soon as well to shore up a couple of weights. The other program to keep an eye on is of course Ohio State as they too are full of young talent and are eyeing #2 next year for sure. Both programs will be back and at the forefront as early as next year.
I believed that at the time and believe it now. IMO Spencer’s career has been significantly damaged by TnT because they were too selfish to consider what was best for him.
I get it now: you think you’re actually posting analysis and have a clear sense of who reads this board and what they know. I see your confusion. The video is a composed piece of ‘content’ meant to inform and entertain; the ‘analysis’ is just part of the message. Your posts in contrast have zero substance or durability in terms of contributing to meaningful discourse. None. Don’t feel bad—it’s much easier to post broad and dismissive comments on a message board than it is to generate actual content that could be of use to anyone.
Without gamblegate we easily finish second. Problem is second sucks.
Spencer’s wrestling future may have been significantly damaged, but wasn't that Spencer's decision? Just asking, Art.
Just like it was Carter Storocci's decision at B1Gs? Athletes always think they can go. Coaches have to reign them in at times for the wrestler's best interests.
True, his wrestling future. And it was his decision, but IMO TnT took advantage of his loyalty. I have to believe if he had wrestled elsewhere he would not have shutdown his freestyle wrestling for several years.
I think i counted 19 PSU votes for keeping TT
just curious. How many more points you think assad cobe brands cass gets us?
Assad, Brands, and Cass provided 25.5 points in 2023, so 2nd was certainly in the cards. Their points probably don't affect PSU much, but wrestlers on teams 2-4 this year likely lose placement points to Brands and Cass. Iowa margin over 3rd place would have been probably around 25 points.
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You can hold that opinion if it makes you feel good. Your video is still useless and lazily done.
Spencer should have a say in it but it should be the coaches final decision. I remember watching him in the dual against Iowa State. He had no business being out there. He gassed in the 1st period, creating a higher likelhood of getting injured. Fortunately, he did not get hurt but what if he did. Athletes at their level will always want to compete. Look at the Penn State situation with Carter. He wanted to wrestle, Cael said no. Watching him at Nationals, it was obviously the right call.
I'm sure I know who you are talking about. I'm good friends with your uncle.
My uncle or great uncle? Great uncle (married to the woman in question) has been dead like 25 years lol!I'm sure I know who you are talking about. I'm good friends with your uncle.
She was so pissed at the time, this thread brought up a bunch of memories of that!
