Mike Daniels on Gottlieb

[ghostOfHomer777]

I don’t really get how people can defend that guy. He sounded like an asshole. I would have fired him for the statement he released about how he’s never been unethical. That was just bizarre

A few things ...

First off, Doyle is one of the best in the business at developing players ... period. He produced results.

Secondly, while Doyle has gotten portrayed by some as being "racist" ... that doesn't characterize him whatsoever. He could certainly be a dick ... but in the world of football, being a dick is hardly a fireable offense.

If Iowa had a system in place wherein the players could feel empowered to voice concerns about isolated offenses ... then Doyle would have received much needed feedback that some of his dick-comments could be viewed as being racially inflammatory/insensitive. With such feedback ... Doyle's comments would have remained isolated and he would have been more reflective about the things he'd say to his players (taking those few extra moments to think before you say something ... priceless).

Part of the fault, as much as anything, is actually attributable to Ferentz for having the "Iowa way" be a bit too constraining as it relates to how the players could present themselves to the rest of the world. That is on Ferentz ... Doyle was simply the enforcer. However, all the same, that aspect of the "Iowa way" contributed as much as anything to some players feeling that their racial identity/voice was being repressed. Again, had there been a better feedback mechanism in place ... Ferentz would have changed this aspect of the "Iowa way" long ago. Ferentz obviously has no desire to have his players feel as though they must "walk on eggshells."

The "shame" of the matter is that Doyle's ill-behaviors remained unchecked ... and, by not realizing how his comments were being perceived, I bet that Doyle never realized how racially charged his comments really were. Consequently, a sequence of isolated events were able to grow more into a trend. It was then that trend that got Doyle fired.

People "defend that guy" ... because this whole thing was preventable.

You're oversimplifying things by suggesting that Doyle is simply a piece of shit who should be discarded accordingly. Life isn't that simple.

 

[24 so far]

Sounds like a good example of Doyle being a jerk. A LOT of time and expense was dedicated to recruiting that player and if he was chased away simply because he had never been exposed to discipline minded, possibly vindictive coach, that is terrible. That freshman was 17 or 18. Doyle should have corrected him and left it alone. Give the player a chance to learn from his mistakes.

Anybody that has ever played sports in their lifetime has encountered a Coach who is a "jerk", at least in their eyes. I had plenty of them playing multiple sports every single year in my youth. With multiple Assistants in every sport, that's a lot of Coaches. Thing is, they didn't scar me for life, nor did I cry to Mommy that my Coach was a "meanie" and try to get them fired.

This might astound some of you clowns, but ALL human beings are flawed. In my perfect world every single Coach on the planet would be put thru this wringer, and subsequently quit or get fired for every transgression, real or imagined. Then the "hand wringers" can start bitching about not being able to find anyone willing to teach their little angel how to play a sport.

Karma has a way, and you glass house folks aren't exempt from it. That's where the real beauty comes in.

 

[sultanofsuede]

Mike Daniels played at Iowa 2008-2011.

LeShun (2013-2016) and James (2015-2017) are brothers and played at Iowa together.

Google is a wonderful thing.

Not my best day on HR. I’ll do better next time.

 

[Hawk and Awe]

A few things ...

First off, Doyle is one of the best in the business at developing players ... period. He produced results.

Secondly, while Doyle has gotten portrayed by some as being "racist" ... that doesn't characterize him whatsoever. He could certainly be a dick ... but in the world of football, being a dick is hardly a fireable offense.

If Iowa had a system in place wherein the players could feel empowered to voice concerns about isolated offenses ... then Doyle would have received much needed feedback that some of his dick-comments could be viewed as being racially inflammatory/insensitive. With such feedback ... Doyle's comments would have remained isolated and he would have been more reflective about the things he'd say to his players (taking those few extra moments to think before you say something ... priceless).

Part of the fault, as much as anything, is actually attributable to Ferentz for having the "Iowa way" be a bit too constraining as it relates to how the players could present themselves to the rest of the world. That is on Ferentz ... Doyle was simply the enforcer. However, all the same, that aspect of the "Iowa way" contributed as much as anything to some players feeling that their racial identity/voice was being repressed. Again, had there been a better feedback mechanism in place ... Ferentz would have changed this aspect of the "Iowa way" long ago. Ferentz obviously has no desire to have his players feel as though they must "walk on eggshells."

The "shame" of the matter is that Doyle's ill-behaviors remained unchecked ... and, by not realizing how his comments were being perceived, I bet that Doyle never realized how racially charged his comments really were. Consequently, a sequence of isolated events were able to grow more into a trend. It was then that trend that got Doyle fired.

People "defend that guy" ... because this whole thing was preventable.

You're oversimplifying things by suggesting that Doyle is simply a piece of shit who should be discarded accordingly. Life isn't that simple.

That makes quite a bit of sense. Very well put. For all its greatness - that organization has a major weakness with planning. The black eyes recently to the athletic program and the children’s hospital were very avoidable.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

That makes quite a bit of sense. Very well put. For all its greatness - that organization has a major weakness with planning. The black eyes recently to the athletic program and the children’s hospital were very avoidable.

Now should he have been fired given the circumstances? ... well, sure. Certainly, a guy who policed his players ... advocating personal responsibility ... live by the sword, die by the sword. Doyle still had every opportunity to self-police his own actions ... and yet he still made those mistakes. If he had only taken a few missteps ... but gotten those corrected in a more timely fashion ... and realized (and admitted) the error in his ways - then strong arguments could made for him simply getting a strong rebuke (but not fired).

However, the fact that behaviors went unchecked for the time that it had - the firing HAD to occur, if for no other reason than to reestablish trust with the players. In any instance like this - those who are not power, at the very least, want their voices to be heard. Had Doyle NOT been fired ... then it would have been a direct message to the players that their concerns were NOT being heard (and NOT taken seriously).

But now that the correction has been made. Should Doyle be permanently blacklisted from doing the job he loves elsewhere? There I'd say ... absolutely not. I genuinely hope that he receives a second chance. A similar argument holds should an individual without power takes a misstep too ... should their actions be corrected suitably early ... then obviously a second chance ought to be granted. If not ... then they can get their second chance elsewhere.

 

[BirdistheWord]

He said Glenville. Bomani Jones from ESPN ran with the false narrative of ghetto

Shocking that no one corrected that or fact checked.

 

[DavidHawk324]

I'm OK with Iowa cutting ties with Doyle, but Bomani Jones should be immediately fired for doing that. It should also eliminate him from future jobs he may want. It's unacceptable in the workplace.

I’m not a Bomani Jones fan, but he wasn’t the one who first claimed that Doyle said “send you back to the ghetto”. Pryor tweeted it as “ghetto”. Then only a few days later when ESPN ran an article, did he clarify that Doyle said “Glenville” and tried to argue that Doyle implied “ghetto” by saying “Glenville”. So Bomani just followed Pryor’s initial lie.

 

[ClarindaA's]

I’m not a Bomani Jones fan, but he wasn’t the one who first claimed that Doyle said “send you back to the ghetto”. Pryor tweeted it as “ghetto”. Then only a few days later when ESPN ran an article, did he clarify that Doyle said “Glenville” and tried to argue that Doyle implied “ghetto” by saying “Glenville”. So Bomani just followed Pryor’s initial lie.

Bomani already knew that when he was on the LeBatardc show running his shit talking narrative

 

[blackandgoldPT]

Wow - I had no idea MD was playing DL in the nfl. Yeah - was only referring to his brother (James).

Take a lap

 

[SWIowahawks]

I don’t really get how people can defend that guy. He sounded like an asshole. I would have fired him for the statement he released about how he’s never been unethical. That was just bizarre

You’d fire your second in command for releasing a poorly time statement rather than what you witnessed for 20 years?

 

[hawkeyekid]

I’m not a Bomani Jones fan, but he wasn’t the one who first claimed that Doyle said “send you back to the ghetto”. Pryor tweeted it as “ghetto”. Then only a few days later when ESPN ran an article, did he clarify that Doyle said “Glenville” and tried to argue that Doyle implied “ghetto” by saying “Glenville”. So Bomani just followed Pryor’s initial lie.

Well, he should have been more careful. Pryor should never have another job either. He clearly lied to start and then connected Glenville to a ghetto. Glenville is not a ghetto and Pryor and Jones should be ashamed for connecting the two together.

 

[hawkeyebob62]

I am living proof of that fact. I do have a super power of making the coolest thing very uncool when I participate.

You can do that, too? We must be related!

 

[hawkeyebob62]

That is racist.

Except when you are able to use yourself as proof. Which I can. At every wedding to which I am dragged. And where I am "forced" to ingest alcohol.

 

[INXS83]

Big difference. White people actually CAN'T dance, so it's just stating facts.

Wrong! Tom Hiddleston, Sam Rockwell and Jimmy Fallon destroy your statement. You are performing racial stereotyping.

 

[Fan In Black]

Back when we were recruiting Pryor's younger brother ... I was always perplexed why we didn't seem to get much interest from the guy. Doyle certainly seemed to have "poisoned the well" in that instance.

Sucked ... the younger Pryor was one hell of a DB prospect.

wow I had no ides that Richard Pryors brother played at Iowa

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

Well, he should have been more careful. Pryor should never have another job either. He clearly lied to start and then connected Glenville to a ghetto. Glenville is not a ghetto and Pryor and Jones should be ashamed for connecting the two together.

Pryor was a former walk-on at Iowa ... and witnessed the "joke" he recounted first-hand.

As for retweeting "ghetto" ... that was certainly just spreading hearsay ... and that's quite irresponsible. However, a retweet is far different than something considered 'officially' on the record.

It's foolish to suggest that Pryor was lying (at least about the primary exchange that he brought to light).

I honestly wonder if Doyle was really so stupid and/or insensitive to not realize that the "joke" connects to slavery. Some folks are ....

(post edited for accuracy ... thanks for the correction from my fellow posters)

 

[kceasthawk]

I'm OK with Iowa cutting ties with Doyle, but Bomani Jones should be immediately fired for doing that. It should also eliminate him from future jobs he may want. It's unacceptable in the workplace.

Won't happen, but I'd love to see Wilbon and Kornheiser hit the road as well........

 

[HerkyHopeful]

Pryor was a former walk-on at Iowa ... and witnessed the "joke" he recounted first-hand.

As for retweeting "ghetto" ... that was certainly just spreading hearsay ... and that's quite irresponsible. However, a retweet is far different than something considered 'officially' on the record.

If you're not familiar ... Pryor is legacy ... his father being a former Hawk. That's why he walked on. However, what he observed was likely the reason why his brother didn't seriously pursue Iowa.

It's foolish to suggest that Pryor was lying (at least about the primary exchange that he brought to light).

I honestly wonder if Doyle was really so stupid and/or insensitive to not realize that the "joke" connects to slavery. Some folks are ....

Terrance Pryor is from Illinois. His dads name is Terry, not Robert

 

[hawkeyebob62]

Wrong! Tom Hiddleston, Sam Rockwell and Jimmy Fallon destroy your statement. You are performing racial stereotyping.

If you call what Jimmy Fallon does "dancing", I concede. Otherwise...

 

[INXS83]

If you call what Jimmy Fallon does "dancing", I concede. Otherwise...

I only included Fallon because he and Rockwell had a dance-off on Fallon's show and he wasn't bad. Rockwell is amazing.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

Terrance Pryor is from Illinois. His dads name is Terry, not Robert

Thanks for the clarification.

I was apparently making some erroneous assumptions. I had falsely assumed the guys were directly related. Not the case ... thanks.

 

[denmar81]

You all should listen to an interview Felicia Goodson gave last year. But the SJWs in here wouldn't believe it, anyway, so no sense linking it.

Link it, I want to hear it. Liked her interview on Nebraska Hawks Nest.

 

[Obviously Oblivious]

Anybody that has ever played sports in their lifetime has encountered a Coach who is a "jerk", at least in their eyes. I had plenty of them playing multiple sports every single year in my youth. With multiple Assistants in every sport, that's a lot of Coaches. Thing is, they didn't scar me for life, nor did I cry to Mommy that my Coach was a "meanie" and try to get them fired.

This might astound some of you clowns, but ALL human beings are flawed. In my perfect world every single Coach on the planet would be put thru this wringer, and subsequently quit or get fired for every transgression, real or imagined. Then the "hand wringers" can start bitching about not being able to find anyone willing to teach their little angel how to play a sport.

Karma has a way, and you glass house folks aren't exempt from it. That's where the real beauty comes in.

I agree with you completely, most athletes at every level have experienced a "jerk" coach or two. I still believe that Coach Doyle could have saved his job at Iowa if he had taken the advice given to him and worked thoughtfully through the process that would have been laid out for him.

Ultimately, HE DECIDED the outcome of his future at Iowa and if there's blame to go around, it falls squarely at his own feet, no one else's.

 

[Roy-munson]

It was Diante morrow who said “Doyle told me he would send me back to glennville. And we all know what he meant by that “Grenville”.”

 

[DavidHawk324]

It was Diante morrow who said “Doyle told me he would send me back to glennville. And we all know what he meant by that “Grenville”.”

You are half correct. I thought it was Pryor but it was Morrow. That said, his initial comment did not state “Glenville” and then tell us what he thought that implied. He claimed Doyle said Ghetto and then several days later gave his actual account where Doyle didn’t actually say Ghetto.

 

[mlb1399]

I don’t really get how people can defend that guy. He sounded like an asshole. I would have fired him for the statement he released about how he’s never been unethical. That was just bizarre

Strength and conditioning, like football, isn’t tap dancing. Every S&C I had in HS or college had an edge about them. Doesn’t excuse being a racist IF it’s true. But you don’t fire someone just because they say something that might hurt your feelings.

 

[obfuscating]

What a great listen
'Did you develop your own workouts?'
'My own touch to it, I learned from all the great weight sensi Coach Doyle......'
'Coach Doyle you mentioned was legendary strength coach Chris Doyle at Iowa, in you experience, just you what is your reaction to what lead to his career downfall?'
"Exactly what you said, I went from a 2 star 207 pound running back to a 290 pound All B1G, draftable, defensive tackle, stud. That perfectly sums up my experience at Iowa"

But but but Doyle is a racist...

I guess the minority that were in the dog house, didn't make the pros and didn't get enough attention are the ones that are complaining.

When the guy still has his under studies saying he was the best, still friends, etc.. I really question the validity of what those few are saying. They ruined a guys career because of their feelings...

 

[obfuscating]

Strength and conditioning, like football, isn’t tap dancing. Every S&C I had in HS or college had an edge about them. Doesn’t excuse being a racist IF it’s true. But you don’t fire someone just because they say something that might hurt your feelings.

Today's world is coddling and it shows, when the crap hits the fan these folks won't be there, they will talk tough and then fade back and let the others go first.

How Trigger Warnings Are Hurting Mental Health on Campus

College students are increasingly demanding protection from words and ideas they don’t like. Here’s why that’s disastrous for education.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[KFsdisciple]

Sounds like a good example of Doyle being a jerk. A LOT of time and expense was dedicated to recruiting that player and if he was chased away simply because he had never been exposed to discipline minded, possibly vindictive coach, that is terrible. That freshman was 17 or 18. Doyle should have corrected him and left it alone. Give the player a chance to learn from his mistakes.

Being a jerk isn't racism. We've all had a boss that pushed us harder than we wanted to be pushed, but made us better.

 

[obfuscating]

Being a jerk isn't racism. We've all had a boss that pushed us harder than we wanted to be pushed, but made us better.

In today's world being a jerk is equal to racist if you are white.

The Atlanta shooting (which is horrible) was immediately labeled as a hate crime because the majority of the victims were Asian shot by a white man. The Boulder shooting (equally as horrible) was labeled a medical issue yet all victims were white and the shooter was middle-eastern.

The coddling has given the weak minded faux power with "words are weapons" and "what doesn't kill you makes you weaker".

 

[Hawk and Awe]

Being a jerk isn't racism. We've all had a boss that pushed us harder than we wanted to be pushed, but made us better.

I’ve worked with lots of jerks and a handful of great leaders that could be effective without being a prick. The handful provided more growth and received more production from me.

I believe there’s a ton of jerks (or bad leaders) out there that perpetuate this myth that it’s the only way to “get stuff done”. There are so many of you that the others think it must be true! And since you worked with jerk bosses and you are great it must have been the jerk boss that got you there.

And that doesn’t mean everybody gets a trophy or nobody ever gets yelled at. There is a middle ground and I don’t think Doyle was anywhere near it. You can coach young men and respect them.

 

[KFsdisciple]

I’ve worked with lots of jerks and a handful of great leaders that could be effective without being a prick. The handful provided more growth and received more production from me.

I believe there’s a ton of jerks (or bad leaders) out there that perpetuate this myth that it’s the only way to “get stuff done”. There are so many of you that the others think it must be true! And since you worked with jerk bosses and you are great it must have been the jerk boss that got you there.

And that doesn’t mean everybody gets a trophy or nobody ever gets yelled at. There is a middle ground and I don’t think Doyle was anywhere near it. You can coach young men and respect them.

The charge in the court of public opinion, and actual court is racism, not being a prick. Chris is no longer with the Hawkeyes or the Jaguars not because he was mean, but because the woke brigade canceled him due to racism.

 

[Hawk and Awe]

The charge in the court of public opinion, and actual court is racism, not being a prick. Chris is no longer with the Hawkeyes or the Jaguars not because he was mean, but because the woke brigade canceled him due to racism.

You lost me with the “woke brigade”.

It’s really not that hard to not get accused of making racist comments. And then when you get accused - it’s even easier to accept some responsibility and reflect on how you can do better. He could not accomplish either.

I think it’s a bummer, not fair and others played a role that faced no consequence, but avoiding this scenario is part of his job.

 

[KFsdisciple]

You lost me with the “woke brigade”.

It’s really not that hard to not get accused of making racist comments. And then when you get accused - it’s even easier to accept some responsibility and reflect on how you can do better. He could not accomplish either.

I think it’s a bummer, not fair and others played a role that faced no consequence, but avoiding this scenario is part of his job.

The spirit of the age is the issue here. As you stated he was accused. He doesn’t have to own responsibility for accusations, especially if they aren’t true or even based in reality.

It’s not just Doyle’s job to accept that responsibility. Nor on the advice of legal counsel should he admit any guilt or accept and liability without proof.

What you suggested may have even been the easier path, accept responsibility for something, ask for forgiveness, and maybe he resigns and everyone moves on... but it takes character and resolve to stand for something, to respect yourself enough to say no I’m not going to admit to something I didn’t do.

on a separate note, that doesn’t mean the “Iowa way” didn’t resonate well with today’s youth, especially POC who likely weren’t used to the demands and culture of the program and the environment in which they found themselves.

However, it turns out many of the complaints had no merit like players couldn’t have dreads when you can find clear examples of guys like Bob Sanders and Abdul Hodge in the early years through Adrian Clayborn, and to current guys that this was a totally made up thing. Tattoos... fake news...

it probably wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows and there’s a lot of stuff that wasn’t in the recruiting brochure, or even in all the legions of media stories that praised Doyle and the S&C program that had been written over the 2 decades of service and dedication Doyle gave to the Iowa football program.

 

[Hawk and Awe]

The spirit of the age is the issue here. As you stated he was accused. He doesn’t have to own responsibility for accusations, especially if they aren’t true or even based in reality.

It’s not just Doyle’s job to accept that responsibility. Nor on the advice of legal counsel should he admit any guilt or accept and liability without proof.

What you suggested may have even been the easier path, accept responsibility for something, ask for forgiveness, and maybe he resigns and everyone moves on... but it takes character and resolve to stand for something, to respect yourself enough to say no I’m not going to admit to something I didn’t do.

on a separate note, that doesn’t mean the “Iowa way” didn’t resonate well with today’s youth, especially POC who likely weren’t used to the demands and culture of the program and the environment in which they found themselves.

However, it turns out many of the complaints had no merit like players couldn’t have dreads when you can find clear examples of guys like Bob Sanders and Abdul Hodge in the early years through Adrian Clayborn, and to current guys that this was a totally made up thing. Tattoos... fake news...

it probably wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows and there’s a lot of stuff that wasn’t in the recruiting brochure, or even in all the legions of media stories that praised Doyle and the S&C program that had been written over the 2 decades of service and dedication Doyle gave to the Iowa football program.

I’ll tell you what’s weird to me.

There are lots of people out there desperate to be offended and punish anyone responsible (the woke brigade or cancel culture). What really bothers me is there’s no room for nuance, gray area or empathy/understanding. It’s a real problem.

How you’re describing this situation is as if Doyle did nothing wrong or acted in anyway inappropriate. I mean.... Doyle said he’s not a racist and Bob Sanders agrees so we should just be done here? The fact that they work in a casual, intense environment with college kids makes that more unlikely IMO, but that isn’t even the point - where’s the gray area or nuance? It’s the same problem.

 

[obfuscating]

I’ve worked with lots of jerks and a handful of great leaders that could be effective without being a prick. The handful provided more growth and received more production from me.

I believe there’s a ton of jerks (or bad leaders) out there that perpetuate this myth that it’s the only way to “get stuff done”. There are so many of you that the others think it must be true! And since you worked with jerk bosses and you are great it must have been the jerk boss that got you there.

And that doesn’t mean everybody gets a trophy or nobody ever gets yelled at. There is a middle ground and I don’t think Doyle was anywhere near it. You can coach young men and respect them.

Our soldiers are softer now due to this "trigger" effect of words and tough love. Watching and hearing how they are treated now compared to when I went through, yeah I'll take the jerk DI that gives equal opportunity ass chewing over the new "stress card" soldiers. If this continues our country will be more limp wristed then France with white flags.

Once the tough love left this country, so did the majority of backbone (hence the coddling of the minds on campus now).

 

[obfuscating]

I’ll tell you what’s weird to me.

There are lots of people out there desperate to be offended and punish anyone responsible (the woke brigade or cancel culture). What really bothers me is there’s no room for nuance, gray area or empathy/understanding. It’s a real problem.

How you’re describing this situation is as if Doyle did nothing wrong or acted in anyway inappropriate. I mean.... Doyle said he’s not a racist and Bob Sanders agrees so we should just be done here? The fact that they work in a casual, intense environment with college kids makes that more unlikely IMO, but that isn’t even the point - where’s the gray area or nuance? It’s the same problem.

Grace has been lost.

 

[obfuscating]

You lost me with the “woke brigade”.

It’s really not that hard to not get accused of making racist comments. And then when you get accused - it’s even easier to accept some responsibility and reflect on how you can do better. He could not accomplish either.

I think it’s a bummer, not fair and others played a role that faced no consequence, but avoiding this scenario is part of his job.

Do you take responsibility when you are accused or when you are found guilty? I thought it was innocent until proven guilty, not "just give in and take part of the accusation(s). His peers and understudies (that were of all races) said he was a stand up guy, still is, still best friends with them - why would a black remain friends with someone that was racist?

 

[NorthDSMHawk]

It’s really not that hard to not get accused of making racist comments. And then when you get accused - it’s even easier to accept some responsibility and reflect on how you can do better. He could not accomplish either.

Can you give us a summary of all the "racist comments" attributed to him? I can think of two off the top of my head, the "ghetto" comment, which apparently was bullshit anyway, and the boat "joke". By itself, the comment sounds bad, no doubt. But in the end we're left with one accusation of a racist joke over the course of 20+ years. We're also taking the "joke" as described at face value, when it's certainly possible there's embellishment thrown in, like we saw in the "ghetto" comment. Could it have happened as described? Certainly. Could it also be bullshit, or 75% bullshit? Also possible.

 

[iahawkeyes17]

Problem is with those who throw around the race card and use it so carelessly only hurt and make it more difficult for the ones who actually suffer from racial abuse. It’s almost sadly becoming like the boy who cried wolf.