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texting and driving is the negligence du jour and was the center around sailor's post. If there is another form of negligence that causes the amount of death and destruction and is the focus of so many ad campaigns, then we can look at current laws (or proposed laws) and go from there.

I realize that the drinking and driving laws (and penalties) don't stop people from drunk driving into things, but the penalties are a lot stiffer than the texting and driving laws that are on the books today
Pretty much the same argument in favor of stiffer penalties for hate crimes or crimes committed with guns. Some will argue that a crime is a crime, period, and those things shouldn't matter; others that it's reasonable for society to make those distinctions.
 
So what motivated you to own one? If you aren't doing wheelies down the interstate at 90mph, what's the point? You aren't going impress girls by going the speed limit, that's for sure.
Funny I had more girls on the back of those bikes going the speed limit up and down 1st Ave than ever in my car(s). I liked the look and sound. Always wore a helmet too...
 
So you're the one....I knew you were out there somewhere.
Always have wore a helmet. Now that my boys have moto's (yes one is a rocket - CBR1000RR) they wear helmets, jackets, gloves, etc and as far as I know the oldest has yet to test the full throttle of his... the middle son putts around so the chicks can "take it all in"... hahaha

Mind you, I did do a wheelie or two, but never near traffic\public or with other on my back.
 
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To be fair to every one posting in this thread.
Thank you.
Thank you for all of your thoughts.Conversations are nice.
You probably see these douchebag motorcycle videos and think this is how a lot of people ride.

Most people like me ride for the fun and enjoyment.I don't ride to pop wheelies.I don't ride with a doo-rag to be cool.
I don't ride to ride to the next bar.I save the drinking for after the ride.
I don't ride to be a part of some crowd.I actually hate crowds.I ride a motorcycle because I like to ride a motorcycle.That's all.

Vast majority of motorcyclists I see are in no hurry to get anywhere and drive very "normally", but two/lane. Never had a problem, even before/after the big rallies on 80.
 
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Pretty much the same argument in favor of stiffer penalties for hate crimes or crimes committed with guns. Some will argue that a crime is a crime, period, and those things shouldn't matter; others that it's reasonable for society to make those distinctions.

And that is exactly what I disagree with. Society shouldn't make those distinctions because they don't know/care about the facts other than rigid classifications such as "hate" and "gun". They should be left for the person we deemed qualified to decide: a Judge. Why have a judge if we don't want them judging?

I mean shit we pay our district court judges in Iowa like $140k...shouldn't we want some decisions for that money?
 
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And that is exactly what I disagree with. Society shouldn't make those distinctions because they don't know/care about the facts other than rigid classifications such as "hate" and "gun". They should be left for the person we deemed qualified to decide: a Judge. Why have a judge if we don't want them judging?

I mean shit we pay our district court judges in Iowa like $140k...shouldn't we want some decisions for that money?
I prefer judges to operate within clear boundaries. Sometimes we get those boundaries wrong (3 strikes, for example) but reasonable consistency from judge to judge is absolutely necessary if we are going to have a "justice" system.

Even if I disagree with making crimes where guns are used punishable by stiffer sentences (and there are some decent reasons to disagree), I nevertheless think this is well within the range of choices a democracy is entitled to make - if they believe guns, or hate, or texting are serious enough problems to deserve special attention.

Sure, I like judges being able to justify deviations from standard sentencing guidelines when they are warranted. But they should have to make the case and not be able to indulge racial prejudice or religious prejudice or whim to do whatever they want.
 
I prefer judges to operate within clear boundaries. Sometimes we get those boundaries wrong (3 strikes, for example) but reasonable consistency from judge to judge is absolutely necessary if we are going to have a "justice" system.

Even if I disagree with making crimes where guns are used punishable by stiffer sentences (and there are some decent reasons to disagree), I nevertheless think this is well within the range of choices a democracy is entitled to make - if they believe guns, or hate, or texting are serious enough problems to deserve special attention.

Sure, I like judges being able to justify deviations from standard sentencing guidelines when they are warranted. But they should have to make the case and not be able to indulge racial prejudice or religious prejudice or whim to do whatever they want.

Isn't there something inherently "fair" and within "justice" of having a locally-established Judge determine the range of your punishment? I mean we believe that it should be a "jury of your peers" shouldn't similar for a judge be true?

Also, blindly making crimes "with guns" more punishable simply removes the discretion of the judge on that issue. For example: Iowa has laws (probably many states do) that you commit a standard crime (say possession of drugs, or resisting arrest/interference) but have a *Gasp* gun on you while doing so you have no committed a "worse" crime. Sure, facially that seems worse, right? You were using the gun to break the law! Or were you? You have a Constitutional right to be armed, you have a legal permit to carry, but because you had drugs on you, or you didn't immediately comply with officers you are now further punished then someone who committed a worse/same version of that offense yet carried no gun? That makes no sense. It uses your Constitutional right against you....solely because you were also breaking the law.

Sure, I get it, if you carry a weapon you have more responsibility, blah blah blah, you should know better....except that just ignores (imo) the Constitution. If you are possessing drugs do you lose your right to free speech? Religion? Of course not. But let's say you buy in to the more responsibility mush, how far can the line go? Speeding with a gun is now jailable? Jaywalking with a gun is now imprisonable?

Or, alternatively, it is one of the many various factors our judges can use to determine how to punish you. i.e. you never actually used the gun, never came out of your holster, wasn't even loaded, etc. therefore no further punishment, vs. attempting to reach for the gun while running away.

When we create laws they must necessarily be rigid and fairly bright-line in order to enforce them and do so Constitutionally. That, to me, is why we have Judges to apply the law within an applicable range of sentences. NOT for a Federal judge to open his sentencing spreadsheet, slide his finger down the list until he hits the right matrix.

Oh, and "hate crimes" are absurd from a fundamental theory standpoint, but I don't need to discuss that.
 
Isn't there something inherently "fair" and within "justice" of having a locally-established Judge determine the range of your punishment? I mean we believe that it should be a "jury of your peers" shouldn't similar for a judge be true?

Also, blindly making crimes "with guns" more punishable simply removes the discretion of the judge on that issue. For example: Iowa has laws (probably many states do) that you commit a standard crime (say possession of drugs, or resisting arrest/interference) but have a *Gasp* gun on you while doing so you have no committed a "worse" crime. Sure, facially that seems worse, right? You were using the gun to break the law! Or were you? You have a Constitutional right to be armed, you have a legal permit to carry, but because you had drugs on you, or you didn't immediately comply with officers you are now further punished then someone who committed a worse/same version of that offense yet carried no gun? That makes no sense. It uses your Constitutional right against you....solely because you were also breaking the law.

Sure, I get it, if you carry a weapon you have more responsibility, blah blah blah, you should know better....except that just ignores (imo) the Constitution. If you are possessing drugs do you lose your right to free speech? Religion? Of course not. But let's say you buy in to the more responsibility mush, how far can the line go? Speeding with a gun is now jailable? Jaywalking with a gun is now imprisonable?

Or, alternatively, it is one of the many various factors our judges can use to determine how to punish you. i.e. you never actually used the gun, never came out of your holster, wasn't even loaded, etc. therefore no further punishment, vs. attempting to reach for the gun while running away.

When we create laws they must necessarily be rigid and fairly bright-line in order to enforce them and do so Constitutionally. That, to me, is why we have Judges to apply the law within an applicable range of sentences. NOT for a Federal judge to open his sentencing spreadsheet, slide his finger down the list until he hits the right matrix.

Oh, and "hate crimes" are absurd from a fundamental theory standpoint, but I don't need to discuss that.
It's all a question of what you are trying to accomplish with the law.

I happen to like your 3rd paragraph. And I already said that there are some decent reasons to be against stiffer penalties for gun involvement in other crimes.

I'd like to hear your argument against hate crimes. Or, if you are up to the challenge, why not make the argument for added hate crime penalties?
 
It's all a question of what you are trying to accomplish with the law.

I happen to like your 3rd paragraph. And I already said that there are some decent reasons to be against stiffer penalties for gun involvement in other crimes.

I'd like to hear your argument against hate crimes. Or, if you are up to the challenge, why not make the argument for added hate crime penalties?

If it's a hate crime against an employer, I'm for the death penalty.
 
I really haven't got much traction here on HROT about texting aholes causing accidents.I'd love to see some statistics about cellphone/texting usage when it comes to automobile accidents.

And yet we have the knee jerkers that hate sport bikers/crotch rockets.I'm not really sure what that really means.Can we lump in the retarded looking doo-rag weekend warriors too?Or are they off limits because they ride slow ass cruisers of whatever country of manufacture?
 
It's all a question of what you are trying to accomplish with the law.

I happen to like your 3rd paragraph. And I already said that there are some decent reasons to be against stiffer penalties for gun involvement in other crimes.

I'd like to hear your argument against hate crimes. Or, if you are up to the challenge, why not make the argument for added hate crime penalties?

Fundamentally hate crimes are absurd designations, because all crime involves a level of "hate" or whatever term you so choose, they aren't committed against a victim out of love. Also, they are attempting to solely legislate intent, as opposed to the action itself. And intent, separated from the action, should be inherently protected, because it is basically speech/association/religion/whatever. Combining it with the action shouldn't rid that protection.

Crime 1: Assault, a general intent crime (some states label as battery or a/b) of placing another person in reasonable fear of being harmed with the ability to do so. Or, more simply, hitting/pushing/kicking someone.

We don't want people to be assaulted so we legislate against it.

Crime 2: Same as 1, but with the added sub of "because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, or national origin of any person". So now we go from assault, which we don't want, to determining the reason for the assault, something that should be a sentencing aspect, not a conviction aspect. The crime isn't not liking the person of another race, the crime is the assault. This is evidenced by lack of laws outlawing discrimination without accompanying criminal action. In sentencing a judge should consider mitigating and aggravating circumstances. i.e. you punched the guy in the bar because he was groping your wife - light sentence vs. you punched the guy in the bar because he asked you to stop motorboating his wife - heavier sentence vs. punched a guy because he was black - even heavier sentence. See the "hate" part of should already be built right in, in the sentencing discretion.

Now in reality the "hate crime" statutes attempt to specifically legislate the punishment higher to override the discretion of a judge. (see above post in general). So a hate crime, for example, might elevate a misdemeanor (jail) assault directly to felony (prison). And the question, fundamentally, is always for what purpose? Is it really more important to stop a person from hitting a person because they are black as opposed to because they are ugly, or smug, or smelly, or annoying, or tall, or smart, or dumb, or hairy, or whatever? The end result is the same, the victim is punched, all you do with this is create levels of classifying victims, and needlessly so.

This is different from other classifications of victims, such as domestic assault. These laws don't protect inherent characteristics they protect relationships, sexual, familial, parental, etc. Those relationships require extra protection because they are more likely to be abused, more likely to be hidden from the public eye, and more prone to recidivism.

In a larger sense I am simply arguing against legislative enhancements. IMO they are simply confirmations that society "knows best" and we don't trust our appointed judges. If that is, in fact, the case then let's move on without them (although I think that even worse). Almost always they are rooted in an extreme overreaction. Using Kadyn's law for example, and just going off of the top of my head and memory, it was passed as a reaction to someone driving around a school bus and hitting a child exiting the bus, therefore we legislated much harsher, no discretion sentences. But, iirc, Kadyn was hit by a person who crossed a double yellow to pass the bus at 60 mph....and received 15 years in prison. This overreactionary law turned out to punish minor technicalities of the law, people who, even by the various prosecutions admission's, never passed the bus or created any danger. But the law was rigid, because we desperately need to stop the less than 10 deaths per year nationally by fining/revoking/imprisoning thousands of people. Here is the first article I googled discussing the rigidity: http://www.thegazette.com/subject/n...ns-law-doesnt-stop-dangerous-drivers-20140811

Now is that a hate crime example? No, it is just to demonstrate the overreaction of our society in legislation. We hear that someone was killed for being X race/religion/whatever and think, he only got 2 years?!?!?!? That needs to be 30! All while ignoring the fact that 99% of all similar cases have even lesser sentences.

But to simplify after writing this pointless drivel: The crime is assault, punish the crime, use discretion in doing so. Discretion should be for judges. Designating "hate" as a qualifier is extremely subjective, nearly impossible to correctly, objectively, determine and fundamentally pointless.
 
Back to the original post/story, here's the update:

GRANBURY (CBSDFW.COM) – A driver in Granbury over the weekend was captured on video swerving into a motorcycle on the road. The bike crashed and left two people injured. William ‘Bill’ Crum claims an insect bite caused him to momentarily lose control of his vehicle, but prosecutors are not buying that story.

CBS 11 uncovered the criminal past of a man who continues to insist that a spider bite forced him to swerve into a motorcyclist and his passenger.

Bill Crum spoke to reporters from the Hood County Jail Tuesday.

“Right there inside my leg,” Crum said showing cameras where he said the spider bit him. “I’m squeezing puss out of it. Maybe it will rot half my leg off and they’ll believe I was actually bit.”

The video that shows Crum crossing the double lines and crashing into a motorcyclist and passenger who were passing him illegally has gone viral on a global scale.

Crum can be heard saying “I don’t care” when confronted at the crash scene.

He explained that he didn’t feel remorse because the motorcyclist was breaking the traffic laws.

“I thought that he was one of these turds that was doing something wrong,” Crum said.

CBS 11 discovered that Crum’s wrap sheet dated back to the 90’s and involved charges of assault, reckless driving and terrorist threats.

Crum had little to say about the prior convictions.

His current charges include two counts of Aggravated Assault. He’s being held on $150,000 bond.

The motorcycle on Saturday was trying to illegally pass Crum’s car on the road. After it crossed over a double line, Crum’s car suddenly veered into the bike and then back into its own lane. The entire thing was caught on video by another biker.

Debra Simpson was the passenger on the crashed motorcycle. She remains hospitalized after suffering a broken wrist and deep lacerations from the crash and has needed more than one surgery. Eric Sanders was the driver of the motorcycle, and is Simpson’s boyfriend. He too was hurt when the bike wrecked out.

Simpson was moved out of ICU on Monday, but there is no word yet on when she will be able to leave the hospital.

Crum, 68, now faces two counts of aggravated assault. While he remains in jail for these alleged crimes this isn’t the first time Crum has been arrested. Records show he has also faced charges for everything from family violence assault, to unauthorized use of a motor vehicle, reckless driving, abusive calls to 911 and making a terroristic threat.

Deputies booked Crum into the Hood County Jail just after midnight on Tuesday, saying that he was uncooperative then and remained so later on Tuesday. His bond was set at $75,000 for each charge.

Before being arrested, Crum explained that the swerving was his reaction to a spider bite. However, he was captured on video saying “I don’t care” about the motorcycle crash and the two victims. “On that particular road,” Crum said, “I’ve seen them do wheelies at 60 mph, and I thought he was one of them. I didn’t know there was a passenger.”

If he is convicted, Crum could face 20 years in prison for each count. “He’s getting locked up,” said Sanders. “The state is filing charges on him, straight up.”
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/10/20/driver-arrested-for-granbury-motorcycle-crash/
 
Back to the original post/story, here's the update:

GRANBURY (CBSDFW.COM) – A driver in Granbury over the weekend was captured on video swerving into a motorcycle on the road. The bike crashed and left two people injured. William ‘Bill’ Crum claims an insect bite caused him to momentarily lose control of his vehicle, but prosecutors are not buying that story.

CBS 11 uncovered the criminal past of a man who continues to insist that a spider bite forced him to swerve into a motorcyclist and his passenger.

Bill Crum spoke to reporters from the Hood County Jail Tuesday.

“Right there inside my leg,” Crum said showing cameras where he said the spider bit him. “I’m squeezing puss out of it. Maybe it will rot half my leg off and they’ll believe I was actually bit.”

The video that shows Crum crossing the double lines and crashing into a motorcyclist and passenger who were passing him illegally has gone viral on a global scale.

Crum can be heard saying “I don’t care” when confronted at the crash scene.

He explained that he didn’t feel remorse because the motorcyclist was breaking the traffic laws.

“I thought that he was one of these turds that was doing something wrong,” Crum said.

CBS 11 discovered that Crum’s wrap sheet dated back to the 90’s and involved charges of assault, reckless driving and terrorist threats.

Crum had little to say about the prior convictions.

His current charges include two counts of Aggravated Assault. He’s being held on $150,000 bond.

The motorcycle on Saturday was trying to illegally pass Crum’s car on the road. After it crossed over a double line, Crum’s car suddenly veered into the bike and then back into its own lane. The entire thing was caught on video by another biker.

Debra Simpson was the passenger on the crashed motorcycle. She remains hospitalized after suffering a broken wrist and deep lacerations from the crash and has needed more than one surgery. Eric Sanders was the driver of the motorcycle, and is Simpson’s boyfriend. He too was hurt when the bike wrecked out.

Simpson was moved out of ICU on Monday, but there is no word yet on when she will be able to leave the hospital.

Crum, 68, now faces two counts of aggravated assault. While he remains in jail for these alleged crimes this isn’t the first time Crum has been arrested. Records show he has also faced charges for everything from family violence assault, to unauthorized use of a motor vehicle, reckless driving, abusive calls to 911 and making a terroristic threat.

Deputies booked Crum into the Hood County Jail just after midnight on Tuesday, saying that he was uncooperative then and remained so later on Tuesday. His bond was set at $75,000 for each charge.

Before being arrested, Crum explained that the swerving was his reaction to a spider bite. However, he was captured on video saying “I don’t care” about the motorcycle crash and the two victims. “On that particular road,” Crum said, “I’ve seen them do wheelies at 60 mph, and I thought he was one of them. I didn’t know there was a passenger.”

If he is convicted, Crum could face 20 years in prison for each count. “He’s getting locked up,” said Sanders. “The state is filing charges on him, straight up.”
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/10/20/driver-arrested-for-granbury-motorcycle-crash/


So, which is it, an insect bite or a spider bite? Not that it matters much, the guy sounds like the total DB he appeared to be in the video.
 
Crotch-rocket riders should all be put in jail and have their bikes smashed in a giant smasher.


Could you tell us why you feel that way? I have the same reaction to doo rag wearing motorcycle cruiser riders.Weekend warriors that can't ride for shit usually get my disdain.
 
Could you tell us why you feel that way? I have the same reaction to doo rag wearing motorcycle cruiser riders.Weekend warriors that can't ride for shit usually get my disdain.


Lived in the Tidewater area of Virginia for years. When young 20-something sailors came back from deployment, many of them would buy crotch rockets because they had a lot of money in their pockets. That led to a lot of crotch rockets speeding around the interstates with no safety in mind. So two things happened: a large group of crotch-rocket riders would join up together and ride side-by-side on random interstates. They would slow down to 20 MPH and back up traffic. Once the cars ahead of them would get about two miles down the road, they would race reaching incredibly stupid speeds. They would then break up, scatter and meet some place else and repeat. Police could never catch them.

Another time I was returning from the navy base on 564. I was in an area where three interstates come together during the 4:00 PM area; A LOT OF CARS. I had just switched lanes when I noticed a blurry object race by me on the dashed line. I heard the asshole that sped by me at about 120 MPH 2-3 seconds after he passed me. If I had changed lanes seconds earlier, I would have been dead as well as the bike rider.
I constantly see stupid riding from people on those type of bikes.

At least cruisers, what I ride, tend to obey the speed limit and follow the rules of the road.
 
Back to the original post/story, here's the update:

GRANBURY (CBSDFW.COM) – A driver in Granbury over the weekend was captured on video swerving into a motorcycle on the road. The bike crashed and left two people injured. William ‘Bill’ Crum claims an insect bite caused him to momentarily lose control of his vehicle, but prosecutors are not buying that story.

CBS 11 uncovered the criminal past of a man who continues to insist that a spider bite forced him to swerve into a motorcyclist and his passenger.

Bill Crum spoke to reporters from the Hood County Jail Tuesday.

“Right there inside my leg,” Crum said showing cameras where he said the spider bit him. “I’m squeezing puss out of it. Maybe it will rot half my leg off and they’ll believe I was actually bit.”

The video that shows Crum crossing the double lines and crashing into a motorcyclist and passenger who were passing him illegally has gone viral on a global scale.

Crum can be heard saying “I don’t care” when confronted at the crash scene.

He explained that he didn’t feel remorse because the motorcyclist was breaking the traffic laws.

“I thought that he was one of these turds that was doing something wrong,” Crum said.

CBS 11 discovered that Crum’s wrap sheet dated back to the 90’s and involved charges of assault, reckless driving and terrorist threats.

Crum had little to say about the prior convictions.

His current charges include two counts of Aggravated Assault. He’s being held on $150,000 bond.

The motorcycle on Saturday was trying to illegally pass Crum’s car on the road. After it crossed over a double line, Crum’s car suddenly veered into the bike and then back into its own lane. The entire thing was caught on video by another biker.

Debra Simpson was the passenger on the crashed motorcycle. She remains hospitalized after suffering a broken wrist and deep lacerations from the crash and has needed more than one surgery. Eric Sanders was the driver of the motorcycle, and is Simpson’s boyfriend. He too was hurt when the bike wrecked out.

Simpson was moved out of ICU on Monday, but there is no word yet on when she will be able to leave the hospital.

Crum, 68, now faces two counts of aggravated assault. While he remains in jail for these alleged crimes this isn’t the first time Crum has been arrested. Records show he has also faced charges for everything from family violence assault, to unauthorized use of a motor vehicle, reckless driving, abusive calls to 911 and making a terroristic threat.

Deputies booked Crum into the Hood County Jail just after midnight on Tuesday, saying that he was uncooperative then and remained so later on Tuesday. His bond was set at $75,000 for each charge.

Before being arrested, Crum explained that the swerving was his reaction to a spider bite. However, he was captured on video saying “I don’t care” about the motorcycle crash and the two victims. “On that particular road,” Crum said, “I’ve seen them do wheelies at 60 mph, and I thought he was one of them. I didn’t know there was a passenger.”

If he is convicted, Crum could face 20 years in prison for each count. “He’s getting locked up,” said Sanders. “The state is filing charges on him, straight up.”
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/10/20/driver-arrested-for-granbury-motorcycle-crash/
It would be interesting to see the criminal/driving record for Sanders, the guy who crashed. He was cited for illegal passing and for driving without a valid license. My guess is he doesn't have a valid license because of a history of reckless driving.

He now has a GoFundMe page, begging for money to pay his rent. He is obviously going to sue for damages and medical bills, but says he needs money immediately to cover rent and other expenses while he is off work. Says he is in danger of losing his apartment and being homeless. So I guess he can afford a crotch rocket but can't pay his rent if he misses work for even a few days. Sounds like a real winner.
 
Fundamentally hate crimes are absurd designations, because all crime involves a level of "hate" or whatever term you so choose, they aren't committed against a victim out of love.
Have you met the real world?

Plenty of crimes committed for gain.

Plenty of crimes are simply crimes of opportunity, or a result of spontaneous conflict.

And then we have those crimes where the victim is singled out because of race or gender identity or whatever. Where the crime might not have occurred at all if not for the racism or bigotry of the criminal.
 
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In a larger sense I am simply arguing against legislative enhancements. IMO they are simply confirmations that society "knows best" and we don't trust our appointed judges.
Have you met our Supreme Court?

You know those 5-4 decisions? What they tell us is that if you and I were to go before different justices on the same crime, there's a very good chance - not an extremely small chance - that we would get different "justice."

So, yes, I absolutely approve of the idea that "society" should set the parameters and tell judges what's important.
 
Also, they are attempting to solely legislate intent, as opposed to the action itself. And intent, separated from the action, should be inherently protected, because it is basically speech/association/religion/whatever. Combining it with the action shouldn't rid that protection.

Crime 1: Assault, a general intent crime (some states label as battery or a/b) of placing another person in reasonable fear of being harmed with the ability to do so. Or, more simply, hitting/pushing/kicking someone.

We don't want people to be assaulted so we legislate against it.

Crime 2: Same as 1, but with the added sub of "because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, or national origin of any person". So now we go from assault, which we don't want, to determining the reason for the assault, something that should be a sentencing aspect, not a conviction aspect. The crime isn't not liking the person of another race, the crime is the assault. This is evidenced by lack of laws outlawing discrimination without accompanying criminal action. In sentencing a judge should consider mitigating and aggravating circumstances. i.e. you punched the guy in the bar because he was groping your wife - light sentence vs. you punched the guy in the bar because he asked you to stop motorboating his wife - heavier sentence vs. punched a guy because he was black - even heavier sentence. See the "hate" part of should already be built right in, in the sentencing discretion.

Now in reality the "hate crime" statutes attempt to specifically legislate the punishment higher to override the discretion of a judge. (see above post in general). So a hate crime, for example, might elevate a misdemeanor (jail) assault directly to felony (prison). And the question, fundamentally, is always for what purpose? Is it really more important to stop a person from hitting a person because they are black as opposed to because they are ugly, or smug, or smelly, or annoying, or tall, or smart, or dumb, or hairy, or whatever?
First, you are simply wrong when you say "they are attempting to solely legislate intent, as opposed to the action itself." It's always that they are looking at intent once there is a crime.

We aren't making laws against bad thoughts. We are making laws against bad behavior AND saying that when that bad behavior is triggered by bad thoughts, we should pay special attention.

You seem to think that intent should never be a factor. You pretty much assert that. And this gets back to my original question to you. Why should or shouldn't intent be a factor. All you've really done in a lot of words is state that you don't think it should be, but not why.

Here's the thing. Intent is always a possible factor. Did you intend to kill your wife? Did you plan it? We have different homicide charging levels if those answers are "yes" and generally lower penalties (sometimes much lower) if the answers are "no."

Did you embezzle from the pension fund you managed to buy a mansion or did you shoplift at the grocery store because your children were starving and needed food? Most of us understand that motive - intent - is very important for deciding how bad the offender is and what the appropriate penalty should be.

To me, the idea that intent should not factor in is absurd, for the reasons I've suggested. But that still leaves the question as to what we should do about it. For premeditated murder, we impose harsher sentences. What should we do if an assault victim is targeted because he's gay or black or "looks Muslim"? Should we do anything? Should we notice? Should we care? You apparently don't think so. But I do.

Should this be something the democratic process gets to decide? You apparently think not. But I think so.

How should we decide?
 
First, you are simply wrong when you say "they are attempting to solely legislate intent, as opposed to the action itself." It's always that they are looking at intent once there is a crime.

We aren't making laws against bad thoughts. We are making laws against bad behavior AND saying that when that bad behavior is triggered by bad thoughts, we should pay special attention.

You seem to think that intent should never be a factor. You pretty much assert that. And this gets back to my original question to you. Why should or shouldn't intent be a factor. All you've really done in a lot of words is state that you don't think it should be, but not why.

Here's the thing. Intent is always a possible factor. Did you intend to kill your wife? Did you plan it? We have different homicide charging levels if those answers are "yes" and generally lower penalties (sometimes much lower) if the answers are "no."

Did you embezzle from the pension fund you managed to buy a mansion or did you shoplift at the grocery store because your children were starving and needed food? Most of us understand that motive - intent - is very important for deciding how bad the offender is and what the appropriate penalty should be.

To me, the idea that intent should not factor in is absurd, for the reasons I've suggested. But that still leaves the question as to what we should do about it. For premeditated murder, we impose harsher sentences. What should we do if an assault victim is targeted because he's gay or black or "looks Muslim"? Should we do anything? Should we notice? Should we care? You apparently don't think so. But I do.

Should this be something the democratic process gets to decide? You apparently think not. But I think so.

How should we decide?

They are solely legislating intent - that is evidenced by the fact that the crime itself is already criminalized.

And it is laws against bad thought, again, because the bad action itself is already criminalized.

Intent should ALWAYS be a factor in determining whether the act was, for lack of a better term, intentional or not. If it was intentional, the intentions behind the act are simply mitigating/aggravating, sure, which is what they are trying to legislate. But by legislating it for ALL they make it nonsensical in far too many cases. Mitigation/aggravation are, imo, specifically why we have Judges, if they can't take those things in to account they are basically neutered.

The democratic process often needs to be protected from itself, which is one of the main reasons we have judges, otherwise we would just American-Idol them to their death. Do you really want the "democratic process" to determine all fates? Of course not. I like the idea of having trained, highly educated, professionals chosen democratically to weigh these issues and make a determination. Instead we get Larry the ex-ceo of the local Carpet World in the Senate deciding that he feels bad about a "hate" crime because he watched a Youtube video.
 
Have you met our Supreme Court?

You know those 5-4 decisions? What they tell us is that if you and I were to go before different justices on the same crime, there's a very good chance - not an extremely small chance - that we would get different "justice."

So, yes, I absolutely approve of the idea that "society" should set the parameters and tell judges what's important.

Of course, but unlike you I don't think that "justice" is an objectively quantifiable thing, therefore it only makes sense that many people disagree, include those Justices. Society is setting parameters, this isn't about parameters this is about setting rigid limits.

But seriously, why should a misdemeanor crime of violence carrying AT MOST 30 days in jail be suddenly a Felony carrying prison....because of "hate" or because of a specific race-based intent, as opposed to the more general, "I wanted to punch him" intent?
 
Where the crime might not have occurred at all if not for the racism or bigotry of the criminal.

This, imo, is your basic failure. You are attempting to compare a crime vs. not a crime, as opposed to crime vs. crime. In both scenarios of assault a person is identically harmed, yet you seek to punish harsher for the thought behind the intent, and only in specific cases.

The only way your above claim would be "accurate" is if you believed the "hate" enhancement acts to deter that conduct, which does not statistically hold. You are alleging that a person who wants to punch a black person for being black would not, in fact, do so because of "hate crime" laws. Now, remember, it can't be because of assault laws, because it would have otherwise already deterred the conduct. OR, you somehow naively believe it won't just deter the conduct, but will deter the thought as well....which would be, in fact, policing the thought you earlier said they don't.
 
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