New evidence suggests burial cloth ‘showing imprint of Jesus’ is REAL

[JustSayOV]

Interesting take but I’d say not likely. Paul persecuted Christians and was very good at it. If he thought he could seize control he would know he would be signing up for a lot of suffering and his own death warrant. Typically not things people sign up for.

His conversion led to his own persecution and death.

I know.....was said more so just tongue in cheek.....

Just circling back around to the point of you had 12 guys literally following Jesus around for 2 years, absorbing everything he said and did...were literally given power to heal on occasion, etc......consumed and altered their lives forever.....

....then 2 years later this other guy shows up, having never met or spoke physically to Jesus and then proceeds to spread Christianity throughout the land and fast forward 2,000 years and its no argument that Paul has his fingerprint on modern Christianity and the church and how things are done and taught more than anyone else....specifically his teaching and interpretations even moreso than Jesus (i.e. Pauline Christianity)

I am not "disliking" Paul.....maybe just in a facetious way saying that the original 12 kind of got the shaft.

(also not implying that's why they followed Jesus in the first place......only for generational fame either)

 

[Jerome Silberman]

This thread is really quite sad.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

I know.....was said more so just tongue in cheek.....

Just circling back around to the point of you had 12 guys literally following Jesus around for 2 years, absorbing everything he said and did...were literally given power to heal on occasion, etc......consumed and altered their lives forever.....

....then 2 years later this other guy shows up, having never met or spoke physically to Jesus and then proceeds to spread Christianity throughout the land and fast forward 2,000 years and its no argument that Paul has his fingerprint on modern Christianity and the church and how things are done and taught more than anyone else....specifically his teaching and interpretations even moreso than Jesus (i.e. Pauline Christianity)

I am not "disliking" Paul.....maybe just in a facetious way saying that the original 12 kind of got the shaft.

(also not implying that's why they followed Jesus in the first place......only for generational fame either)

I think they all played a role but Paul gets a little more attention because of his writings. I don’t see it as contrarian but rather complementary. He was the exact right persona to do the ministry he did. A Jewish law expert who had the chops to go west several times. His conversion is just as important, if not more important than his letters.

The disciples were laymen, you and I can relate too. Paul was an academic and an authority. A key piece needed to the whole thing.

The other disciples were busy too but were not writers. Don’t forget they also died as martyrs. Some stayed and some ventured out north, south, & east too.

 

[BrianNole777]

That won't end well for them...

The greatest scientist of all time wrote more about the Bible than he did science.

Sir Isaac Newton.

Isaac Newton's life was one long search for God

From physics and alchemy to theology and eschatology, Isaac Newton’s research was rooted in a personal pursuit of the Divine.

bigthink.com

 

[alaskanseminole]

 

[BrianNole777]

This thread is really quite sad.

Why's that?

 

[BrianNole777]

A single mention that was likely fraudulently added after the fact ain’t much.

Even if you're right, Jesus still existed.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

Why's that?

Because it illuminates how something as silly as believing in a magic cloth(i.e. an idol) has been able to be propagated by bad men for literally centuries. The Sun does not exist to find truth or enlightenment, it exists to move treasure from rubes to the pockets of the Murdock family.

It's a scam bro, and always has been. Just like how Joseph Smith didn't find a bunch of Egyptian like artifacts in the ground in rural Pennsylvania.

 

[BrianNole777]

Because it illuminates how something as silly as believing in a magic cloth(i.e. an idol) has been able to be propagated by bad men for literally centuries. The Sun does not exist to find truth or enlightenment, it exists to move treasure from rubes to the pockets of the Murdock family.

It's a scam bro, and always has been. Just like how Joseph Smith didn't find a bunch of Egyptian like artifacts in the ground in rural Pennsylvania.

"The Sun does not exist to find truth or enlightenment, it exists to move treasure from rubes to the pockets of the Murdock family."

I'm not sure what you mean by that but agree 100% that Joseph Smith was a fraud.

Joseph Smith and the criminal justice system - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Jerome Silberman]

"The Sun does not exist to find truth or enlightenment, it exists to move treasure from rubes to the pockets of the Murdock family."

I'm not sure what you mean by that but agree 100% that Joseph Smith was a fraud.

Joseph Smith and the criminal justice system - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Sun is a tabloid. A tabloid runs sensationalist or outright false stories to get people to buy their garbage. Only tabloids, or charlatans trying to sell books, deal in the veracity of the magic Jesus linen.

It's a scam and always has been. The Mormon example is the same type of fake archeology as the shroud, just more recent.

 

[BrianNole777]

The Sun is a tabloid. A tabloid runs sensationalist or outright false stories to get people to buy their garbage. Only tabloids, or charlatans trying to sell books, deal in the veracity of the magic Jesus linen.

It's a scam and always has been. The Mormon example is the same type of fake archeology as the shroud, just more recent.

I think some honest brokers believe in the Shroud of Turin.

If it's fake, no big deal, IMO.

 

[artradley]

Even if you're right, Jesus still existed.

As Christopher Hitchens pointed out, the absurdity of the lies in the Gospels tortuously created in order to make Jesus match prophecy suggests that rather than making up the story entirely, there likely was some delusional, charismatic rabbi wandering around. But that is about as much as we can honestly deduce.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

I think some honest brokers believe in the Shroud of Turin.

If it's fake, no big deal, IMO.

Honest people get duped all the time. They're what confidence men call marks.

 

[BrianNole777]

Honest people get duped all the time. They're what confidence men call marks.

What does it matter if someone thinks the shroud is real or fake?

It's not like most are paying money for it.

 

[BrianNole777]

As Christopher Hitchens pointed out, the absurdity of the lies in the Gospels tortuously created in order to make Jesus match prophecy suggests that rather than making up the story entirely, there likely was some delusional, charismatic rabbi wandering around. But that is about as much as we can honestly deduce.

Hitchens wasn't exactly a Bible scholar.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

As Christopher Hitchens pointed out, the absurdity of the lies in the Gospels tortuously created in order to make Jesus match prophecy suggests that rather than making up the story entirely, there likely was some delusional, charismatic rabbi wandering around. But that is about as much as we can honestly deduce.

Honest question, if you saw Jesus in your kitchen tomorrow morning eating your corn flakes, would you believe in Him?

 

[Jerome Silberman]

What does it matter if someone thinks the shroud is real or fake?

It's not like most are paying money for it.

Whether it matters is probably a personal thing, but if you clicked on the story you are helping to create a demand and ad revenue for the FOX family of networks.

Like I said it's probably personal, but I don't like to see people taking advantage of people's spirituality for profit or to shepherd them towards beliefs that they may not arrive at organically.

Plainly, I do not support the idea of alternative facts or the economies of religious con men, and worry about how much bandwidth those things have taken up in the minds of my neighbors, friends and family.

 

[artradley]

Hitchens wasn't exactly a Bible scholar.

I would say he’s better versed in the Bible than 95% of its adherents. And he was using standard reasoning of historians.

 

[BrianNole777]

I would say he’s better versed in the Bible than 95% of its adherents. And he was using standard reasoning of historians.

Well, he never attended seminary and wasn't a theologian or philosopher.

 

[Obviously Oblivious]

Believe what you want but don’t cling to artifacts and relics as a source of proof. I honestly hope the story of Jesus is true because it’s a great example of how to navigate your way through life and all of its various challenges, but in no way do I believe that there’s verifiable evidence to back up the accounts within the Bible.

 

[Bow.to.the.Narrative]

All religions spawn because people don't want to accept when we die its over.

As a non believer I'd love to be wrong.

That is one of the reasons. The others are to conjure answers for questions that humans have no answer for (which is part of that same thing); and the other one is that they are invented by some to exploit and control others.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

Well, he never attended seminary and wasn't a theologian or philosopher.

Hitchens also could never articulate sin and the fall of man. Something most 12 year olds raised in the church can do.

 

[DooBi]

ice hockey, actually. Peter went to the splits a la Domenic Hasek.

Kick save and a beauty!

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Honest question, if you saw Jesus in your kitchen tomorrow morning eating your corn flakes, would you believe in Him?

Verifiable evidence is all that’s ever been requested. So far, the batting average is .000

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Hitchens also could never articulate sin and the fall of man. Something most 12 year olds raised in the church can do.

What?? How is one supposed to articulate for your satisfaction something one doesn’t remotely believe in?

 

[LuciousBDragon]

What?? How is one supposed to articulate for your satisfaction something one doesn’t remotely believe in?

One should know the details of what one debates, no?

You know, know thy enemy.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

One should know the details of what one debates, no?

You know, know thy enemy.

What? Adam and Eve were put in a utopian garden with two dangerous fruits, told not to eat them, Eve was convinced to do so by a talking snake and dragged Adam along with her? That fall? Definitely the kind of thing a 12 year old would get.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Well, he never attended seminary and wasn't a theologian or philosopher.

Actually, his degree had a philosophy component.

 

[BrianNole777]

Actually, his degree had a philosophy component.

He also supported the Iraq War and George W. Bush for President in 2004.

How'd you feel about that??

 

[fredjr82]

The whole world of relics is fascinating. Having actually gone to a shroud lecture a few years back, it struck me as fair to say that (I) you hear some good science that is 'consistent' with the tradition of the relic, and (ii) you hear some science that you know is just intuitively bad. In some ways, I suppose, it's a perfect illustration of the problem of science insisting on its methods to prove theology, and vice versa. In both cases, you're never going to quite get there.

Because to me, what's actually more interesting than whether it's "real" or not is seeing people of faith as they contemplate a relic. Again, some of them are 'simple,' and some are among the most complex thinkers on real world questions that I know. Yet in both cases, the relic evokes a contemplation of the underlying story that is emotionally and spiritually compelling. So like rituals, relics are not magical, but the tradition associated with them serves a much bigger purpose of stimulating and reinforcing those more important things believed to be true by reason and faith. In its own way, the "Weeping Madonna" scene from "We're No Angels" was a pretty nice reflection of this.

TL;DR

 

[IIowaFarmBoy]

Whatever it takes for religious people starting to include Science in their reasoning.

You mean like life starting from nothing?

 

[IIowaFarmBoy]

Because the all-loving Jesus Christ wants to commit you to an eternity of hell fire if you do not bow down to his existence.

Jesus wasnt loving with religiuos leaders at all. You havent really read the bible.

 

[IIowaFarmBoy]

i'm not up on all the details of the shroud, but what supposed caused the imprint/markings in the first place?

you can lay a piece of linen on a face, body, or any other object and it doesn't automatically develop an image of the thing it's draped over

so what supposedly caused the image to appear?

Those present were blinded.

 

[IIowaFarmBoy]

OV's simple minded thoughts on the matter:

1) I agree with @binsfeldcyhawk2 reference to that sermon in that Jesus's message is different that the old testament

2) I feel like Jesus was like "ok Jews, here I am, I am the guy you have been waiting for. I am a Jew, I practice Jewish law, but here are the things that need to change so follow me" and then they were like "nah, we're good, i think we'll just kill you"

3) So ultimately, true Christianity today should probably be more or less Judaism that believes in Jesus as the messiah or whatever. That's not how I practice things.....but in a literal sense Jesus wasn't like "lets ditch ALL things Jewish and lets all become Catholic!"

4) All modern day Christian religions (Catholicism, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.) only exist because one person didn't like how the other guy was doing it and started their own branch.

5) Tied to #4, I feel Paul had WAAAAY too much influence in modern religion if we are being honest. Here are the gospels of the guys that were with Jesus for like 2 years.......but then we take Paul who saw a vision of Jesus on the roadway a couple years later and then he basically makes up most of the new testament?

- to me Paul has always just seemed like a preacher you see on the religious TV stations just blowing smoke. I have a hard time believing God was like "well I guess this whole Jesus and the disciples thing wasn't enough so I better reach out to this Paul guy like 2 years later and make sure he gets the message out"


I pretty much stick to the gospels of the new testament and that's about it. I focus on what that means to me and don't pay much attention to any certain church or other stuff in the bible to be honest.

Your understanding of Paul shows you dont know about Paul.

 

[thewop]

Not a single eyewitness recorded their account. So, no, we don’t know there were eyewitnesses to anything.

The gospels agree on many things, so it's patently false to say there were no eyewitnesses. At least 6 did record their accounts: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter in the new testament.

If other accounts existed, they apparently don't now, but to say nobody recorded any is just wrong.

 

[artradley]

The gospels agree on many things, so it's patently false to say there were no eyewitnesses. At least 6 did record their accounts: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter in the new testament.

If other accounts existed, they apparently don't now, but to say nobody recorded any is just wrong.

Uh, none of themwere contemporaries of Jesus. There are zero eyewitness accounts of anything related to Jesus.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

He also supported the Iraq War and George W. Bush for President in 2004.

How'd you feel about that??

I disagree with it. Your god ordered the massacres of every man, woman, and child in multiple cities in multiple acts of genocide. How do you feel about that? Your god ordered the deaths of every man, woman, and child on the entire Earth - the near ultimate genocide - save one family. How do you feel about that? Your god ordered the deaths of every first born male in Egypt, no matter how young they were. How do you feel about that? If some maniac went door-to-door today, killing every oldest male child on a single street, you’d be horrified. No justification that maniac could give - including god told him to - would excuse it. You would rightly call for the most extreme punishment available to you.

Your dilemma, of course, is that you have to justify those abhorrent actions of your god with tortured “logic” while I can simply dismiss the views of Hitchens I don’t agree with.

 

[BrianNole777]

I disagree with it. Your god ordered the massacres of every man, woman, and child in multiple cities in multiple acts of genocide. How do you feel about that? Your god ordered the deaths of every man, woman, and child on the entire Earth - the near ultimate genocide - save one family. How do you feel about that? Your god ordered the deaths of every first born male in Egypt, no matter how young they were. How do you feel about that? If some maniac went door-to-door today, killing every oldest male child on a single street, you’d be horrified. No justification that maniac could give - including god told him to - would excuse it. You would rightly call for the most extreme punishment available to you.

Your dilemma, of course, is that you have to justify those abhorrent actions of your god with tortured “logic” while I can simply dismiss the views of Hitchens I don’t agree with.

I read the Old Testament through "Jesus glasses."

As you know, I'm a New Testament kind of guy.

Let me ask you..do you think your atheism will help you when you're a corpse?

Get saved, my friend.

You too @artradley

 

[tarheelbybirth]

I read the Old Testament through "Jesus glasses."

As you know, I'm a New Testament kind of guy.

Let me ask you..do you think your atheism will help you when you're a corpse?

Get saved, my friend.

You too @artradley

Sorry, you don’t get to just ignore the questions posed. I answered yours. How does reading through magic glasses of literal genocide ordered over and over by your god make it acceptable?

And I’m an atheist in the same way I’m a aunicornist. It’s meaningless.

 

[BrianNole777]

Sorry, you don’t get to just ignore the questions posed. I answered yours. How does reading through magic glasses of literal genocide ordered over and over by your god make it acceptable?

And I’m an atheist in the same way I’m a aunicornist. It’s meaningless.

My point is I follow Jesus. He's in the New Testament which completed the Old Testament.

How is being an atheist meaningless?

Compared to eternal life, nothing else matters.