It might seem "weird" that Paul, who wasn’t one of the originl disciples and didn’t walk with Jesus during His ministry, played such a YUGE role in shaping Christianity. IMO you need to think of it through a different lens--Paul’s conversion and later influence show that the message of Christ wasn't just for those who were with Him from the start, but for everyone, including those who initially opposed Him.
OK. But I dont think today resembles Paul at all. I get your poin now.
You could reconcile this more simply with an understanding that you are imposing later philosophical concepts and ideas on a text that did not develop with those concepts in mind. Original sin is not a part of the Jewish tradition. "The fall" doesn't get brought up again throughout the rest of Hebrew scripture. (Adam is mentioned as part of a genealogy in chronicles) But the Adam and Eve story is not discussed as a critical moment in defining human nature. The original sin concept did not coalesce until the 3rd century and was developed by Christians to explain Jesus "sacrifice".
I’m not at all frustrated. And knowledge of an impending event equals causation when god created everything - literally everything - leading up to the event. Set the wheels in motion. Breathed life into Adam and Eve. Created the trees and put those in front of them and told them not to be tempted knowing the talking snake he created would talk Eve into failing his singular warning. It’s his scenario created by him and designed to play out exactly as it did. I understand your frustration at being unable to comprehend that and I understand the need of a true believer to try and discount it but that doesn’t wash.
This is 1000% correct.
So you cannot accept a God unconditionally? The God has to meet your requirements and pass your judgement test? Your mere mortalness is qualified to judge a God of the universe?
That sounds like retirement. GOOD FOR YOU! Congrats!
I have had the same questions before. Paul’s history is needed because it sets an example of how God can literally meet us on our walk and compel & convict us to repent and then pick up His cross and go on mission. Jesus’s great commission was to go and make disciples. Well here is a guy to persecuted Christians and then had a literal “come to Jesus” moment and chose to go make disciples.
Need to be very careful using the term “original sin” and properly define the audience and context with whom you are speaking. Some of us are Catholic and would adhere to this as dogma codified at the Council of Trent. Some of us are not Catholic and simply mean we are all sinful from birth (if/how sin “transfers” is sort of irrelevant).
lol…as I’ve repeatedly said, a true creator-of-the-entire-universe god is so far beyond our ability to comprehend that there isn’t any point in speculating about its nature. It’s like contemplating infinity.
None of these verses attribute the origin of sin to the fall of man story in Genesis.
Why does a God, any God, need to operate according to your definition or morality? You get to define how a God should operate? You get to define the morality that a God should follow?
It is interesting. But, again, it itilized illogic to explain away the obvious.
lol…it’s your claim that our sense of morality must come from your god…that it can’t arise any other way. In your scenario, I’m judging your god using the sense of right and wrong granted to me by your god. Hoisting him on his own petard, as it were. Is murdering children right or wrong? Simple question. Will you give a simple answer?
You're missing some other attributes of the God I worship. You are focused on your morality but are forgetting that God is also perfectly just. His idea of justice > your idea of justice. And clearly, we humans crave justice (thats what we argue about daily on this board afterall).
Like Brian, you refused to answer a simple question with a simple answer. I can only assume you think it “just” to murder innocent children as long as your god did it. Just curious, how do you know your god didn’t murder those children in Newton or in Uvalde for his own goals? They’re a mystery to us, you know. Nobody is adding addendums to the Bible these days to explain events. How do you know those massacres weren’t some aspect of your God’s “justice”? If the shooters claimed that god told them to do it, are they excused? How would you know they weren’t?
How can you judge evil without a standard to judge against? The fact you and I can agree that the examples you noted are indeed evil is evidence that a standard exists. I personally believe that any standard that is man-made is fallible, imperfect, & problematic. Thus my preference for God's standard. You believe that mortal man can create morality and accepts its imperfection & problems that come with it.
No simple answer to whether or not murdering children is evil? Yes, that’s why I reject your theology without a second thought.
That your god can’t tell the difference between an infant incapable of sin and an ugly old man who’s an ax-murderer represents a problem for you and a disqualifier for me.
Every first-born Egyptian male regardless of age in the supposed time of Moses begs to differ. Every child on the planet save those related to Noah does likewise.
That’s where you forfeit the discussion.
I think you're starting to get it. God planted a sense of judgement in our hearts so we have an innate awareness of what is right & wrong from the start. He created the standard of good so we know what to judge against. Plato thought similarly.
But your own theology places Jesus in the OT. That is undeniable so of course you can’t convince me otherwise. The real question is why you run from the truth of your own Bible.
One simple thing you are overlooking in asking those questions about innocent children being murdered is this, The Bible and Jesus himself stated that Satan the Devil is the ruler of this disaster of a world.
I’m not “starting to get” anything. My views haven’t changed one iota. You’re still throwing out a word salad to justify purely evil acts attributed to your god.
