OT: Michigan under investigation for sign stealing
- Thread starter BigOHawk
- Start date
harbaugh likely hoping to get through this year, win it all, then jump to the Bears with the top 2 picks to work with. A nice escape plan
Actually, I believe history would say otherwise.
There's actually two NCAA rules in play. You're not allowed to scout in person and you're not allowed to record your own video of an opponent.So you can watch as much film as you want...but you can't actually be at the game? That makes sense.
Nobody connected to the football program can attend another team's game? Never mind that somewhere between 50-100,000 other people are there.
This classic NCAA, picking at some nuance selectively while ignoring the important stuff.
So yeah, you can watch as much television coverage or game film *submitted from the opponent* as you wish. You cannot buy a ticket with a seat opposite the team you're scouting, run a camera on their signal callers, then sync up that film up with game film to decipher the signals.
I get the filming part (is Michigan accused of that?) but that fact that you can't scout a team live seems a bit silly.
Yes, Michigan is accused of that. And yes, I agree the rule against in person scouting is outdated.
The rule against in-person scouting is to help even the playing field... as it costs money to fly employees around the country to attend games in person. Teams with a smaller budget would have a harder time affording it.
Maybe a little dated.... But why exactly do teams need to be able to scout in-person? Every game is televised somewhere or you can get approved game tape.
If Michigan has someone going to game AND recording the teams sideline/signals.... The NCAA better drop the hammer... LOL.
Who am I kidding, it's one of the blue bloods, they'll just be scolded and put on double secret probation.
Kinnick would be a great place to scout. Get sideline tickets and you’re basically able to hear most conversations and piece together things that can’t be seen on standard game film.
Sources: Michigan staffer had tickets at 11 Big Ten schools
- Pete Thamel
- Mark Schlabach
Connor Stalions, the suspended Michigan staffer at the center of the NCAA's sign-stealing probe, purchased tickets in his own name for more than 30 games over the past three years at 11 different Big Ten schools, sources at 11 different league schools told ESPN.
The scope of the University of Michigan's alleged sign-stealing operation includes both video evidence of electronics prohibited by the NCAA to steal signs and a significant paper trail, sources told ESPN. Stalions forwarded the tickets he bought to at least three different people in different areas of the country, sources say, which hints at the breadth of the operation.
The NCAA is expected to receive video evidence this week of illegal technology used in scouting tied to tickets purchased by Stalions, according to sources. An opposing Big Ten school looked up in-stadium surveillance video from a game earlier this year, and sources said the person in the seat of the ticket purchased by Stalions held his smartphone up and appeared to film the home team's sideline the entire game.
Sources confirmed to ESPN that Stalions purchased tickets on both sides of the stadium -- across from each bench -- for Ohio State's game with Penn State on Saturday. Michigan plays both teams in upcoming weeks. According to sources, the tickets purchased by Stalions were not used Saturday. Stalions' name emerged publicly in an ESPN story Friday. He was suspended with pay by Michigan.
None of the tickets that the 11 schools told ESPN about involved Michigan as an opponent, per sources. The games involved either one or both of the teams that the Wolverines were playing later that season, according to sources.
Stalions did not respond to ESPN's request for comment. Michigan on Monday reiterated that it is unable to comment further due to the ongoing investigation.
"The Big Ten conference considers the integrity of competition to be of the utmost importance. Due to the ongoing nature of the NCAA investigation, the conference has no comment at this time," the league said in a statement Monday.
Michigan is ranked No. 2 in the AP poll, looking for its third consecutive trip to the College Football Playoff. It is the current betting favorite to win the national title.
Sources indicated that Stalions forwarded tickets to at least three other individuals, with the ticket transfer showing up through ticket data tracking. Those tickets were used by individuals other than Stalions to get into the game, including the one in the video the NCAA is expected to receive.
Sources told ESPN last week of an "elaborate" scouting system, and that appears to be emerging less than a week after Yahoo Sports first reported that the NCAA was investigating Michigan's scouting. Stalions often purchased the tickets with his own credit card, according to sources. The sources added that tickets at multiple venues were bought via the online retailers such as StubHub or SeatGeek.
The ticket purchases fall into a seat location pattern -- somewhere around the 45-yard line and raised up enough for a clear view of the opposite sideline.
One source told ESPN that Stalions bought tickets to five different games at that school over the past three years. Another said it was four games over the past two years. A third source said it was nine games over the past three years. Some of the purchases were single tickets, others were for multiple people, and sometimes seats were bought on both sides of the stadium near midfield.
One source said Stalions bought some tickets across from the home sideline in order to scout the home team, which Michigan played that season. But the source added there have also been tickets purchased on the other side of the stadium facing the sideline of the opponent, including one purchase across from the visiting sideline in the weeks before Michigan played Ohio State.
In the back half of last season, for example, tickets were bought by Stalions on both sidelines for one league game in which Michigan had both opponents remaining on the schedule.
Officials around the Big Ten are upset, according to sources, as allegations of this type of coordinated and orchestrated capturing of signals looms as distinctly different allegations than the gamesmanship of attempting to decode signals from across the sideline (in-game stealing is not prohibited under NCAA rules).
The alleged evidence of the signals being captured on film means the Wolverines could now face more scrutiny for violating an additional NCAA rule.
The first NCAA rule in question is scouting in opposing stadiums, which has been in place since 1994. The second potential rule being broken, evidence of which had not been reported prior, could mean that Michigan violated Article 11 subsection H of the NCAA football rulebook: "Any attempt to record, either through audio or video means, any signals given by an opposing player, coach or other team personnel is prohibited."
It's uncertain who was funding the purchases. Stalions makes $55,000 per year, according to the University of Michigan's website. But the operation included thousands of dollars in ticket sales and the cost of travel to the stadiums.
Even if the school doesn't sell the ticket directly, it can electronically trace the tickets to the school's home games, sources said, including the time the person entered. School officials around the Big Ten began to trace Stalions' purchases on Friday, soon after ESPN named Stalions as a person of interest in the NCAA's probe early Friday morning (sources said the NCAA has interest in his computer as part of the investigation).
The schools began discovering Stalions had bought the tickets himself, and it raised suspicions because either the home school or visitors were future Michigan opponents. Stalions is a former captain in the United States Marine Corps who boasted on LinkedIn of his knack for "identifying and exploiting critical vulnerabilities and centers of gravity in the opponent scouting process." He'd been a volunteer at Michigan, according to LinkedIn, from 2015 to 2022 before being hired full time in May 2022.
Soon after ESPN identified him as a central part of the probe, he erased multiple social media accounts.
Michigan, which was already involved in an NCAA investigation for alleged illegal recruiting during the COVID-19 dead period, has pledged full cooperation with the latest investigation. There's no precedent to indicate what any potential punishment would be for Michigan or coach Jim Harbaugh, as NCAA enforcement has never seen a case of this scope in signal stealing.
The allegations against Michigan could be greater than what got the New England Patriots in trouble during the Spygate scandal that unfolded during the 2007 season. The crux of those allegations revolved around in-game taping of opponents' signals during Patriots games.
The potential of these allegations being added to the NCAA case could increase Harbaugh's exposure to punishment by the NCAA's head coach responsibility rules, which essentially state the head coach is responsible for everything that happens in his program, whether they are aware of it or not.
Harbaugh said after Michigan's 49-0 win over Michigan State: "There's been stuff. There's been attempts to diminish the team in a lot of ways, starting with the easy schedule. They just play."
Last week, he denied "illegally stealing signals" in a statement.
"I do not have any knowledge or information regarding the University of Michigan football program illegally stealing signals, nor have I directed any staff member or others to participate in an off-campus scouting assignment," he said on Thursday. "I have no awareness of anyone on our staff having done that or having directed that action.
Michigan has a bye this week before playing Purdue at home on Nov. 4.
ESPN's Dan Murphy contributed to this report.
Sources: U-M staffer bought tickets at 11 schools
Suspended Michigan staffer Connor Stalions, who is at the center of the NCAA's sign-stealing probe, purchased tickets in his own name for more than 30 games over the past three years at 11 different Big Ten schools, multiple sources told ESPN.
Careful ... with the Iowa staff’s reputation for bending or breaking the rules or attempting to do so
(Coop’s ploy wasn’t an accident and of course the cheap center ball slap)
You know full well they have been stealing signals too
That’s all the evidence I need. They are clearly watching the signals from across the field and once they have them they call pass or whatever. Obviously knowing the signals.
Guilty.
A
anon_b29nm7v7dwp6r
Guest
I’m not a Michigan fan but this seems ridiculous…nearly every serious team on the planet watches film and would look for those cues.
Huge nothingburger….and the NCAA still sucks….see Noah Shannon for proof.
Huge nothingburger….and the NCAA still sucks….see Noah Shannon for proof.
The bottom line is this: Sending a staffer to games around the country for the purpose of filming to gain advanced knowledge of a team is against the rules. Evidence of how extensive Michigan's staffer was involved in doing that and who on the Michigan sideline knew about it, continues to pile up. And while there isn't proof (yet) that Harbaugh knew about it, he's already been caught lying to the NCAA previously. Personally, I think he knew about what Stalions was doing and fully endorsed it.
How could a coach NOT know what was going on? Hell, he's on staff, on the sideline with printouts, cue cards and images standing and walking by the staff, etc and you say you have no idea what's going on there? Given his history as noted, I smell a rat yet I'm not sure how much can be levied against Michigan, a slippery slope given their record and run to the CFP.
Is there any coincidence that Harbaugh's WORST year was during the pandemic when fans weren't allowed in the stands? Marinate on that for awhile...no fans, no tickets, no stealing signs and filming in person...hmmm...
Dude, a nothingburger?
The video clearly shows the guy looking over to the sideline and relaying the info to the coach.
Why would a low level staffer be right there????
THEY KNEW EXACTLY WHAT PLAY THEY WERE RUNNING.
To me that's 100% CHEATING.
There's a reason they are the best defense in the country.
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I encourage you and everyone to read the ESPN article I posted above. It's pretty damn crazy.
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Another ESPN story from last night.
SEC teams aren't gonna like this!
The scope of the alleged illicit scouting ring being orchestrated by suspended Michigan analyst Connor Stalions continues to grow, as sources told ESPN on Tuesday that he bought tickets for games at four schools outside of the Big Ten that were either in College Football Playoff contention or playing contenders.
There also is record of Stalions buying tickets to the 2021 and 2022 SEC title games, sources told ESPN. The tickets to the SEC title games were purchased on the secondary market, according to sources.
ESPN also learned that Stalions, who is at the center of an NCAA investigation into Michigan's alleged sign-stealing operation, bought tickets to a 12th Big Ten school, as sources at 12 of the 13 possible Big Ten schools have a record of Stalions buying a ticket there. ESPN reported on Monday there were 11 schools.
According to four sources, all of the tickets for games outside the Big Ten involved CFP contenders and were purchased either toward the middle or end of the 2022 season, as Michigan was headed to the College Football Playoff for the second consecutive season.
The Big Ten announced last week that Michigan (8-0, 5-0) is under NCAA investigation for the alleged sign-stealing operation. The Wolverines are the No. 2 team in the country and the current betting favorite to win the national title.
Soon after ESPN reported that Stalions had emerged as a centerpiece of the NCAA's investigation into Michigan's sign-stealing scheme on Friday, the school suspended him with pay. Since then, schools around the country have been checking their ticket data -- which includes the secondary market in most cases -- to see if Stalions purchased tickets to their games.
ESPN has confirmed that Stalions has purchased tickets to more than 35 games at 17 stadiums around the country. He has used a network of at least three people, who were forwarded the tickets to attend games.
A source told ESPN on Tuesday that the NCAA has been sent at least an hour of video evidence that shows a person sitting in a seat appearing to video the home sideline with a smartphone. Stalions purchased the ticket for that seat. The video is expected to be used as part of the investigation to show that electronics were used in the signal-stealing ring, according to sources.
"Unless something happens right now, it's irrelevant," a source on a Big Ten campus said, underscoring the frustration around the league. "Everyone is mad. This is not right. But what is the NCAA going to do about it?"
Although the NCAA is leading the investigation into Michigan, the Big Ten could take action against the school before the probe is complete, sources told ESPN's Adam Rittenberg on Tuesday. The Big Ten's sportsmanship policy states that commissioner Tony Petitti has the "exclusive authority to determine whether offensive actions have occurred" and to impose discipline for members.
The policy lists "integrity of the competition" as a fundamental element that all Big Ten schools are expected to uphold. Institutions are responsible for "the actions of its employees" and for cooperating with the league during an investigation.
The Big Ten has two categories for discipline. The first includes fines that don't exceed $10,000 and suspensions of no more than two contests. The second, for major disciplinary action, requires approval from an executive committee made up of representatives of different schools, which can deny proposed penalties or reduce them but not add to them. The Big Ten's penalties for Michigan State from the fight with Michigan in the Michigan Stadium tunnel in 2022 were an example of major disciplinary action.
A source told ESPN that the Big Ten would want to have "as full of a picture of what the facts actually are if we were to act" before the NCAA completes its investigation, which likely would not occur until sometime in 2024.
In a statement last week, Michigan coach Jim Harbaugh denied "illegally stealing signs" and said he had never "directed any staff member or others to participate in an off-campus scouting assignment."
NCAA enforcement timelines are notoriously slow. Michigan is still under investigation for recruiting violations tied to allegations that emerged during the COVID-19 mandated recruiting dead period. (Harbaugh served a school-imposed three-game suspension for those violations earlier this year, but the case remains unfinished.)
The emergence of Stalions purchasing tickets at three College Football Playoff contenders outside the Big Ten reflects the potential breadth of the operation, which sources told ESPN last week was "elaborate."
After ESPN reported on Monday that sources at 11 of the possible 13 Big Ten schools had confirmed Stalions bought a ticket in his name at their stadium, another source at a 12th Big Ten school found a record of Stalions purchasing a ticket at their stadium. The school that didn't find Stalions in their records does not have access to search names in secondary markets.
According to the source, the ticket was purchased across from the visiting sideline for a game against Ohio State. It's the fourth Ohio State-related game that ESPN has confirmed, three of which were in opposing stadiums where the tickets were purchased across from the visitor's sideline. The fourth was OSU's game against Penn State on Saturday, for which Stalions had purchased tickets across from both sidelines, according to sources. Michigan still must play both of those teams this season.
Those tickets were not used after Stalions' name emerged in an ESPN story on Friday.
Michigan faced Georgia in 2021 College Football Playoff after scouting them in the SEC title game against Alabama that year. Michigan lost to Georgia 34-11 in the CFP semifinals.
On Tuesday, a Michigan spokesman reiterated that the school is "unable to comment further due to this being an ongoing investigation."
A Big Ten official also declined to comment further. On Monday, the league told ESPN that it "considers the integrity of competition to be of the utmost importance. Due to the ongoing nature of the NCAA investigation, the conference has no comment at this time."
ESPN's Adam Rittenberg contributed to this report.
www.espn.com
SEC teams aren't gonna like this!
Sources: Michigan staffer bought tickets for non-Big Ten games
- Pete Thamel
- Mark Schlabach
The scope of the alleged illicit scouting ring being orchestrated by suspended Michigan analyst Connor Stalions continues to grow, as sources told ESPN on Tuesday that he bought tickets for games at four schools outside of the Big Ten that were either in College Football Playoff contention or playing contenders.
There also is record of Stalions buying tickets to the 2021 and 2022 SEC title games, sources told ESPN. The tickets to the SEC title games were purchased on the secondary market, according to sources.
ESPN also learned that Stalions, who is at the center of an NCAA investigation into Michigan's alleged sign-stealing operation, bought tickets to a 12th Big Ten school, as sources at 12 of the 13 possible Big Ten schools have a record of Stalions buying a ticket there. ESPN reported on Monday there were 11 schools.
According to four sources, all of the tickets for games outside the Big Ten involved CFP contenders and were purchased either toward the middle or end of the 2022 season, as Michigan was headed to the College Football Playoff for the second consecutive season.
The Big Ten announced last week that Michigan (8-0, 5-0) is under NCAA investigation for the alleged sign-stealing operation. The Wolverines are the No. 2 team in the country and the current betting favorite to win the national title.
Soon after ESPN reported that Stalions had emerged as a centerpiece of the NCAA's investigation into Michigan's sign-stealing scheme on Friday, the school suspended him with pay. Since then, schools around the country have been checking their ticket data -- which includes the secondary market in most cases -- to see if Stalions purchased tickets to their games.
ESPN has confirmed that Stalions has purchased tickets to more than 35 games at 17 stadiums around the country. He has used a network of at least three people, who were forwarded the tickets to attend games.
A source told ESPN on Tuesday that the NCAA has been sent at least an hour of video evidence that shows a person sitting in a seat appearing to video the home sideline with a smartphone. Stalions purchased the ticket for that seat. The video is expected to be used as part of the investigation to show that electronics were used in the signal-stealing ring, according to sources.
"Unless something happens right now, it's irrelevant," a source on a Big Ten campus said, underscoring the frustration around the league. "Everyone is mad. This is not right. But what is the NCAA going to do about it?"
Although the NCAA is leading the investigation into Michigan, the Big Ten could take action against the school before the probe is complete, sources told ESPN's Adam Rittenberg on Tuesday. The Big Ten's sportsmanship policy states that commissioner Tony Petitti has the "exclusive authority to determine whether offensive actions have occurred" and to impose discipline for members.
The policy lists "integrity of the competition" as a fundamental element that all Big Ten schools are expected to uphold. Institutions are responsible for "the actions of its employees" and for cooperating with the league during an investigation.
The Big Ten has two categories for discipline. The first includes fines that don't exceed $10,000 and suspensions of no more than two contests. The second, for major disciplinary action, requires approval from an executive committee made up of representatives of different schools, which can deny proposed penalties or reduce them but not add to them. The Big Ten's penalties for Michigan State from the fight with Michigan in the Michigan Stadium tunnel in 2022 were an example of major disciplinary action.
A source told ESPN that the Big Ten would want to have "as full of a picture of what the facts actually are if we were to act" before the NCAA completes its investigation, which likely would not occur until sometime in 2024.
In a statement last week, Michigan coach Jim Harbaugh denied "illegally stealing signs" and said he had never "directed any staff member or others to participate in an off-campus scouting assignment."
NCAA enforcement timelines are notoriously slow. Michigan is still under investigation for recruiting violations tied to allegations that emerged during the COVID-19 mandated recruiting dead period. (Harbaugh served a school-imposed three-game suspension for those violations earlier this year, but the case remains unfinished.)
The emergence of Stalions purchasing tickets at three College Football Playoff contenders outside the Big Ten reflects the potential breadth of the operation, which sources told ESPN last week was "elaborate."
After ESPN reported on Monday that sources at 11 of the possible 13 Big Ten schools had confirmed Stalions bought a ticket in his name at their stadium, another source at a 12th Big Ten school found a record of Stalions purchasing a ticket at their stadium. The school that didn't find Stalions in their records does not have access to search names in secondary markets.
According to the source, the ticket was purchased across from the visiting sideline for a game against Ohio State. It's the fourth Ohio State-related game that ESPN has confirmed, three of which were in opposing stadiums where the tickets were purchased across from the visitor's sideline. The fourth was OSU's game against Penn State on Saturday, for which Stalions had purchased tickets across from both sidelines, according to sources. Michigan still must play both of those teams this season.
Those tickets were not used after Stalions' name emerged in an ESPN story on Friday.
Michigan faced Georgia in 2021 College Football Playoff after scouting them in the SEC title game against Alabama that year. Michigan lost to Georgia 34-11 in the CFP semifinals.
On Tuesday, a Michigan spokesman reiterated that the school is "unable to comment further due to this being an ongoing investigation."
A Big Ten official also declined to comment further. On Monday, the league told ESPN that it "considers the integrity of competition to be of the utmost importance. Due to the ongoing nature of the NCAA investigation, the conference has no comment at this time."
ESPN's Adam Rittenberg contributed to this report.
Sources: U-M staffer bought non-Big Ten tickets
Suspended Michigan analyst Connor Stalions bought tickets for games at four schools outside of the Big Ten that were either in College Football Playoff contention or playing contenders, sources told ESPN.
Our demands may be met, I don't think there is any way Harbaugh is coaching there next year, the AD and Prez have put up with enough IMO. From satellite camps to hiding in trees to not recalling cheeseburger purchases and the like, very embarrassing for the University.
Michigan hasn't yet been presented with the case from the NCAA on "burgergate"...the NCAA hasn't done it...period...so stop with he got caught lying...you are a joke...he hasn't gotten caught...he hasn't even been officially accused...Michigan is still waiting for the official document so they can respond within 90 days...none of that happened
Michigan hasn't been presented with anything...evidence or a notice on this most recent accusation...if you want my honest opinion...yeah I think it happened...but you don't have your facts...not even 1%...you should stop commenting
Every team steals signs...well every team attempts it (including Iowa)...what Michigan is accused of is how they did it...the reason Michigan is as good as they are on D is recruiting and coaching
Everyone is doing it…everyone is doing it. You think like a child. Not everyone has a hired spy crisscrossing the fecking country. That’s what this is about, kiddo.
You don't have any idea what this is about. Basically everyone who has ever coached, played or covered the game has come out and said this is what teams do
Get it kiddo
Teams hire guys to do it...
What we did is not the question...it's, AGAIN, how we are accused of doing it...I will again reiterate that my gut (mixed with what I'm hearing) suggests it happened
I live in the adult world...a world were you can see right and wrong and put both into context...you should try this world...it's fine
Buddy, if you don't think all the additional stuff coming out and yet to come is not huge, I don't know what to tell you. They found stuff on their computers also. Jimmy won't be there next year.
I would have thought they would have been a bit more sophisticated in how they cheated, but nah, c'mon we're Michigan no one will believe we cheat!
Think he shared with Kelly at LSU?
Both slime balls.
FootballScoop — Sources told FootballScoop this week that the Wolverines had scouted SEC foes, including Georgia and Tennessee, as potential College Football Playoff adversaries.
Moreover, a source with direct knowledge indicated to FootballScoop that Michigan may have attempted to assist the opposition of a potential CFP opponent in an effort to disrupt that team's potential path to the Playoff.
Both slime balls.
FootballScoop — Sources told FootballScoop this week that the Wolverines had scouted SEC foes, including Georgia and Tennessee, as potential College Football Playoff adversaries.
Moreover, a source with direct knowledge indicated to FootballScoop that Michigan may have attempted to assist the opposition of a potential CFP opponent in an effort to disrupt that team's potential path to the Playoff.
The way Michigan went about it is clearly violating NCAA rules.
For teams that were coming up on their schedule (including teams who they thought they might meet in the CFP), they had someone sitting on the other side of that team's sideline filming the entire game.
Tickets were purchased on both sides of the stadium for last Saturday's Penn State at Ohio State game. Michigan has to play both teams yet, of course. This story broke on Friday. The result? Those seats sat empty the following day.
What Michigan did is clearly an NCAA violation and it clearly gave them a competitive advantage.
Funny how the talk of extending Jim ended pretty quickly.
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