Penn State Dual
- Thread starter BIG10MANIAC
- Start date
It went more or less as most thought it would.
psu is so far separated from the rest they've left everyone else in the dust.
psu will be going for the all time team points record at the NCAAs. I have no idea what Iowa will be doing.
psu is so far separated from the rest they've left everyone else in the dust.
psu will be going for the all time team points record at the NCAAs. I have no idea what Iowa will be doing.
A kid who was a one-time state champ, not highly recruited beats an eventual gold metal Olympic champ twice. Yeah, nothing “Big” about that!
I'm excited for his 0.5 points he will provide at nationals.
Ever hear of this new soda called Pepsi? Some guy just told me about it, but I never buy it. SmallYeah those are some pretty big hitters. I buy those products all the time...
fire, Carl!!! These guys suck that’s it I quit!! Seven years of college down the effing drain might as well join the peace corps!!IOWA GETS A TAKEDOWN AGAINST A PENN STATE WRESTLER!!! HOLY F***ING SH**!!!!!!!
@bourbon n blues Your boys slippin', or just wanting to keep the dual interesting?
Well, someone needs to fire Carl…. He’s really the problem, imo.
Not so much once you add in the part that one guy was a fully grown man with quite a few years in a DI room and the other was a still pudgy teenager. They are still great wins and Cassar deserves credit for them. Just not nearly as much credit as acting like he beat a version anywhere near the one that won Olympic Gold…
While true, two months after losing to Cassar at nationals, Steveson won the WTT challenge tourney with dubs over Coon and Nelson, among others. He lost in Final X to Gwiaz but won Bill Ferrell later that year. Not bad for a pudgy teenager.
L
By then Gable will be driving an empty bus back with Tnt tied to the rear bumper
That is why I said they were still great wins and he deserves credit. However, Gable went on record saying that he changed a lot of his training program and it showed as his conditioning and body shape changed considerably after that season…
Regarding the angst over the Cassar special . . .
I don’t see it so much a story about beating a freshman phenom that was destined to be a future Olympic Champion (that’s the Hollywood aspect) as much as a story about a classic wrestler success story realting to the classic wrestler mentality. A mentality that some (but not all) fans of this sport can relate to . . . overcoming any and all obstacles (and setbacks) in one’s pursuit of a goal, no matter the sacrifice, whether in the near term or with respect to long-term future health and well being, when one makes the conscious decision that enough is enough and thing are going to change. Ultimate dedication and sacrifice, singular focus and drive, taking the lumps and gut-punches, and persevering to achieve the goal. I think at least a few of us can relate to this and appreciate the feeling, no matter the scale of the goal.
It’s not a story about beating freshman Gable. It is a story that celebrates one aspect of the human sprit that most people strive for and only a minority make on.
Show me a BTN special where the take-home message does not include a theme of insipration. That’s all this is. Marinelli, Robb, Cassar (NJ cheezball vibes aside) — inspirational stories based on personal accounts and details. Stories of the underdog. Who can’t get behind that?
I don’t see it so much a story about beating a freshman phenom that was destined to be a future Olympic Champion (that’s the Hollywood aspect) as much as a story about a classic wrestler success story realting to the classic wrestler mentality. A mentality that some (but not all) fans of this sport can relate to . . . overcoming any and all obstacles (and setbacks) in one’s pursuit of a goal, no matter the sacrifice, whether in the near term or with respect to long-term future health and well being, when one makes the conscious decision that enough is enough and thing are going to change. Ultimate dedication and sacrifice, singular focus and drive, taking the lumps and gut-punches, and persevering to achieve the goal. I think at least a few of us can relate to this and appreciate the feeling, no matter the scale of the goal.
It’s not a story about beating freshman Gable. It is a story that celebrates one aspect of the human sprit that most people strive for and only a minority make on.
Show me a BTN special where the take-home message does not include a theme of insipration. That’s all this is. Marinelli, Robb, Cassar (NJ cheezball vibes aside) — inspirational stories based on personal accounts and details. Stories of the underdog. Who can’t get behind that?
I didn't get to watch the matches. I listened to Byers last night on PSU radio then today while on a road trip listened to Ironside. Interesting to hear the different calls. Both are home team homers which is completely understandable. Then this evening I watched the matches. I honestly recommend the approach to anyone.
125 Drake had a really nice slide by. Teaching video level in many ways. But anyone that can objectively call his one knee from neutral anything but a stall tactic didn't watch the match. That said Drake deserved to win but should have been called for stalling earlier and forced to come up off the knee and engage. Davis could have forced the issue in dropping to the knee as well causing the ref to tell both to get with the action.
133 Nagao was just too much on top. Not much more you can say.
141 Something is off with Woods, is it HEW? Is it the lingering effects of flu? Bartlett deserved the stall calls. He was not engaging and deserved the calls. Bartlett is one of the best at keeping cool under pressure.
149 Rathjen is something else with that high C! Hit it once in I think the second period and sealed SV with it. That shot is a thing of beauty. He also shut it down in the 3rd and deserved the call he got and another would have been justified. Great match with a kid getting after it when it mattered. Kasak got big brothered. I see Rathjen as an AA. He has a toughness about him I like. Not sure why Brands is still keeping VV in the conversation.
157 Haines in my unknowing opinion wasn't right earlier in the season. Mental, weight cut, health or whatever he looked off. He won but was not sharp. Last night he showed some really solid baseline defense. Franek had some of the best shots I have seen him take all year stuffed by heavy hips and scrambling. Franek got out athleted. Not sure that is a word.
165 Similar to 157 Caliendo had some good shots. In deep and Mesenbrink was everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Easy to see some Askren coming out in his scrambling and movement. Beyond that it was gas tank. Give Caliendo his due, he didn't back down. Kept engaged and kept coming. Scoring a TD late to keep it to a decision. Mesenbrink reminds me a little of David Taylor and Nolf in that he isn't afraid to give up a TD occasionally while pushing the pace. Caliendo is a mid level AA in the toughest weight.
174 Carter faded for the second time in 2 weeks. I think this is similar to Woods. He is still not back from the effects of whatever kept him out of the Michigan road trip. Deserved the stall calls, and wouldn't have complained if he would have been hit with another. Kennedy is a good hard nosed wrestler. Reminds me some of the Bull.
184 Riggins got big brothered. He is out of position wrestling up against a 3 time AA. He did what he could but in the end I am not sure how anyone could have expected much more. Truax in my opinion after 2 minutes of riding time should have moved onto release and TD. That said I almost wonder if PSU had a training goal of mat wrestling for this week. I know they have a focus each week on different areas of emphasis. Who knows?
197 Glazier is a stud. He has paid his dues as a backup, been recruited over with Mr. Twitch Fast, and has used it to motivate and inspire himself to be better. Brooks showed respect to a worthy opponent at the end of the match. Much respect to a kid that gives you everything he has every night out. Brooks is just that good. Not much you can say beyond that.
HWT Big Ben found out this ain't high school anymore. He got big brothered. Kerk isn't that much bigger 15 lbs or so but the man strength and experience made it seem much more. I didn't feel that either guy was really stalling. Kerk was working for turns. Ben was fighting for his life under there. Not sure stalling should be called for getting big brothered. Ben didn't turtle up and quit and for that I give him props.
I didn't feel that any of the guys quit or just didn't want to be there. Last week I thought some of the Hawkeye guys didn't have the fire. This week they had the fire just were bringing knives to gun fights in some instances.
125 Drake had a really nice slide by. Teaching video level in many ways. But anyone that can objectively call his one knee from neutral anything but a stall tactic didn't watch the match. That said Drake deserved to win but should have been called for stalling earlier and forced to come up off the knee and engage. Davis could have forced the issue in dropping to the knee as well causing the ref to tell both to get with the action.
133 Nagao was just too much on top. Not much more you can say.
141 Something is off with Woods, is it HEW? Is it the lingering effects of flu? Bartlett deserved the stall calls. He was not engaging and deserved the calls. Bartlett is one of the best at keeping cool under pressure.
149 Rathjen is something else with that high C! Hit it once in I think the second period and sealed SV with it. That shot is a thing of beauty. He also shut it down in the 3rd and deserved the call he got and another would have been justified. Great match with a kid getting after it when it mattered. Kasak got big brothered. I see Rathjen as an AA. He has a toughness about him I like. Not sure why Brands is still keeping VV in the conversation.
157 Haines in my unknowing opinion wasn't right earlier in the season. Mental, weight cut, health or whatever he looked off. He won but was not sharp. Last night he showed some really solid baseline defense. Franek had some of the best shots I have seen him take all year stuffed by heavy hips and scrambling. Franek got out athleted. Not sure that is a word.
165 Similar to 157 Caliendo had some good shots. In deep and Mesenbrink was everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Easy to see some Askren coming out in his scrambling and movement. Beyond that it was gas tank. Give Caliendo his due, he didn't back down. Kept engaged and kept coming. Scoring a TD late to keep it to a decision. Mesenbrink reminds me a little of David Taylor and Nolf in that he isn't afraid to give up a TD occasionally while pushing the pace. Caliendo is a mid level AA in the toughest weight.
174 Carter faded for the second time in 2 weeks. I think this is similar to Woods. He is still not back from the effects of whatever kept him out of the Michigan road trip. Deserved the stall calls, and wouldn't have complained if he would have been hit with another. Kennedy is a good hard nosed wrestler. Reminds me some of the Bull.
184 Riggins got big brothered. He is out of position wrestling up against a 3 time AA. He did what he could but in the end I am not sure how anyone could have expected much more. Truax in my opinion after 2 minutes of riding time should have moved onto release and TD. That said I almost wonder if PSU had a training goal of mat wrestling for this week. I know they have a focus each week on different areas of emphasis. Who knows?
197 Glazier is a stud. He has paid his dues as a backup, been recruited over with Mr. Twitch Fast, and has used it to motivate and inspire himself to be better. Brooks showed respect to a worthy opponent at the end of the match. Much respect to a kid that gives you everything he has every night out. Brooks is just that good. Not much you can say beyond that.
HWT Big Ben found out this ain't high school anymore. He got big brothered. Kerk isn't that much bigger 15 lbs or so but the man strength and experience made it seem much more. I didn't feel that either guy was really stalling. Kerk was working for turns. Ben was fighting for his life under there. Not sure stalling should be called for getting big brothered. Ben didn't turtle up and quit and for that I give him props.
I didn't feel that any of the guys quit or just didn't want to be there. Last week I thought some of the Hawkeye guys didn't have the fire. This week they had the fire just were bringing knives to gun fights in some instances.
You know, as an outsider, I certainly get the frustration. But as an outsider, here’s my sense of the conundrum.
On the one hand, Tom conveys the sense that he would absolutely die for his wrestlers, and at the end of the day you’d have to be delusional to suggest he doesn’t know his business. On the other hand, in a world that is crazy enough as it is, he sometimes comes across as the chief lunatic, and if a recruit or parent thought of themself as sane, they’d sorta have to wonder wtf is up.
For everyone saying it’s coaching, trade line ups and see how bad Cael kicks Brand’s ass. It’s all about recruiting. In basketball, in the early 1990’s Steve Fisher of Michigan wasn’t that good of a coach, but he put together the fab 5 recruiting class that made him look great, until they left and he couldn’t recreate that level of recruiting. Cael has used early success to keep recreating those type of classes.
That post-match press conference is what I’d show every recruit considering Iowa if I was a parent or opposing coach.
Tom Brands is passionate, sure, but he also comes across as a raving lunatic. Terry is even worse. Turns out, interpersonal skills actually matter and TNT ***appear*** to be out of their minds.
Iowa still has a brand, and it has passionate fans and donors. TNT are actively driving away a lot of recruits. Ounces make pounds, and individual recruits make strong recruiting classes. Sure, you have the odd top 10 guy, but a lot more of them go elsewhere, aided in no small part by the fact that they won’t be coached by a person who screams inanities and still thinks it’s 1992.
That’s a part of it but it’s more, I have a friend in Iowa who’s a big wrestling fan in general but not of any particular team, these are his thoughts:
Joe Bagobagels You hit the nail on the head! The PennState wrestlers do not have to GET PUMPED UP or get psyched for their matches or teammates ... they do HAVE TO pay attention and scout the opposition and notice every last detail, to help coach their teammates, to help improve the system.
The Hawkeyes are still an excellent team and still well coached in best Gable traditions ... this group now [just like John Smith's Pokes now] is really solid and would probably defeat most, if not all, of Gable's teams through the years ... sure, the individuals would not necessarily beat the BEST-at-every-weight-from-different-years compilation of Hawk wrestlers, but this year's group would hang with that group of the best of best and probably even win a few matches here or there ....
It's just that PennState wrestling is on a completely different plane ... it's on an even higher plane than the MicahParsons-level Top10 College Football spectacle plane ... because it is SO INCREDIBLY CHILL ... not numb, but the concentration is ice-cold ... each of those guys is paying close attention and breaking down every move of every match, in order to be just like Cael ...
No other coaching system in history has gotten a system to this level, because it's not about a key player or set of players ... it's not exactly about recruiting, but instead about attracting the mindset ... it's not about this year's 4X NCAA Champion; there will always be a bunch of other 4X NCAA Champions in the pipeline ... it is about a system of constant improvement... LOVE of the sport and teammates ... as well as ice-cold disciplined study of the art.
The OTHER guys bang their heads into walls OR beat themselves into some sort of psychotic "I hate losin" frenzy OR celebrate with yells or tribal locker room dances [because they're almost afraid they don't quite belong and they'd better go crazy].
The athletes coming out of that PennState system like apex predators or big cats that just relax and softly purr after a kill ... that system totally eschews the prey mindset ... there's no crazed prey-animal fight about it ... it's just technical fun that depends upon athletic preparation.
In his his opinion Sanderson is the best coach ever, not best wrestling coach. I’ve been lucky to be around some people who were great at their jobs, one was a waiter at Mama Leone”s in nyc. He was amazing , just better than any other server I’ve had before and after. He was perfect in the little things to the big things.
There’s no answer to beating Sanderson, it’s not going to happen anytime soon.
Again , my friend in Iowa:
Yep. Best coach we have seen yet ... all sports.
Better than Wooden. Better than Lombardi. Better than Krzyzewski
The Sanderson brothers [with the help of the PennState AD and PSU fans and all of the PSUwr assistants and former PSU wrestlers who are still involved through NLWC, both amateurs and professionals in UFC/MMA] have built a system ...
... which should be studied closely and emulated ...
... ESPECIALLY for the opposing systems out there ... there doesn't appear to be any program that can really challenge PennState, so those other programs have evidently, until now, concluded they don't need to pay attention to PennState.
We are starting to see the wider influence on new up-and-coming programs like South Dakota State that have been closely associated with PennState ... it may take new schools, without a not-invented-here opposition to adopting parts of the PennState system.
There have been other dominant systems ... but I don't think we've ever seen a system like Sanderson's for developing wrestlers so well that the pump is continually re-primed and so the pipeline is perpetually filled with the best high school recruits and best transfer top-level students, eg Mesenbrink, Nagao, Truax [and others who are good, but might not make the lineup].
The level of talent coming into that PennState pipeline now is beyond jaw-dropping.
If you're really good [but might not always make the 10-man matches] why not wrestle the best [if they'll take you...] and pick up things from being involved with the whole PennState/NLWC system ... players, coaches, industry connections ....
The attraction of that system [and its connections] would be a real gamechanger for talented individuals who have goals of turning professional into UFC/MMAs or coaching/training other ... I expect that we will see other programs working 24x7 to somehow replicate that system and the attraction of its pipeline.
Resident Athlete Program | Nittany Lion Wrestling Club
Resident Athlete Program.
www.nittanylionwrestlingclub.com
You’re a good poster and I generally think you have a fair take, but this is just sheer nonsense. I think Cael has a good system, culture, etc. but the idea that some kind of super mindset is the reason for PSU’s success is lunacy. He’s in the most fertile recruiting ground in the country, sitting on more top ten PFPs than anyone else ever. It’s like claiming Alabama wins so much in football because of psychology. When the deck is that stacked against everyone else, it’s easy to look good, and quite frankly it comes across as somewhat smugly elitist to show up with a lineup that much better than everyone else and then say it’s the mindset and love of the sport that allows them to win
Maybe this “system” shows in how Lions come off a mat after a big dual win. Calmer, like it was expected, like they’ve already logged things they want to work on. Friday’s 165 comes to mind. Big win over a terrific, attacking, never-say-die opponent, and Mesenbrink walks off non-plussed, like giving up that late TD was inconceivable. Also after his huge win over an extremely tough kid who hit very deep, solid shots, Levi looked stoic as ever, satisfied with how he defended those attacks.
It’s an interesting take. That Lion joy comes from executing techniques well or improving future preparation. That a win is the reward for doing those things, not overcoming some manufactured “me against the world” or “they can’t beat me” or “I hate losing” mentality.
TB has done very well fostering that mindset and will likely continue winning duals at a high rate. But the majority of high-level recruits like Cael’s system better. No, TB, it doesn’t “put PSU on a pedestal” (see presser outburst) to try to emulate their methods. It only helps Iowa compete with them.
You can't separate "recruiting" and psychology (the mind of the recruits and the mindset of the training/room). Recruit pure athletes without the right psychology, or the right psychology but lacking raw athleticism, and you've got 'nothing'. Karl has a knack for picking ones who have both, and then the right environment (psychology) for honing it, keeping it healthy, and not having it burn out. Pains me to say all that, but psychology is absolutely a big part of it and Kale is good at it. Having money and being in fertile country helps, but plenty of his studs are from elsewhere.
I don’t know, man. Your take is more about the individuals than any team philosophy. Iowa has had plenty of guys win and run right off the mat after. Meanwhile, PSU has had plenty celebrate rather demonstrably after winning.
The only real difference is PSU has had considerably more talent that is “expected” to win big matches and it is simple, basic logic that many super talented kids don’t get over excited when they win a match they 100% believe they should have won…
Stop chugging the Kool-Aid. Sanderson is a great coach. No argument. But get real. College wrestling is a minor sport that's getting more minor as schools continue to drop their programs. At best, four teams in any given year have any hope of competing for the national championship. Four teams.
Belichick, Auriemma, Coach K and many others who are the equal or better than Cael coach in far more competitive settings.
He hasn't even surpassed Gable in the sport of college wrestling.
And while Cael's done well coaching on the international stage, his record there, where competition is at its fiercest, is much spottier.
My friend who lives in Iowa isn’t a Penn stater, he’s a wrestling fan in general. He likes the hawks, the lions, and the cyclones maybe he’s more ISU the IU, but he’s more of a fan of the sport.
These are his thoughts. But compare psu now to Iowa in the table years, very similar .
You do realize that Sanderson is pretty young, right? 44 years old and it’s pretty reasonable to think he’s going to have more championships if he coaches to 60-64 years of age.
Gable won 15 didn’t he? That mark will be easy for him to achieve if he coaches what? 4 more years?
I was always interested in sports, psychology, myself, and wondering why sometimes you’re into the training and other times you have a hard time being motivated. I remember reading a book called flow by some fell with too long of the name to remember how to spell. There are some other books for Charles Garfield, that talked about this kind of stuff along with books by Maxwell Maltz. I think he wrote a book called psycho Cybernetics.
If you look at the performances under pressure by people, like Joe, Montana, when he led the 49ers on that long drive. He looked up in the stand and said, isn’t that John Candy over there? If you learn to control yourself, mentally you’re going to succeed, much more in any chosen activity.
My friend was laying out things that he has seen Sanderson do well, and he leaves no stone unturned in getting better. We gotta put on stupid or something. This is.
The ones who have both tend to be the highest rated recruits, who then go to PSU. I largely agree with you, but the idea that Carl has some “secret sauce” that makes them better than everyone else just isn’t true. He does a great job of keeping his team motivated, keeping them from burning out, etc, and that’s impressive. But it’s not why they win titles.
flow:%20The%20Psychology%20of%20Optimal%20Experience%20https://a.co/d/dDWon6e
Here’s the book I mentioned.
And another on the same topic:
Peak Performance: Mental Training Techniques of the World's Greatest Athletes https://a.co/d/8WKJr7M
Here’s the book I mentioned.
And another on the same topic:
Peak Performance: Mental Training Techniques of the World's Greatest Athletes https://a.co/d/8WKJr7M
I don’t know whether it was in this thread or not, but somebody posted all the AA placements over the past like 13 years. Penn State was 55-23 in their placement bouts, including 21-6 outside the finals. Each of those bouts pitted guys that finished within a place of each other. Are you suggesting that there is no evidence of some sort of mental toughness across the board that gets them to finish strong?
When an NFL head coach takes notice, you must be doing something different.
https://www.si.com/nfl/bills/news/how-bills-coach-sean-mcdermott-is-inspired-by-penn-state-wrestling
https://www.si.com/nfl/bills/news/how-bills-coach-sean-mcdermott-is-inspired-by-penn-state-wrestling
Nothing that isn’t attributable to more talent in the room and excellent coaching
After watching the matches from last night, in my very amateur opinion, Mesenbrink was my favorite wrestler on the mat and that sucks to say as an Iowa fan.
Taylor Swift is definitely getting stretched out tonight.
