Question for Anti-DEI types

[theiacowtipper]

I was looking through the DEI information for our textbook. It is a requirement for accessibility stuff but that's another story. Here is the DEI statement from the publishers. I'd ask what you find wrong or offensive about these statements. These are reflective of most DEI efforts.

Everyone has an equitable and lifelong opportunity to succeed through learning.
Our educational content accurately reflects the histories and lived experiences of the learners we serve.
Our educational products and services are inclusive and represent the rich diversity of learners.
Our educational content prompts deeper discussions with students and motivates them to expand their own learning (and worldview).

Now what's so horrible about those statements and similar missions with other companies that deserve the angst from the right? What's so horrible about any of those that the entire program deserves abolishment?

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Replacing equality with equity is my beef.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

I was looking through the DEI information for our textbook. It is a requirement for accessibility stuff but that's another story. Here is the DEI statement from the publishers. I'd ask what you find wrong or offensive about these statements. These are reflective of most DEI efforts.

Everyone has an equitable and lifelong opportunity to succeed through learning.
Our educational content accurately reflects the histories and lived experiences of the learners we serve.
Our educational products and services are inclusive and represent the rich diversity of learners.
Our educational content prompts deeper discussions with students and motivates them to expand their own learning (and worldview).

Now what's so horrible about those statements and similar missions with other companies that deserve the angst from the right? What's so horrible about any of those that the entire program deserves abolishment?

DEI itself isn’t the issue for most. I think most people have a problem with DEI being held up as the most important standard in doing business. Should banks not loan money to a business because said business doesn’t have a DEI department, even if it has demonstrated that it is already very diverse and inclusive? Because that’s what is happening.

Stanford had something like 170 DEI Deans. Everything happening on that campus (including compelled language) has been put through a DEI vice.

It’s overkill to the point of having diminishing returns in a lot of places.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

I was looking through the DEI information for our textbook. It is a requirement for accessibility stuff but that's another story. Here is the DEI statement from the publishers. I'd ask what you find wrong or offensive about these statements. These are reflective of most DEI efforts.

Everyone has an equitable and lifelong opportunity to succeed through learning.
Our educational content accurately reflects the histories and lived experiences of the learners we serve.
Our educational products and services are inclusive and represent the rich diversity of learners.
Our educational content prompts deeper discussions with students and motivates them to expand their own learning (and worldview).

Now what's so horrible about those statements and similar missions with other companies that deserve the angst from the right? What's so horrible about any of those that the entire program deserves abolishment?

At that level It's not, it's when you get further down the line to " people with major mental disabilities are under represented in this field, we need more representation from that grouping" that becomes an issue.

 

[Rifler]

Replacing equality with equity is my beef.

Agreed,.. Diversity and inclusion are desirable provided they happen in an organic fashion,.. Equity, (equality of outcome), is a non-starter...

 

[tarheelbybirth]

I was looking through the DEI information for our textbook. It is a requirement for accessibility stuff but that's another story. Here is the DEI statement from the publishers. I'd ask what you find wrong or offensive about these statements. These are reflective of most DEI efforts.

Everyone has an equitable and lifelong opportunity to succeed through learning.
Our educational content accurately reflects the histories and lived experiences of the learners we serve.
Our educational products and services are inclusive and represent the rich diversity of learners.
Our educational content prompts deeper discussions with students and motivates them to expand their own learning (and worldview).

Now what's so horrible about those statements and similar missions with other companies that deserve the angst from the right? What's so horrible about any of those that the entire program deserves abolishment?

They don't need to learn nothing but white people stuff!!



DEI is simply the latest GOP dog whistle for their slobbering racist base.

 

[BanjoSaysWoof]

Replacing equality with equity is my beef.

Agreed,.. Diversity and inclusion is desirable provided it happens in an organic fashion,.. Equity, meaning equality of outcome, is a non-starter...

“Provided it happens in an organic fashion”

Minorities in this country can be more educated, more experienced and still be rejected for jobs for white counterparts. That’s why the DEI initiatives were needed.

What you’re saying is “racism should be okay until whites grow out of it”.

Tell me, how long should minorities give whites to organically not be racist anymore?

 

[theiacowtipper]

Replacing equality with equity is my beef.

Could you expand on that a bit?

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Agreed,.. Diversity and inclusion are desirable provided they happen in an organic fashion,.. Equity, (equality of outcome), is a non-starter...

Sure...organic...the way it's ALWAYS occurred in this country (said no one but an inveterate racist, ever). FTR, equity and equality don't mean the same thing and equity sure as hell doesn't mean equality of outcome, it strives for equality of opportunity...which I'm sure you vehemently regard as a non-starter.

 

[theiacowtipper]

At that level It's not, it's when you get further down the line to " people with major mental disabilities are under represented in this field, we need more representation from that grouping" that becomes an issue.

Ok, let's look at that. Say that the field of, I don't know, pipefitters are underrepresented in an institution that trains pipefitters. Is it wrong for a DEI program to go to people with disabilities and say, what can we do to get you to apply to our program. Are their reasonable accommodations that we can make that will allow you to succeed. No DEI program is lowering standards to allow students to complete, they are doing steps that allow students an equal chance to try.

 

[Rifler]

“Provided it happens in an organic fashion”

Minorities in this country can be more educated, more experienced and still be rejected for jobs for white counterparts. That’s why the DEI initiatives were needed. What you’re saying is “racism should be okay until whites grow out of it”. Tell me, how long should minorities give whites to organically not be racist anymore?

You don't correct racial bias by introducing racial bias,.. The rules have to be fair. Vast majority of society is on board. The dissenting minority will catch up or die out,.. Their choice.

 

[theiacowtipper]

Agreed,.. Diversity and inclusion are desirable provided they happen in an organic fashion,.. Equity, (equality of outcome), is a non-starter...

How about equity of chance? How about a company recruiting an underrepresented population? Say they advertise a position in a way that reaches black people more than white people. Then they let the people compete against each other. That's equity. That's what DEI does. The "E" in DEI is equity, it's not equal outcomes but an equal chance.

 

[Rifler]

Sure...organic...the way it's ALWAYS occurred in this country (said no one but an inveterate racist, ever). FTR, equity and equality don't mean the same thing and equity sure as hell doesn't mean equality of outcome, it strives for equality of opportunity...which I'm sure you vehemently regard as a non-starter.

Nope,.. I strongly favor equality of opportunity,.. I do not favor equality of outcome.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Could you expand on that a bit?

I believe in equal opportunity.

To get to equity we basically revert back to quota's. Not a fan.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

Ok, let's look at that. Say that the field of, I don't know, pipefitters are underrepresented in an institution that trains pipefitters. Is it wrong for a DEI program to go to people with disabilities and say, what can we do to get you to apply to our program. Are their reasonable accommodations that we can make that will allow you to succeed. No DEI program is lowering standards to allow students to complete, they are doing steps that allow students an equal chance to try.

It sounds great, but if I have to build a bench for one guy to weld a pipe or I can send a guy down the line, when we have 1200 miles of pipe to lay, I don't have time for the bench, life isn't fair. I'm not 6'5 with high jump abilities. I'm also not the right person to be a helicopter medic, it is what it is.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

You don't correct racial bias by introducing racial bias,.. The rules have to be fair. Vast majority of society is on board. The dissenting minority will catch up or die out,.. Their choice.

Horseshit! You're playing a game of Monopoly where you get dozens of rolls before others even touch the dice. Now you hand them the dice and tell them to "catch up" when there are few properties left. That's your "fair rules".

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

Horseshit! You're playing a game of Monopoly where you get dozens of rolls before others even touch the dice. Now you hand them the dice and tell them to "catch up" when there are few properties left. That's your "fair rules".

Are you talking about people with disabilities or specifically people of color?

Respectfully, I don't see how "disability" fits into your analogy.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

How about equity of chance? How about a company recruiting an underrepresented population? Say they advertise a position in a way that reaches black people more than white people. Then they let the people compete against each other. That's equity. That's what DEI does. The "E" in DEI is equity, it's not equal outcomes but an equal chance.

How about Asians? They present a real problem for the DEIers. They are underrepresented but are white skinned and over achieving and hence not in need of handouts or favors. But they are a minority and a definite victim of the “good intentions” of DEI. Not hard to find plenty of stories about how they are getting completely screwed by this, which should be geared towards helping them.

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

Everyone has an equitable and lifelong opportunity to succeed through learning.

Everyone should have equal opportunity.

Our educational content accurately reflects the histories and lived experiences of the learners we serve.

Who determines what is accurate?

Our educational products and services are inclusive and represent the rich diversity of learners.

Is this code word for various leftwing radical theories?

Our educational content prompts deeper discussions with students and motivates them to expand their own learning (and worldview).

Does it? Are all views really accepted?

 

[theiacowtipper]

At that level It's not, it's when you get further down the line to " people with major mental disabilities are under represented in this field, we need more representation from that grouping" that becomes an issue.

Why? Why is that an issue? What's wrong with everyone having the same chance? Why can't we give people a chance? You used mental disabilities as an example but what about others? We don't have to have equal representation of hired employees but if you don't have equal representation of applicants there's an issue. Right now, nationwide, about 3% of paramedics are African American. 5% of paramedics are Latino. Why is that? That's significantly lower than the national percentages. Those groups are significantly underrepresented. Are there schools in the areas where they live? Are they aware of the opportunities that exist? Let's let them apply to our program. If they succeed, great, if not, they had a chance. What's wrong with giving them a chance?

 

[theiacowtipper]

I believe in equal opportunity.

To get to equity we basically revert back to quota's. Not a fan.

You have a basic misunderstanding here. Equity refers to equality of opportunity. Equality means equal outcomes.

 

[theiacowtipper]

It sounds great, but if I have to build a bench for one guy to weld a pipe or I can send a guy down the line, when we have 1200 miles of pipe to lay, I don't have time for the bench, life isn't fair. I'm not 6'5 with high jump abilities. I'm also not the right person to be a helicopter medic, it is what it is.

But can we help that candidate, with a disability, meet the standards that those without disabilities meet? Let's say that person, if given a pair of glasses, can pass a color blindness test. The only reason he wasn't qualified to be an electrician is that he didn't have those glasses. Is he getting an equal chance? Of course not, until he got those glasses.

 

[Finance85]

I was looking through the DEI information for our textbook. It is a requirement for accessibility stuff but that's another story. Here is the DEI statement from the publishers. I'd ask what you find wrong or offensive about these statements. These are reflective of most DEI efforts.

Everyone has an equitable and lifelong opportunity to succeed through learning.
Our educational content accurately reflects the histories and lived experiences of the learners we serve.
Our educational products and services are inclusive and represent the rich diversity of learners.
Our educational content prompts deeper discussions with students and motivates them to expand their own learning (and worldview).

Now what's so horrible about those statements and similar missions with other companies that deserve the angst from the right? What's so horrible about any of those that the entire program deserves abolishment?

Nothing is wrong with those statements. They are incomplete however.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Everyone should have equal opportunity.

If only you actually believed that.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

Why? Why is that an issue? What's wrong with everyone having the same chance? Why can't we give people a chance? You used mental disabilities as an example but what about others? We don't have to have equal representation of hired employees but if you don't have equal representation of applicants there's an issue. Right now, nationwide, about 3% of paramedics are African American. 5% of paramedics are Latino. Why is that? That's significantly lower than the national percentages. Those groups are significantly underrepresented. Are there schools in the areas where they live? Are they aware of the opportunities that exist? Let's let them apply to our program. If they succeed, great, if not, they had a chance. What's wrong with giving them a chance?

Giving someone a chance and lowering standards to give them a chance are thr difference. I would love to see more poc in Leo and first responder roles. But if my leg is broke in the middle of my back ditch, I'm not going to give a shit what color the person skin is or who they banged last night, I'm going to care if they can get me out.



The problem with DeI standards, specific to the military in this case, is the standards were lowered to allow underrepresented commu it's to show up. Example: female SF.


And if it isn't "can he lift me" it's "can this asshole actually calculate the dosages I need" ect.

May the best person win, always, but to not see DEI as no child left behind for the workforce is ignorant.

 

[IAFB2021Champs]

Horseshit! You're playing a game of Monopoly where you get dozens of rolls before others even touch the dice. Now you hand them the dice and tell them to "catch up" when there are few properties left. That's your "fair rules".

Yeah that’s why I was once told by a major DEI company that they brought me in for an interview because they thought I was Hispanic based on the way my last name looked. Are you talking about all those extra rolls that I would have received if my last name was Smith.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

You have a basic misunderstanding here. Equity refers to equality of opportunity. Equality means equal outcomes.

I don't think I am...

Equality-- the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, and opportunities

 

[theiacowtipper]

Everyone should have equal opportunity.



Who determines what is accurate?



Is this code word for various leftwing radical theories?



Does it? Are all views really accepted?

Please google the difference between equality and equity. Equity recognizes that some people have different starting places and needs to get to an equal chance. It has nothing to do with outcomes and everything to do with opportunity.

 

[theiacowtipper]

Giving someone a chance and lowering standards to give them a chance are thr difference. I would love to see more poc in Leo and first responder roles. But if my leg is broke in the middle of my back ditch, I'm not going to give a shit what color the person skin is or who they banged last night, I'm going to care if they can get me out.



The problem with DeI standards, specific to the military in this case, is the standards were lowered to allow underrepresented commu it's to show up. Example: female SF.


And if it isn't "can he lift me" it's "can this asshole actually calculate the dosages I need" ect.

May the best person win, always, but to not see DEI as no child left behind for the workforce is ignorant.

The certification exams that a person takes to be a paramedic don't care if you're white/black/brown/purple. They don't care. They have limited accommodations for some disabilities but only those that wouldn't effect field performance.

 

[Mat_Hawks]

 

[BanjoSaysWoof]

You don't correct racial bias by introducing racial bias,.. The rules have to be fair. Vast majority of society is on board. The dissenting minority will catch up or die out,.. Their choice.

”the rules have to be fair”… to whom? Because it seems like what America thought it was plenty fair when minorities needed to be more educated and experienced to even be considered for the job.

But when a company has to make space for qualified minorities, it’s somehow unfair.

The ultimate DEI hire is the new defense secretary. If he were anything but a white man would he have been considered? No. But somehow that’s okay.

Let’s be real you like when minorities are being discriminated against and think when whites don’t get to be discriminatory it’s a freedom issue.

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating based on race."

- Chief Justics John Roberts

 

[Sullivan]

They don't need to learn nothing but white people stuff!!



DEI is simply the latest GOP dog whistle for their slobbering racist base.

This is what low IQ voters say.

 

[onlyTheObvious]

Colleges are pretty liberal.

University of Michigan had 241 employees in the DEI office? Really a liberal safe place needed that many?

people wonder why college is so expensive. That’s a lot of people not teaching a single credit

Spending on it got out of control.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

Please google the difference between equality and equity. Equity recognizes that some people have different starting places and needs to get to an equal chance. It has nothing to do with outcomes and everything to do with opportunity.

Well, most reasonable people would view the interview process as the “opportunity” and then the hiring process as the “outcome”. You’re calling the hiring process the “opportunity”. That’s a huge distinction.

 

[jneffer]

how many people here have actual direct experience with these kinds of efforts or programs?

because i have some and anyone who thinks it's anywhere near "the most important standard" is either wildly exaggerating or has VERY experiences from me

 

[theiacowtipper]

I don't think I am...

Equality-- the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, and opportunities

DEI means opportunity. That's what it means. Everything is in the context of opportunity. Equality means everyone gets the same resources. If you have 100 candidates they get the same resources. Equity means that you recognize that some people need additional resources to have an equal chance. For instance, during COVID, when we did online learning. It was recognized that some students had no reliable internet access. Their phones didn't cut it. The folks that would now be called DEI recognized that. They convinced places like McDonalds to keep their guest WiFi on even though they were closed. Students would park in the parking lot for class. The school set that up. That's equity. Finding ways to give students a chance.

If the disadvantaged student still couldn't pass the exam, then they failed. The outcomes weren't judged any differently.

 

[theiacowtipper]

“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating based on race."

- Chief Justics John Roberts

I'm good with that. Let's recognize that there are people in all races and income levels and religions that need some help in achieving an equal outcome. Let's provide the help we can.

 

[theiacowtipper]

Well, most reasonable people would view the interview process as the “opportunity” and then the hiring process as the “outcome”. You’re calling the hiring process the “opportunity”. That’s a huge distinction.

I guess I just don't understand. The interview process is part of the hiring process. Aren't they?

 

[Jerome Silberman]

Well, most reasonable people would view the interview process as the “opportunity” and then the hiring process as the “outcome”. You’re calling the hiring process the “opportunity”. That’s a huge distinction.

Do you have any experience with DEI trainings?