They all won titles and were all recruited… in high school. Why leave off a national champ?
Question For Smalls/Wille?
- Thread starter herkcy
- Start date
I do not believe this is correct. A maximum of 10 male wrestlers per team get D1 championship opportunities regardless of roster size. I believe Title IX requires championship opportunities be in proportion to the student body, by the sexes. I think this is another strike against having a national dual championship, because that would necessitate a proportional female championship opportunity.
Because PS you did not recruit Dean, take a toke and let me make my point.
I see your point. But from here it looks like an excuse wrapped in a point.
And the point I was most interested in making was that by looking at their champions ranking in high school should give you an idea on the quality of recruits needed currently just to be competitive.
I believe they were all #1 recruits besides Dean who they did not recruit probably because he was not close to #1.
The level of recruits makes most of the difference of their success and I emphasize (most)!
I am pretty sure RBY is drinking Alpha Chino's lauded Booty Sweat energy drink.
You're way off here. PSU's record in the semi's and finals has everything to do with coaching.
16 champions from PA WrightX2 ; RuthX3; ZainX3; Nico; JosephX2; NolfX3; CStarX2
TX: BoX3
OH DTX2
AZ RBYX2
IN NLeeX2
MD ABX2
NJ Molinaro/Cassr
MI Dean
MN Hall
UT Brown
16 from PA, 16 from the rest of the US
If there were those types of talents coming out of IOWA every year, the majority of the best would certainly go to Iowa and Iowa would win championships with them. Add the PA guys to a national recruiting program (like Iowa does) and it does make a difference.
Can't wait to donate! Maybe I'll do it under the name Ironbird.
When speaking about how many PA guys are and are not starters at PSU, don’t overlook the importance of having strong room guys. I think that’s an advantage a state with high school wrestling as good as PA can provide. Guys that maybe aren’t going to get a scholarship anywhere but that can pay in-state tuition and walk on to their top ranked program. 15 guys on the PSU roster are listed as from PA. (For comparison purposes only, Iowa lists 9 guys from Iowa in its roster.)
I think that this is the case. Hate roster limits in "nonrevenue" sports, particularly wrestling. If there is mat space, and guys are willing to let starters beat the crap out of them every single day, then why not let the coaches set the roster limits?
Iron... you might need to take a Xanax.
1. The NCAA is not looking away from scholarship manipulation. They (literally) can't afford to, because that would be in violation of Federal Law. If you don't think the NCAA has been investigating PSU, you're crazy. Any time a team starts showing dominance - they're getting a look-see.
2. What coach wouldn't have won titles with the lineups Cael's had? Quite possibly Tom and Terry. Keep in mind that this season was a National Championship team returning all of its points and we still finished in THIRD. There's something to be said for keeping your guys healthy enough to compete at NCAAs.
And you know why Cael had the lineups he's had? He's a better recruiter. Period. We've gone head to head for recruits and haven't exactly been on the winning side of them.
3. Get over it. Whether they over-recruit or not, they recruit better. It's all within the rules, and its not like they have some mass exodus when kids get recruited over. Carl's clearly doing something right if kids aren't just transferring out.
4. RBY is worth that much. how does he know? Because he was offered that much last year, but PSU has been one of the hardest schools on NILs. There are currently 2 wrestlers in the NCAA making 6 figures in wrestling - Iowa has one of them. NIL is nothing more than the market that already existed, but athletes were unable to take part in.
5. Yes. Iowa is going to have to pony up and get creative. Right now, we actually have a leg up on PSU, because our athletes have a much easier time securing NIL deals.
I think Iowa pays for those walk-on level recruits and and might expect them to produce.?
1)It is alright to live your life in fantasy land i guess? bellow, taken from another Thread, PROVEN!!!
PSU had a great recruit in a fella named Ira Lubert...came to PSU as a Talented Heavyweight in 1968...had a 3 win and 3 loss record but was a 3 year letterman for PSU .... was a good teammate and backed up a National Champ as a valuable practice partner... but His MAIN Contribution to the PSU wrestling program was his verbal and FINANCIAL contribution to recruiting Carl and when they flew in his private jet and made the offer...then came back home and made the MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR DONATION to the new wrestling facility at PSU and set in motion the entire " grey money" recruiting process that was set to change the direction of the PSU wrestling program. This isnt hate or speculation, hell most of this was taken from an April 20, 2018 State College .com online article. oh they deny the grey money significance and the tremendous pay raise that Carl was given as social media hype.....but oddly enough all this started at the same time when the superstar Nationwide recruits starting pouring in and stockpiling the shelves with talent and yet Carl couldn't get any of this done UNDER THE RULES at IOWA STATE ????? A school with a long and storied wrestling tradition couldn't pull the recruits or talent because they operated Under the NCAA rules. With all of this occurring it seems that maybe PSU did have an early start on this NIL and Transfer Portal situation... Hell maybe they PERFECTED IT ?
The NCAA has done nothing!
2)Let me explain it more clearly. the F*** st guys have out recruited at least the next 3 teams COMBINED!!! So, take any one of there titles. Lets use this year for an example. Michigan was 2nd, IOWA was 3rd. Take Suriano at 125, Desanto at 133, and go on down the line using the two teams. Who wins?
3) Yes you can recruit "better" IF you can offer more! Again, not unlike the Yankees teams from the 90's. they "recruited" much better according to you I guess?
4) NO college Wrestler is worth that much money! Spencer Lee, The best Wrestler in the World, or Gable Stevenson an Olympic champion even. You don't understand why I guess? Let me explain. how are they ever going to repay that money? How do they, unlike a Pro athlete, make their investors money?
5) I hope you are correct!
then there’s the fact that you have to have the money to be able to manage and spend it in order to make a difference. the more money to manage will yield the biggest difference.
Thanks for asking my opinion. And sorry i'm late to the party. i wanted to respond sooner but i had work i had to tie up.
My assessment, which, I'll say up front, isn't earth shattering - starts with something that seems to be an opinion that's in the minority around here: that Iowa is not as far off than most think. Y'all won a title and were sitting pretty for a second one until injuries hit.
I see criticisms on here often (and especially in late march, annually). but you know what other coaches say when i talk to them about TNT? they say 'those mfers can coach'. they're about as good as anyone.
there's only 1 'problem' as i can see it and that's 'health'.
I'm not a coach so i don't know what should and shouldn't be done. but what i do know is that you had a team to win the title in the beginning of the year before injuries hit.
I know very little about the intricacies of 'peaking' and/or throttling it up or down. But the question I think that needs to be asked is if the rash of injuries were just a whole lot of happenstance or was something that may have been systematic? was it something that can be mitigated in the future with different S&C applications?
I truly believe that neither recruiting nor some nefarious method in which Cael stretches schollies is the difference. Hell, you were the best team for a couple years, won a title and beat them in a dual.
And I was fortunate enough to be there at their big recruiting weekend and it was impressive - the energy in the room, the camaraderie. Tom basically had his pick of the litter. There's no question Iowa will be good going forward, it's just 'how good'? but, that's why we're here after all, right? because the Iowa standard isn't 'good' it's winning titles. you're a little spoiled haha. if i had any true advice it would be trust in the staff. they don't get any better than them dudes.
Smalls coming in off the top rope with one hell of a response. An answer like that is worth the wait I’d say.
I don’t understand why people on here are freaking out so damn much. Have you all seen our recruiting class next year? Iowa has steeped up their recruiting game in recent years and our fan base is large enough to support a pretty healthy NIL package.
We lost to PSU this year, won last year, and were heavy favorites the year before last. Nearly all of our “big” point scores had severe injuries this year….so yeah we lost.
If Iowa keeps recruiting like they have been in recent years, we’ll topple PSU again.
I do believe we’re going to have to be more aggressive in the transfer portal,,,Cael is competitive as hell and he’s going to do everything he can to keep winning. If Iowa doesn’t do the same, then that’s on Iowa. Does anyone really think that Iowa won’t do everything that they legally can?
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who do you see stepping in an challenging for a national title? I don’t see any top p4p guys coming in next year.
Jerusoga, Arnold, Kueter. All three of them are top of the line recruits. Kueter is questionable just because of football.
It's the 10 year drought that preceded 2020 and 2021 and with how things currently appear that it will be at minimum 3 more years after this year before anyone will have even a thought about making it on top. 4 years can turn to 10 in a hurry. The 2022 recruiting class has 2 hard working blue collar type guys and a lot of room guys. Yes they have some of the high end recruits we need lined up for 2023 but we need to consistently have more of the same to be in the discussion. We won last year and were in the running with a healthy team this year but it's 9 titles to 1 for us. 4 titles didn't cut it so they went and grabbed a 5th off another team for good measure but they didn't even need him.
This is a good take Smalls, but to say money has nothing to do with it is far from the truth. We are witnessing it again with Ohio St now, right after the NIL hit look at what they did with their last recruiting class. If donation money and possible alumni funded NIL deals had nothing to do with this I would be extremely surprised!
Another example I would use is Michigan, they are extremely well funded and they went out bought in , sorry brought in Suriano,Brucki and KJ , not to mention their Extremely well funded RTC that brought in a 2x Olympic and 6x world champion! Money has nothing to do with this?
1. You say "PROVEN" - then your source/facts is a message board thread? Come on man.
2. Not sure where you're going here, but this isn't the first time Carl has gone 5 for 5. And his winning percentage in the semis and finals is absolutely incomprehensible. That's coaching. Tom has had multiple #1 recruiting classes and is no where close.
3. Stop comparing Pro Sports to NCAA wrestling. PSU still has to deal with 9.9 just like everyone else. When you consider everything Cael and Co have done as a stuff - for their athletes. It's pretty damn hard for guys to say no.
4. You're wrong. And there's nothing you can say about it that will change that. You know why they're worth it? Because someone is paying them that. Companies are not in the business of giving athletes money just so they can go broke. Your value is what your pay says it is.
5. Me too. lol
I don't disagree with the first part that someone is willing to pay for it...however Companies just don't give money to something without a ROI, or a tax benefit...so if a company is willing to pay RBY 100k this year and next...what is the ROI to that company and is it worth it to that company? Does investing in RBY now, return that 100k down the road in some fashion for my company?
the new NIL thing that PSU just created...i'm curious if it is going to be some sort of tax-deductible business/charity that donors will get a tax benefit from it by donating.
He's been so successful that I forgot how much, 5/5 in 2017, 4/5 in 2018, 3/5 in 2019, 2021 4/4, and 5/5 in 2022. Has there ever been a 5 year run like that, 21/24? 87.5% in the finals over five years? I'd say it's coaching because there have been great runs by other schools in the past.
The five million dollar donation was in 2014. PSU had already won three (if not four) titles in a row when this donation was made. The winning led to the money, not the other way around.
And pre-NIL nobody was giving bags of money, particularly in FB & BB? I think you underestimate the innate insecurity a lot of guys have about the size of their you know whats. Not literally, but that need to be the cool guy following the winning team, with a tight circle knowing he helped pull in the required pieces.
Serious question, out of these champions how many were #1 recruits at their weight?
So there were no major donations directly before and when Carl arrived?
This is all about perspective. You’re looking at the last ten years, whereas I’m looking at the last 3. These past three years I believe that we’ve turned the corner and are now catching up to PSU. We still have a ways to go, but we’re moving in the right direction.
About next year, I’m not willing to write us off just yet. Looking at out current projected lineup I see 3 potential finalist (Lee, Big Cass, Warner) and 5 sure fire AA’s (Pk, Wyatt). I also see three others with the potential for a solid run and possible AA’s (Murin, Brands, Assad). So, I’m not writing off next year at all at this point. When you look at our JR class of recruits and factor in that we have a real shot at adding a fourth hammer, I’m not handing the next 3 years to PSU.
I believe too many people on this thread are looking at the past ten years, which were not good. I’m looking at the progress we’ve made to catch up. Much better view from my mountain top.
What didn't he do at Iowa St? Here are the results before, during, and immediately after Cael's term there:
In the years preceding Cael, no Big 12 titles, best finish 6th at NCAAs (average finish 12th).
During Cael's years, 3 for 3 winning Big 12, best finish 2nd at NCAAs (average 3rd).
After Cael, zero Big 12 titles again, best NCAA finish 3rd the year after with Cael's holdovers, then mediocrity at best (average 14th).
It seems foolish to discount the impact Cael had on Iowa St just because he didn't stay long enough to win 9 NCAAs. He dominated the Big 12 and improved the program's NCAA place by 9 places in the years he was there, and it immediately reverted when he left.
1) OH BOY! Yes proven I copied it, that does not me it was written by someone on here. Please read it again, it is FACT!
2)Please look at the recruiting rankings of these wrestlers and the seeds. In other words, if they were a #1 recruit, and a #1 seed. It is much more likely that they will win. While you are doing this, go back over the last 1o years and put in ALL the #1 he has had. THEN we can see what he has done. If over the ten years he has had say 30+? then his failure rate is pretty great. Just keep bringing them in and if 1 out of 5 hits, you are golden. He bought a returning AA in at 125 how did that work out? Also brought back a High end(maybe #1) the Burger. Tell me about this?
3) PSU laughs at 9.9. If you wish to bet. Just give me your run down of what their current team roster is getting. See if you can make an argument where 9.9 would be enough to have these wrestlers come to your school? LOL NO different then the NY Yankees back in the day or the current Alabama Football team.
4) Just because someone is willing to over pay for something, does not mean it is worth it. For example, at a charity auction, a wealth individual might over bid on an item because the $$$$ is going to a good cause that is important to him. If some wealthy individual has nothing better to do with a 100K+. Then give it to a college wrestler, where no return in investment is going to happen. Well what can you do about this?
5) OK
Maybe you didn't read the rest??? Someone flies you in on their private jet for a college wrestling job. Try reading The book written by Bosworth some time. Check into SMU Football back in the day. Get back to me!
Let's be clear. Sanderson is the best DI Head Coach there is and he was really good at ISU. But, let's not act like he was winning REMOTELY like he has done for PSU if he stayed at ISU. That is like saying Tom Brady would have won all those Super Bowls with the Detroit Lions.What didn't he do at Iowa St? Here are the results before, during, and immediately after Cael's term there:
In the years preceding Cael, no Big 12 titles, best finish 6th at NCAAs (average finish 12th).
During Cael's years, 3 for 3 winning Big 12, best finish 2nd at NCAAs (average 3rd).
After Cael, zero Big 12 titles again, best NCAA finish 3rd the year after with Cael's holdovers, then mediocrity at best (average 14th).
It seems foolish to discount the impact Cael had on Iowa St just because he didn't stay long enough to win 9 NCAAs. He dominated the Big 12 and improved the program's NCAA place by 9 places in the years he was there, and it immediately reverted when he left.
Sanderson KNEW ISU was stuck quite a ways behind Iowa for local talent and national recognition. Even his name and abilities weren't going to change that. That and MONEY is why he left for PSU as soon as the opportunity presented itself.
He would have been good enough to be a perennial top 5 contender and maybe win a title here and there, but there is NO WAY he comes close to doing what he has at PSU. Hell, his 1st couple of title were won with heavy contributions from Molinaro, Wright and Ruth, all of whom were at PSU before he got there. None of them were ever considering Iowa State. Hell, Ruth even went on record as saying he didn't even know who Cael Sanderson was...
I'd have to go back and check to be honest but has a streak like this ever happened prior to this one?
Have you ever donated anything to a non-profit? Let's say the Hawkeye Wrestling Club auctions off a nice Hawkeye Harley Davidson motorcycle. You, having just won the Powerball decide to bid $250,000 for the bike. At the end of the year, the HWC will issue you a tax document stating that you paid $250,000 for the motorcycle with a fair value of "X". you would give that to your accountant and he would deduct the difference as a charitable contribution. It is what it is. Pretty straight forward stuff. The HWC could issue you a document that list the bike with a value of $250. But they run the risk of losing their 501c3 status, and I doubt they would be dumb enough to do that.
Now if some booster wants to give an athlete money and write it off as a deduction they can certainly do that. But it ain't gonna hold up in an audit.
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