ROY - WNBA

[ZachJump]

Laughable Derp. Salary means nothing. It's all about eyes and all the eyes are on CC and her teammates. You can't be serious

Was never talking about Caitlin.

I also was not talking about salary…that’s a few bucks. The endorsements is where you save on the taxes. But hey…if you think making 10% more is not a big deal…damn I wish I had your kind of money.

 

[Tenacious E]

You think cost of living in Indy is a few hundred thousand per year cheaper than Vegas?

Not to mention….just how expensive is cost of living when it is provided for you?

I have friends that live in the same apartment complex as the Aces players live…not that expensive, and they don’t pay anyway….couple thousand a month.

But yes…literally no endorsement opportunities in Las Vegas. It is not like the last player on the bench got 100 grand recently just for existing.

I also was not talking about Caitlin, not that it matters, you think Nike is dropping her if she plays in Las Vegas? The one city that sells out it’s WNBA games with out her?

I will never say it is the only factor…but promise ya, tax rates play a large role in where players decide to play. Why do you think most Canadian teams cannot keep players, and why it is so hard for them to consistently sign free agents?

I never said that Vegas gets everyone..,, but with players only getting a couple hundred thousand in salary…a team that gives you more take home in your salary, plus the amount of built in endorsements Vegas provides…it will be attractive to many veterans.

Not to mention, the damn pool in the apartment complex has theater screens to chill and watch movies from. Granted, outside of hanging out at Walmart…not much else going on in Vegas that would make it an attractive city to live in.

Jesus Christ you don’t read very carefully. I didn’t say it was few hundred thousand a year cheaper in Indy. They only make 200k max. They don’t have that much to spend I terms of WNBA salary, let alone save. And I didn’t say Vegas did not have endorsement opportunities or that Nike would drop Caitlin. The point is that Caitlin is an endorsement opportunity and she’s in Indy, so there are tremendous opportunities for exposure in Indy. In terms of quality of life and entertainment, this was not part of the post I was responding to. You moved the goal posts and inserted that post hoc. We were only talking about income.

 

[ZachJump]

Jesus Christ you don’t read very carefully. I didn’t say it was few hundred thousand a year cheaper in Indy. They only make 200k max. They don’t have that much to spend I terms of WNBA salary, let alone save. And I didn’t say Vegas did not have endorsement opportunities or that Nike would drop Caitlin. The point is that Caitlin is an endorsement opportunity and she’s in Indy, so there are tremendous opportunities for exposure in Indy. In terms of quality of life and entertainment, this was not part of the post I was responding to. You moved the goal posts and inserted that post hoc. We were only talking about income.

You keep throwing in one player into the mix like Caitlin is the only way to money…hell Sabrina signed a bigger per year deal with Nike than Caitlin.

Promise ya, many of these women are making very good money from endorsements beyond Caitlin…and no doubt Caitlin did increase the amount many of these players get

Even if they all want to play with Caitlin…very limited roster spots in Indy, not to mention a salary cap.


…and hell, the only thing I said about Vegas to start with was it will always be attractive since it has the advantage of players being able to make more money (and maybe you think the same salary and same endorsements minus 10 percent in state taxes is the equivalent as the same salary and endorsements, but keeping the 10%)

 

[Tenacious E]

You keep throwing in one player into the mix like Caitlin is the only way to money…hell Sabrina signed a bigger per year deal with Nike than Caitlin.

Promise ya, many of these women are making very good money from endorsements beyond Caitlin…and no doubt Caitlin did increase the amount many of these players get

Even if they all want to play with Caitlin…very limited roster spots in Indy, not to mention a salary cap.


…and hell, the only thing I said about Vegas to start with was it will always be attractive since it has the advantage of players being able to make more money (and maybe you think the same salary and same endorsements minus 10 percent in state taxes is the equivalent as the same salary and endorsements, but keeping the 10%)

And Vegas has the same limitations on roster spots. Caitlin has completely disrupted the W economic and exposure model, like shaking a snow globe. Pre-Caitlin, the vast majority of people had no idea who any of these players were. Now I can attach a name and face to every player on the fever. I couldn’t tell you who over half the players are on any other team. Some like the mystics I can’t name a single player. People who have been W fans for years can, but I can’t, and millions of others can’t. Caitlin is and will be the epicenter of financial power for a number of years.

 

[ZachJump]

And Vegas has the same limitations on roster spots. Caitlin has completely disrupted the W economic and exposure model, like shaking a snow globe. Pre-Caitlin, the vast majority of people had no idea who any of these players were. Now I can attach a name and face to every player on the fever. I couldn’t tell you who over half the players are on any other team. Some like the mystics I can’t name a single player. People who have been W fans for years can, but I can’t, and millions of others can’t. Caitlin is and will be the epicenter of financial power for a number of years.

Jesus you have really latched on to me saying Vegas in that post that started this.

I was commenting on the idea that veteran players would be with the same team they are on now when the Olympics come around again…and just used Vegas as a city that could be attractive to them and gave a reason why it could be attractive. Good chance that Toronto will be able to land all the American players that think it is important to pay extra taxes to Canada.

New York will be attractive to those that want to be near broadway.

Phoenix will be a landing spot for those that think it is to cold in Vegas.

It was just an example of a place that could be attractive to the veterans mentioned in the post I was quoting.

Plenty of other cities that could be attractive for thousands of other reasons. Hell for some players, just not being part of the 24/7 circus in Indy might be a good enough of a reason to not consider Indy.

And how do you not know that those veteran players will not choose to go and play on teams with each other?

Teams like Vegas will always be able to attract players because of the inherent advantage that you will make considerably more money in Vegas than you will in New York and many other cities.

 

[Tenacious E]

Jesus you have really latched on to me saying Vegas in that post that started this.

I was commenting on the idea that veteran players would be with the same team they are on now when the Olympics come around again…and just used Vegas as a city that could be attractive to them and gave a reason why it could be attractive. Good chance that Toronto will be able to land all the American players that think it is important to pay extra taxes to Canada.

New York will be attractive to those that want to be near broadway.

Phoenix will be a landing spot for those that think it is to cold in Vegas.

It was just an example of a place that could be attractive to the veterans mentioned in the post I was quoting.

Plenty of other cities that could be attractive for thousands of other reasons. Hell for some players, just not being part of the 24/7 circus in Indy might be a good enough of a reason to not consider Indy.

You didn’t say any of that. Your premise was that Vegas had an inherent economic advantage over other teams, including New York. We were exploring that singular issue. You saying I’ve “latched” onto an issue just means I am staying on topic. At the end of the day, there are other factors which are not economic. But that was not the discussion.

 

[hoffmkr]

You didn’t say any of that. Your premise was that Vegas had an inherent economic advantage over other teams, including New York. We were exploring that singular issue. You saying I’ve “latched” onto an issue just means I am staying on topic. At the end of the day, there are other factors which are not economic. But that was not the discussion.

Until the league slaps them, The Vegas tourism bureau giving EVERY Aces player 100k each breaks the economic salary cap. A league minimum rookie making $160k vs $60k else where is huge. Not to mention a vet taking lessthan $230k max but ending up at $300k.

 

[Tenacious E]

Until the league slaps them, The Vegas tourism bureau giving EVERY Aces player 100k each breaks the economic salary cap. A league minimum rookie making $160k vs $60k else where is huge. Not to mention a vet taking lessthan $230k max but ending up at $300k.

That is a very interesting issue. I'm not sure where I come down on it. For example, Nike has Caitlin locked up for 8 years. If they think they can sell a million more sneakers netting another hundred million dollars or whatever the profits would be, they might have a financial interest in building her a super team and give every player who joins the fever a $500K endorsement deal, even if they would never receive such a deal if not for Caitlin and the fever. I guess this is the kind of imbalance you can have when the media rights deal in place is so shitty but the immediate endorsement deals are so good, relatively speaking.

 

[Titanhawk2]

Was never talking about Caitlin.

I also was not talking about salary…that’s a few bucks. The endorsements is where you save on the taxes. But hey…if you think making 10% more is not a big deal…damn I wish I had your kind of money.

In what world do you think money from endorsements is not taxed?

 

[Tenacious E]

In what world do you think money from endorsements is not taxed?

I think he is referring to state income tax

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

Geno Auriemma:
"If you're a great college player like Caitlin was, the delusional fan base that follows her disrespected the WNBA players by saying that she's gonna go in that league and tear it apart. ... These people are so disrespectful and so unknowledgeable and so stupid that it gives women's basketball a bad name... She's just not built for the physicality of this league, and she's not quick enough to get away from the physicality."

Rookie Caitlin Clark:

View embedded media

Gonzo ... this mischaracterizes Geno's intent of his interview. For those who don't believe me, here's the interview ...

Geno interview

Here is what Geno was contending ...

• He indicated that fans are dumb and disrespectful ( a no-duh statement ... fans are idiots )
• He indicated that uninformed Caitlin fans are disrespecting all of the talented players who are already in the WNBA by suggesting that Caitlin would immediately tear things up (and while Caitlin has played well as a rookie ... she's clearly been learning and improving a lot ... so she didn't tear things up on day 1)
• If you pay attention ... he was actually indicating that he was feeling sorry for Caitlin, because he was afraid that the fans were setting her up for failure by painting a target on her back. If you've been watching Caitllin play ... you darn well know that she's been targeted. How many flagrant fouls has she had to endure?
• While Caitlin was pretty slight of build a few years back ... she's worked really hard to build muscle. However, all the same, she still looks pretty slight. Caitlin is 6-foot and a buck-50. You look at Sabrina ... one of the more direct comps ... she's 5-11 and 165. Even Kelsey Mitchell ... who is just 5-8 is at 160. So you can understand where a veteran coach might be thinking that Caitlin isn't "built" to take the fouls she's gonna endure this season (b/c players feel disrespected by the fans). What Geno is not accounting for is that Caitlin is hyper, hyper competitive and grew up playing ball against her brothers ... she embraces the challenge ... if she's getting targeted like that ... it's fuel. My point here simply being that Geno was being foolishly paternalistic here ... the intent was more out of concern for Caitlin ... damn patriarchy!

Another thing to know, in order to put this is context, is that Geno is an awesome coach. Part of what makes him an awesome coach is that his players know that he 100% has their backs. So part of what he was saying was also in defense of Diana Taurasi (hence, him indicating that "Diana was right"). Furthermore, he created such a dynasty that the WNBA is littered with former UConn players ... so when he says that dumb Caitlin fans are disrespecting the WNBA ... he takes it personally, because its disrespecting his beloved players.

Anyhow, if folks actually watch the interview ... little, if any, of the content is actually meant as any sort of negative against Caitlin.

I think that this is a nice illustration of how folks these days take what another says (out of context) ... and then weaponizes it.

All that said, it is pretty damn cool that Caitlin HAS been on a tear. Furthermore, if you've been watching her game evolve through the season ... she's initially asserted herself more towards assisting the ball ... and that has put more pressure on opposing Ds. She's then subsequently been getting more used to the pace and physicality of the game ... and her shot has been falling better as of late. For a time there ... here percentage on 3-pointers was something like 33.2% ... and now it's creeping above 34%. Given that she still had a good volume of shots in the first 2/3 of the season ... that's an indication that her 3-ball has been dropping better (for any myriad of reasons).

I'm proud that Caitlin has been "climbing" the proverbial ladder faster than many prognosticators have supposed (Geno included). To turn Geno's thought-process on its ear ... maybe he's having trouble admitting that Caitlin really is as good as she is. If Caitlin tears it up in the WNBA early in her career ... maybe that isn't a disrespectful indictment of the WNBA ... but rather a reflection that Caitlin is just really the f---ing good!

 

[Tenacious E]

Gonzo ... this mischaracterizes Geno's intent of his interview. For those who don't believe me, here's the interview ...

Geno interview

Here is what Geno was contending ...

• He indicated that fans are dumb and disrespectful ( a no-duh statement ... fans are idiots )
• He indicated that uninformed Caitlin fans are disrespecting all of the talented players who are already in the WNBA by suggesting that Caitlin would immediately tear things up (and while Caitlin has played well as a rookie ... she's clearly been learning and improving a lot ... so she didn't tear things up on day 1)
• If you pay attention ... he was actually indicating that he was feeling sorry for Caitlin, because he was afraid that the fans were setting her up for failure by painting a target on her back. If you've been watching Caitllin play ... you darn well know that she's been targeted. How many flagrant fouls has she had to endure?
• While Caitlin was pretty slight of build a few years back ... she's worked really hard to build muscle. However, all the same, she still looks pretty slight. Caitlin is 6-foot and a buck-50. You look at Sabrina ... one of the more direct comps ... she's 5-11 and 165. Even Kelsey Mitchell ... who is just 5-8 is at 160. So you can understand where a veteran coach might be thinking that Caitlin isn't "built" to take the fouls she's gonna endure this season (b/c players feel disrespected by the fans). What Geno is not accounting for is that Caitlin is hyper, hyper competitive and grew up playing ball against her brothers ... she embraces the challenge ... if she's getting targeted like that ... it's fuel. My point here simply being that Geno was being foolishly paternalistic here ... the intent was more out of concern for Caitlin ... damn patriarchy!

Another thing to know, in order to put this is context, is that Geno is an awesome coach. Part of what makes him an awesome coach is that his players know that he 100% has their backs. So part of what he was saying was also in defense of Diana Taurasi (hence, him indicating that "Diana was right"). Furthermore, he created such a dynasty that the WNBA is littered with former UConn players ... so when he says that dumb Caitlin fans are disrespecting the WNBA ... he takes it personally, because its disrespecting his beloved players.

Anyhow, if folks actually watch the interview ... little, if any, of the content is actually meant as any sort of negative against Caitlin.

I think that this is a nice illustration of how folks these days take what another says (out of context) ... and then weaponizes it.

All that said, it is pretty damn cool that Caitlin HAS been on a tear. Furthermore, if you've been watching her game evolve through the season ... she's initially asserted herself more towards assisting the ball ... and that has put more pressure on opposing Ds. She's then subsequently been getting more used to the pace and physicality of the game ... and her shot has been falling better as of late. For a time there ... here percentage on 3-pointers was something like 33.2% ... and now it's creeping above 34%. Given that she still had a good volume of shots in the first 2/3 of the season ... that's an indication that her 3-ball has been dropping better (for any myriad of reasons).

I'm proud that Caitlin has been "climbing" the proverbial ladder faster than many prognosticators have supposed (Geno included). To turn Geno's thought-process on its ear ... maybe he's having trouble admitting that Caitlin really is as good as she is. If Caitlin tears it up in the WNBA early in her career ... maybe that isn't a disrespectful indictment of the WNBA ... but rather a reflection that Caitlin is just really the f---ing good!

"He indicated that uninformed Caitlin fans are disrespecting all of the talented players who are already in the WNBA by suggesting that Caitlin would immediately tear things up (and while Caitlin has played well as a rookie ... she's clearly been learning and improving a lot ... so she didn't tear things up on day 1)" That's a pretty fooking narrow interpretation of his comments, and ignores his next sentence in the interview. He went on to say that fans taking odds that she would be in the top 3 or 4 of the MVP were so unknowledgeable, disrespectful, and stupid, that it that it gives women's basketball a bad name. He was clearly talking about YEAR 1, not DAY 1. He was not only flat out wrong, he himself was disingenuous and disrespectful. Moreover, it is ironic to say people aren't red or blue but somewhere in the middle, and then to go on to set up his own hard boundaries on her, in the interest of his tribalism in favor of all things UCONN which you lauded.

 

[Tenacious E]

Gonzo ... this mischaracterizes Geno's intent of his interview. For those who don't believe me, here's the interview ...

Geno interview

Here is what Geno was contending ...

• He indicated that fans are dumb and disrespectful ( a no-duh statement ... fans are idiots )
• He indicated that uninformed Caitlin fans are disrespecting all of the talented players who are already in the WNBA by suggesting that Caitlin would immediately tear things up (and while Caitlin has played well as a rookie ... she's clearly been learning and improving a lot ... so she didn't tear things up on day 1)
• If you pay attention ... he was actually indicating that he was feeling sorry for Caitlin, because he was afraid that the fans were setting her up for failure by painting a target on her back. If you've been watching Caitllin play ... you darn well know that she's been targeted. How many flagrant fouls has she had to endure?
• While Caitlin was pretty slight of build a few years back ... she's worked really hard to build muscle. However, all the same, she still looks pretty slight. Caitlin is 6-foot and a buck-50. You look at Sabrina ... one of the more direct comps ... she's 5-11 and 165. Even Kelsey Mitchell ... who is just 5-8 is at 160. So you can understand where a veteran coach might be thinking that Caitlin isn't "built" to take the fouls she's gonna endure this season (b/c players feel disrespected by the fans). What Geno is not accounting for is that Caitlin is hyper, hyper competitive and grew up playing ball against her brothers ... she embraces the challenge ... if she's getting targeted like that ... it's fuel. My point here simply being that Geno was being foolishly paternalistic here ... the intent was more out of concern for Caitlin ... damn patriarchy!

Another thing to know, in order to put this is context, is that Geno is an awesome coach. Part of what makes him an awesome coach is that his players know that he 100% has their backs. So part of what he was saying was also in defense of Diana Taurasi (hence, him indicating that "Diana was right"). Furthermore, he created such a dynasty that the WNBA is littered with former UConn players ... so when he says that dumb Caitlin fans are disrespecting the WNBA ... he takes it personally, because its disrespecting his beloved players.

Anyhow, if folks actually watch the interview ... little, if any, of the content is actually meant as any sort of negative against Caitlin.

I think that this is a nice illustration of how folks these days take what another says (out of context) ... and then weaponizes it.

All that said, it is pretty damn cool that Caitlin HAS been on a tear. Furthermore, if you've been watching her game evolve through the season ... she's initially asserted herself more towards assisting the ball ... and that has put more pressure on opposing Ds. She's then subsequently been getting more used to the pace and physicality of the game ... and her shot has been falling better as of late. For a time there ... here percentage on 3-pointers was something like 33.2% ... and now it's creeping above 34%. Given that she still had a good volume of shots in the first 2/3 of the season ... that's an indication that her 3-ball has been dropping better (for any myriad of reasons).

I'm proud that Caitlin has been "climbing" the proverbial ladder faster than many prognosticators have supposed (Geno included). To turn Geno's thought-process on its ear ... maybe he's having trouble admitting that Caitlin really is as good as she is. If Caitlin tears it up in the WNBA early in her career ... maybe that isn't a disrespectful indictment of the WNBA ... but rather a reflection that Caitlin is just really the f---ing good!

I would add that his tone during that entire interview was condescending assholiness. He said she was on the wrong team, that she lacks the physicality for the league, and that she was not quick enough to get away from the physicality of the league. Again, he was just being an asshole with a hot take in the interest of tribalism. Caitlin has been putting the entire league on skates and making them look foolish on defense (with some turnovers, of course). That does not mean he's dumb or not a great coach. He obviously is. But, that does not change anything else I have posted here.

 

[nck24]

P

I would add that his tone during that entire interview was condescending assholiness. He said she was on the wrong team, that she lacks the physicality for the league, and that she was not quick enough to get away from the physicality of the league. Again, he was just being an asshole with a hot take in the interest of tribalism. Caitlin has been putting the entire league on skates and making them look foolish on defense (with some turnovers, of course). That does not mean he's dumb or not a great coach. He obviously is. But, that does not change anything else I have posted here.

A lot of great coaches are, or have been, assholes. Geno didn't have to be condescending, he simply chose to be. Just another voice added to those that made great effort to marginalize CC's accomplishments in college, and into her Pro career. CC has silenced them all. Except Sheryl. Don't be like Sheryl.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

"He indicated that uninformed Caitlin fans are disrespecting all of the talented players who are already in the WNBA by suggesting that Caitlin would immediately tear things up (and while Caitlin has played well as a rookie ... she's clearly been learning and improving a lot ... so she didn't tear things up on day 1)" That's a pretty fooking narrow interpretation of his comments, and ignores his next sentence in the interview. He went on to say that fans taking odds that she would be in the top 3 or 4 of the MVP were so unknowledgeable, disrespectful, and stupid, that it that it gives women's basketball a bad name. He was clearly talking about YEAR 1, not DAY 1. He was not only flat out wrong, he himself was disingenuous and disrespectful. Moreover, it is ironic to say people aren't red or blue but somewhere in the middle, and then to go on to set up his own hard boundaries on her, in the interest of his tribalism in favor of all things UCONN which you lauded.

One of his examples that he used was that folks were betting on her being league MVP for the season. That IS disrespectful because it's suggesting that Caitlin, as a rookie, would already be better than all the talent that is already in the league. How could you NOT see that?

Also, I was suggesting that Geno's tribalism is understandable ... aren't you advancing your own tribalism by supporting a Hawkeye whom you (falsely) feel is being affronted? If you're a player ... wouldn't you want/expect that your coach would have your back?

And yeah ... I agree with him in thinking that most sports fans are morons. It doesn't matter to me if they're Caitlin fans or not.

Geno's dedicated his life to the women's game ... and he's done a great job of helping advance it. I don't blame him if he is affronted when he feels that existing players are being undermined. Do I agree with him concerning his interpretation? No ... but I can understand him.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

I would add that his tone during that entire interview was condescending assholiness. He said she was on the wrong team, that she lacks the physicality for the league, and that she was not quick enough to get away from the physicality of the league. Again, he was just being an asshole with a hot take in the interest of tribalism. Caitlin has been putting the entire league on skates and making them look foolish on defense (with some turnovers, of course). That does not mean he's dumb or not a great coach. He obviously is. But, that does not change anything else I have posted here.

As I indicated before, given Caitlin's relatively slight build ... Geno's comment about the physicality is understandable. It doesn't make him correct ... but it is an understandable perspective. It's like saying that Mitch King lacked the physicality to play DT in the Big 10 ... based on the fact that he had to play as a RS FR at a weight of around 240 lb. Did that make it harder on him .... hell yeah! Did he manage to pull it off? Yeah ... and to be able to be successful he had to exploit great leverage, technique, and his explosiveness.
As for the comment about quickness ... I actually don't think that is wrong. There are players in the WNBA who are cat-quick ... and Caitlin isn't one of them. One of Caitlin's super-powers is that she PLAYS fast ... but that is different from being quick. Also, Caitlin's other super-powers are that she has tremendous vision, she's a tremendously decisive thinker, and she's a great shooter with range. There are so many great things about Caitlin, that it's foolish to get your nose out of joint against valid criticisms.

If you really want to get your nose out of joint ... Geno could have also been rightly critical about Caitlin being a defensive liability.

I'll need to go back and watch the comment about the statement concerning her being on the wrong team. I forgot the context of that. However, looking at the start of the season ... you could argue that it didn't do Caitlin any favors to be playing on such a young team ... particularly one that didn't play very good defense. If this was his perspective ... then it may have been a more ideal situation for Caitlin to land on a team where she could benefit more from veteran leadership ... and on a team that played at a defensive-level that would complement her O. Hell, weren't Iowa fans here complaining about the Fever's head coach early on? Again ... doesn't make them right either (fans are stupid, after all)!

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

A lot of great coaches are, or have been, assholes. Geno didn't have to be condescending, he simply chose to be. Just another voice added to those that made great effort to marginalize CC's accomplishments in college, and into her Pro career. CC has silenced them all. Except Sheryl. Don't be like Sheryl.

I think that part of it could also be attributable to the coach's view of their own knowledge of the game versus the knowledge of the game possessed by the casual fan. Many folks think that all opinions are equal ... but they're not. The strength of an opinion is reliant on the strength of their supporting evidence. When it comes to opinions about women's basketball ... you better believe that Geno's opinion is more credible than that of most fans.

 

[Tenacious E]

One of his examples that he used was that folks were betting on her being league MVP for the season. That IS disrespectful because it's suggesting that Caitlin, as a rookie, would already be better than all the talent that is already in the league. How could you NOT see that?

Also, I was suggesting that Geno's tribalism is understandable ... aren't you advancing your own tribalism by supporting a Hawkeye whom you (falsely) feel is being affronted? If you're a player ... wouldn't you want/expect that your coach would have your back?

And yeah ... I agree with him in thinking that most sports fans are morons. It doesn't matter to me if they're Caitlin fans or not.

Geno's dedicated his life to the women's game ... and he's done a great job of helping advance it. I don't blame him if he is affronted when he feels that existing players are being undermined. Do I agree with him concerning his interpretation? No ... but I can understand him.

You need to listen to what he said. He said there "are actually odds on her being MVP" and that she's third or fourth with the odds, and that people are so unknowledgeable, disrespectful, and stupid, that it that it gives women's basketball a bad name. She's going to be 2nd or 3rd in the voting when it is all said or done, and there is colorable argument she should be the MVP. So how does that make Iowa fans jackasses and not him, when he counted her out at the beginning of the season? And what would you say if they defy the odds and make a deep run in the playoffs or win the whole damn thing?

As far as tribalism, I would be the first to admit I am a homer for the Hawks and Caitlin. But all I hope for in life and for Caitlin is a meritocracy. She was prejudged by the coach of UCONN on the Dan Patrick show and his takes were atrocious. The reason this raises my ire is just what an emphatic asshole he was about it on the most public of forums, he has been proven absolutely wrong, and it is patently obvious he did it to push for his own brand and players.

 

[Tenacious E]

As I indicated before, given Caitlin's relatively slight build ... Geno's comment about the physicality is understandable. It doesn't make him correct ... but it is an understandable perspective. It's like saying that Mitch King lacked the physicality to play DT in the Big 10 ... based on the fact that he had to play as a RS FR at a weight of around 240 lb. Did that make it harder on him .... hell yeah! Did he manage to pull it off? Yeah ... and to be able to be successful he had to exploit great leverage, technique, and his explosiveness.
As for the comment about quickness ... I actually don't think that is wrong. There are players in the WNBA who are cat-quick ... and Caitlin isn't one of them. One of Caitlin's super-powers is that she PLAYS fast ... but that is different from being quick. Also, Caitlin's other super-powers are that she has tremendous vision, she's a tremendously decisive thinker, and she's a great shooter with range. There are so many great things about Caitlin, that it's foolish to get your nose out of joint against valid criticisms.

If you really want to get your nose out of joint ... Geno could have also been rightly critical about Caitlin being a defensive liability.

I'll need to go back and watch the comment about the statement concerning her being on the wrong team. I forgot the context of that. However, looking at the start of the season ... you could argue that it didn't do Caitlin any favors to be playing on such a young team ... particularly one that didn't play very good defense. If this was his perspective ... then it may have been a more ideal situation for Caitlin to land on a team where she could benefit more from veteran leadership ... and on a team that played at a defensive-level that would complement her O. Hell, weren't Iowa fans here complaining about the Fever's head coach early on? Again ... doesn't make them right either (fans are stupid, after all)!

Geno's comment wasn't that there are quicker guards in the W, his comment was that that she lacks the physicality for the league, and that she was not quick enough to get away from the physicality of the league. Those are two entirely different concepts, and just BS.

With regard to defense, I would agree it's not her strong suit, although she is better than people give her credit for.

With regard to the rest of your post, the point is that he made harsh, categorical judgments regarding her at beginning of the season. Is the Fever the right team for Caitlin? Time will tell. Things are looking good. And again, I would never say Geno doesn't know 1,000,000x more about women's basketball than me. But that doesn't make him infallible, and it doesn't make him not an asshole. He can be an asshole if he wants, but I sure as hell am not watching his teams play, unless they are playing Iowa.

 

[nck24]

I think that part of it could also be attributable to the coach's view of their own knowledge of the game versus the knowledge of the game possessed by the casual fan. Many folks think that all opinions are equal ... but they're not. The strength of an opinion is reliant on the strength of their supporting evidence. When it comes to opinions about women's basketball ... you better believe that Geno's opinion is more credible than that of most fans.

 

[nck24]

And yet...his opinion was wrong on every level, and that of the stupid, disrespectful casual Iowa fans have been pretty accurate.

 

[NCHawkeye24]

I think one thing to keep in mind with respect to Geno is his perspective on his way, or what he determines to be, the right way to play the game. If CC had to play in a UConn type system where the team is centered around a really talented big, then CC may be too slight to take the physicality and maybe not quick enough in a half-court type set to beat a defender consistently off the dribble. I give him that.

What he did not account for is that CC has totally changed the style of play for all of women's basketball. While she may not be the quickest or the toughest, her 94' court vision and her stamina negate those perceived weaknesses. What CC has done in only 34 games with very very little practice to begin the season has been remarkable because she came into the league with a coach shoehorning her into that Geno type style and having teammates that did not accept her fully into a team now that she absolutely commands, her teammates seem to love her and changing the entire style of play.

What is even more incredible is how she has made her teammates so much better and I don't think any of us saw that coming. Mitchell was a ball hog and now she is feasting on CC's game and who thought AB would be able to run up and down the court? CC has also completely changed the depth chart as well beyond KM and AB, and, they are winning.

Last I looked CC is 2nd in the vegas odds for league MVP. Sure, I think Wilson is way ahead, but, but, if Indiana wins out which would include 2 wins over LV, a better record, and CC has a few triple doubles or a 40 piece in there somewhere, the voting will be much closer than anyone imagined.

 

[BrotherHawkeye]

I think it’s apparent that Geno likes to be right, but more importantly, he detests being wrong. He was wrong about Caitlin 6 years ago and he was wrong about her when he made those comments on DP’s show.

Signed,

A disrespectful, delusional, stupid fan.

 

[Gonzo Bloor]

Geno's problem is largely the same as AirSwoopes' problem... they've been around WBB all their lives and feel as though they speak the word of God when it comes to women's basketball and nobody should even think about questioning them or what they have to say.

I hear all about how people like them have devoted their lives to "advancing women's basketball." Where did they want to advance it to? More fans? More coverage? More publicity? Bigger arenas? Bigger TV deals? If that's what they've devoted their lives to achieving, they should have known that expanding WBB fandom would result in new fans who haven't followed the sport and who don't have the depth of knowledge they do. So on one hand they want to advance the game, and then on the other hand they verbally crap all over those new fans for not knowing as much about the sport as they do.

And if they really want women's basketball to grow, they'd be relishing what's happening right now and recognizing it's due mostly to one rookie.

 

[Gonzo Bloor]

I think that part of it could also be attributable to the coach's view of their own knowledge of the game versus the knowledge of the game possessed by the casual fan. Many folks think that all opinions are equal ... but they're not. The strength of an opinion is reliant on the strength of their supporting evidence. When it comes to opinions about women's basketball ... you better believe that Geno's opinion is more credible than that of most fans.

I've worked with some really smart people, and the smartest person in the room is usually the one who doesn't feel the need to prove they're the smartest or who tries making others in the room feel stupid.

 

[spiderland]

Geno's problem is largely the same as AirSwoopes' problem... they've been around WBB all their lives and feel as though they speak the word of God when it comes to women's basketball and nobody should even think about questioning them or what they have to say.

I hear all about how people like them have devoted their lives to "advancing women's basketball." Where did they want to advance it to? More fans? More coverage? More publicity? Bigger arenas? Bigger TV deals?

If they’ve attempted to advance the game, they’ve done a pretty piss poor job of it in comparison what one 22-year old woman has been able to do. Numbers don’t lie.

 

[BrotherHawkeye]

If they’ve attempted to advance the game, they’ve done a pretty piss poor job of it in comparison what one 22-year old woman has been able to do. Numbers don’t lie.

They may have advanced the game, but not the popularity of the game.

 

[Tenacious E]

I think one thing to keep in mind with respect to Geno is his perspective on his way, or what he determines to be, the right way to play the game. If CC had to play in a UConn type system where the team is centered around a really talented big, then CC may be too slight to take the physicality and maybe not quick enough in a half-court type set to beat a defender consistently off the dribble. I give him that.

What he did not account for is that CC has totally changed the style of play for all of women's basketball. While she may not be the quickest or the toughest, her 94' court vision and her stamina negate those perceived weaknesses. What CC has done in only 34 games with very very little practice to begin the season has been remarkable because she came into the league with a coach shoehorning her into that Geno type style and having teammates that did not accept her fully into a team now that she absolutely commands, her teammates seem to love her and changing the entire style of play.

What is even more incredible is how she has made her teammates so much better and I don't think any of us saw that coming. Mitchell was a ball hog and now she is feasting on CC's game and who thought AB would be able to run up and down the court? CC has also completely changed the depth chart as well beyond KM and AB, and, they are winning.

Last I looked CC is 2nd in the vegas odds for league MVP. Sure, I think Wilson is way ahead, but, but, if Indiana wins out which would include 2 wins over LV, a better record, and CC has a few triple doubles or a 40 piece in there somewhere, the voting will be much closer than anyone imagined.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

I think one thing to keep in mind with respect to Geno is his perspective on his way, or what he determines to be, the right way to play the game. If CC had to play in a UConn type system where the team is centered around a really talented big, then CC may be too slight to take the physicality and maybe not quick enough in a half-court type set to beat a defender consistently off the dribble. I give him that.

What he did not account for is that CC has totally changed the style of play for all of women's basketball. While she may not be the quickest or the toughest, her 94' court vision and her stamina negate those perceived weaknesses. What CC has done in only 34 games with very very little practice to begin the season has been remarkable because she came into the league with a coach shoehorning her into that Geno type style and having teammates that did not accept her fully into a team now that she absolutely commands, her teammates seem to love her and changing the entire style of play.

What is even more incredible is how she has made her teammates so much better and I don't think any of us saw that coming. Mitchell was a ball hog and now she is feasting on CC's game and who thought AB would be able to run up and down the court? CC has also completely changed the depth chart as well beyond KM and AB, and, they are winning.

Last I looked CC is 2nd in the vegas odds for league MVP. Sure, I think Wilson is way ahead, but, but, if Indiana wins out which would include 2 wins over LV, a better record, and CC has a few triple doubles or a 40 piece in there somewhere, the voting will be much closer than anyone imagined.

Great post!

It's interesting to also note that he's been critical of South Carolina for their physical style of play.

As you point out ... Geno has reasons for his perspective ... and they might not be entirely off the mark ... however, nor are they correct. As you point out, the Caitlin paradigm and the skill-set she brings to the table is different ... and changes the conversation.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

Geno's problem is largely the same as AirSwoopes' problem... they've been around WBB all their lives and feel as though they speak the word of God when it comes to women's basketball and nobody should even think about questioning them or what they have to say.

I hear all about how people like them have devoted their lives to "advancing women's basketball." Where did they want to advance it to? More fans? More coverage? More publicity? Bigger arenas? Bigger TV deals? If that's what they've devoted their lives to achieving, they should have known that expanding WBB fandom would result in new fans who haven't followed the sport and who don't have the depth of knowledge they do. So on one hand they want to advance the game, and then on the other hand they verbally crap all over those new fans for not knowing as much about the sport as they do.

And if they really want women's basketball to grow, they'd be relishing what's happening right now and recognizing it's due mostly to one rookie.

I imagine that there is also a healthy dose of envy (from Geno).

He's worked hard and long to be a significant proponent for the women's game.

Then it's strange when the dynamicism of a single player brings so much more attention to the game. Caitlin is the "flash" in the game that's he's long attempted to quell in favor of team-based ball that revolves around a roster of elite-talent.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

I've worked with some really smart people, and the smartest person in the room is usually the one who doesn't feel the need to prove they're the smartest or who tries making others in the room feel stupid.

You apparently don't know many theoretical physicists.

 

[Gonzo Bloor]

You apparently don't know many theoretical physicists.

I spent a good chunk of time early in my career working around clinical psychologists, PhDs and PsyDs... I've never seen a group of people more committed to proving THEY were the smartest person in the room, in my life.

 

[spiderland]

They may have advanced the game, but not the popularity of the game.

What does “advanced” mean exactly? Doesn’t advancement imply movement, which can be measured?

 

[NCHawkeye24]

Great post!

It's interesting to also note that he's been critical of South Carolina for their physical style of play.

As you point out ... Geno has reasons for his perspective ... and they might not be entirely off the mark ... however, nor are they correct. As you point out, the Caitlin paradigm and the skill-set she brings to the table is different ... and changes the conversation.

You know when I first talked about CC I mentioned her court vision and stamina to sustain her pace of play, yet, I completely neglected her shooting range. Nobody has ever seen that in women's basketball at any level.

Face it, the way that Geno and Dawn has won has been to attract the best post players and build around them. There are so many that its not worth mentioning, it is just a rinse and repeat. Sure, both have had some good guard play, but, the guards have been rarely, if ever, the center of the team. CC is such an outlier that neither one of them have any knowledge whatsoever of what do do with her or judge her. For both of them to be so wrong about her impact on the league in her rookie season just goes to show that.

To give credit where credit is due, you have to give Lisa Bluder all the credit in the world for building such a dynamic system around CC's talents. That took a lot of vision and guts really, to allow your guard to have the green light when she crossed half court. I don't think there is any way that CC would be CC if she played at SC or UConn. For that reason and what I said above, I don't give credit to Geno and Dawn for being great coaches with regards to x's and o's, but they are great coaches in the college game to be able to recruit the talent that fits their systems. And on top of that, which I give them even more credit for, is somehow able to keep an entire roster of 5* recruits happy with playing a limited or no role on a team. That is an art.

 

[AWS1022]

Gonzo ... this mischaracterizes Geno's intent of his interview. For those who don't believe me, here's the interview ...

Geno interview

Here is what Geno was contending ...

• He indicated that fans are dumb and disrespectful ( a no-duh statement ... fans are idiots )
• He indicated that uninformed Caitlin fans are disrespecting all of the talented players who are already in the WNBA by suggesting that Caitlin would immediately tear things up (and while Caitlin has played well as a rookie ... she's clearly been learning and improving a lot ... so she didn't tear things up on day 1)
• If you pay attention ... he was actually indicating that he was feeling sorry for Caitlin, because he was afraid that the fans were setting her up for failure by painting a target on her back. If you've been watching Caitllin play ... you darn well know that she's been targeted. How many flagrant fouls has she had to endure?
• While Caitlin was pretty slight of build a few years back ... she's worked really hard to build muscle. However, all the same, she still looks pretty slight. Caitlin is 6-foot and a buck-50. You look at Sabrina ... one of the more direct comps ... she's 5-11 and 165. Even Kelsey Mitchell ... who is just 5-8 is at 160. So you can understand where a veteran coach might be thinking that Caitlin isn't "built" to take the fouls she's gonna endure this season (b/c players feel disrespected by the fans). What Geno is not accounting for is that Caitlin is hyper, hyper competitive and grew up playing ball against her brothers ... she embraces the challenge ... if she's getting targeted like that ... it's fuel. My point here simply being that Geno was being foolishly paternalistic here ... the intent was more out of concern for Caitlin ... damn patriarchy!

Another thing to know, in order to put this is context, is that Geno is an awesome coach. Part of what makes him an awesome coach is that his players know that he 100% has their backs. So part of what he was saying was also in defense of Diana Taurasi (hence, him indicating that "Diana was right"). Furthermore, he created such a dynasty that the WNBA is littered with former UConn players ... so when he says that dumb Caitlin fans are disrespecting the WNBA ... he takes it personally, because its disrespecting his beloved players.

Anyhow, if folks actually watch the interview ... little, if any, of the content is actually meant as any sort of negative against Caitlin.

I think that this is a nice illustration of how folks these days take what another says (out of context) ... and then weaponizes it.

All that said, it is pretty damn cool that Caitlin HAS been on a tear. Furthermore, if you've been watching her game evolve through the season ... she's initially asserted herself more towards assisting the ball ... and that has put more pressure on opposing Ds. She's then subsequently been getting more used to the pace and physicality of the game ... and her shot has been falling better as of late. For a time there ... here percentage on 3-pointers was something like 33.2% ... and now it's creeping above 34%. Given that she still had a good volume of shots in the first 2/3 of the season ... that's an indication that her 3-ball has been dropping better (for any myriad of reasons).

I'm proud that Caitlin has been "climbing" the proverbial ladder faster than many prognosticators have supposed (Geno included). To turn Geno's thought-process on its ear ... maybe he's having trouble admitting that Caitlin really is as good as she is. If Caitlin tears it up in the WNBA early in her career ... maybe that isn't a disrespectful indictment of the WNBA ... but rather a reflection that Caitlin is just really the f---ing good!

When Bob Huggins was asked about Geno and his amazing coaching ability, Huggins said “He’s the world’s tallest midget.” I think that about sums it up.

 

[Herky T Hawk]

You know when I first talked about CC I mentioned her court vision and stamina to sustain her pace of play, yet, I completely neglected her shooting range. Nobody has ever seen that in women's basketball at any level.

Face it, the way that Geno and Dawn has won has been to attract the best post players and build around them. There are so many that its not worth mentioning, it is just a rinse and repeat. Sure, both have had some good guard play, but, the guards have been rarely, if ever, the center of the team. CC is such an outlier that neither one of them have any knowledge whatsoever of what do do with her or judge her. For both of them to be so wrong about her impact on the league in her rookie season just goes to show that.

To give credit where credit is due, you have to give Lisa Bluder all the credit in the world for building such a dynamic system around CC's talents. That took a lot of vision and guts really, to allow your guard to have the green light when she crossed half court. I don't think there is any way that CC would be CC if she played at SC or UConn. For that reason and what I said above, I don't give credit to Geno and Dawn for being great coaches with regards to x's and o's, but they are great coaches in the college game to be able to recruit the talent that fits their systems. And on top of that, which I give them even more credit for, is somehow able to keep an entire roster of 5* recruits happy with playing a limited or no role on a team. That is an art.

The women’s players knew that the talent pool was not that big, especially internationally. The players like Stokes could have gone to an Iowa and been an immediate starter but not experience team success. Or they could go to UConn, be a backup for a few years while playing in a Final Four or two with a title, then potentially be a starter with another Final Four and title. When they were done the WNBA would draft them because of the UConn pedigree and they could make money overseas too.

Hopefully that changes as the game builds international players and with the success of players like CC who paved their own path at non-traditional powers. College basketball is a lot more interesting when schools like Butler on the men’s side and Iowa on the women’s side are able to make the title game and when talent isn’t concentrated at a few schools. Then you’ll see who really can coach versus the people that just recruit the most talent.

 

[hahkize]

To give credit where credit is due, you have to give Lisa Bluder all the credit in the world for building such a dynamic system around CC's talents. That took a lot of vision and guts really, to allow your guard to have the green light when she crossed half court. I don't think there is any way that CC would be CC if she played at SC or UConn. For that reason and what I said above, I don't give credit to Geno and Dawn for being great coaches with regards to x's and o's, but they are great coaches in the college game to be able to recruit the talent that fits their systems. And on top of that, which I give them even more credit for, is somehow able to keep an entire roster of 5* recruits happy with playing a limited or no role on a team. That is an art.

If you have a Derby level horse, you ride it. Often.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

I spent a good chunk of time early in my career working around clinical psychologists, PhDs and PsyDs... I've never seen a group of people more committed to proving THEY were the smartest person in the room, in my life.

That's funny ... psychologists are one of the groups most full of hot-air. An attempt by them to be the "big brain" is just amusing to me ... kinda like watching a kitten batting around feathers.

Anyhow, I can understand where you're coming from ... that would be frustrating watching a group of dipshits try to be the big-brain in the room. That IS annoying.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

When Bob Huggins was asked about Geno and his amazing coaching ability, Huggins said “He’s the world’s tallest midget.” I think that about sums it up.

Bob Huggins is also a dick. I wouldn't lend much credibility to him there. Sexism isn't a great look.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

You know when I first talked about CC I mentioned her court vision and stamina to sustain her pace of play, yet, I completely neglected her shooting range. Nobody has ever seen that in women's basketball at any level.

Face it, the way that Geno and Dawn has won has been to attract the best post players and build around them. There are so many that its not worth mentioning, it is just a rinse and repeat. Sure, both have had some good guard play, but, the guards have been rarely, if ever, the center of the team. CC is such an outlier that neither one of them have any knowledge whatsoever of what do do with her or judge her. For both of them to be so wrong about her impact on the league in her rookie season just goes to show that.

To give credit where credit is due, you have to give Lisa Bluder all the credit in the world for building such a dynamic system around CC's talents. That took a lot of vision and guts really, to allow your guard to have the green light when she crossed half court. I don't think there is any way that CC would be CC if she played at SC or UConn. For that reason and what I said above, I don't give credit to Geno and Dawn for being great coaches with regards to x's and o's, but they are great coaches in the college game to be able to recruit the talent that fits their systems. And on top of that, which I give them even more credit for, is somehow able to keep an entire roster of 5* recruits happy with playing a limited or no role on a team. That is an art.

The thing about Caitlin is that her range spaces the court to the extreme ... that opens up opportunities for her teammates. She also has absurd court-vision ... so when folks come to help ... she finds the open person. Lastly, as you mentioned ... she also pushes the pace of the game to a very fast tempo ... which tires out most players, but her stamina keeps her ahead of the curve. Also, when you have a player who CAN score like she does ... but who also is so content to also dish out assists ... it breeds a culture where her teammates are more willing to put in the extra pass to give a teammate a better look. The analytics add up there ... the more good looks you get ... if you're a shooter ... you're going to knock them down more. More points gives you a chance to win games.

The fun thing about her ... and she's excited about it too ... is that she still has plenty of room to improve too! She can still make better decisions. The WNB-game is still slowing down for her too ... so I expect that we'll see her shooting percentage only continue to rise. Also, she throws some bullets ... as her teammates get more acclimated to grabbing more of her passes ... we'll see some of those turnover numbers go down. Lastly, she can also improve on defense.