Agreed. I imagine it's easier for someone with the knowledge/background of S&C to tailor training to the sport/person/goals as opposed to someone familiar with wrestling trying to learn proper lift technique, endurance, etc.
S&C Coach?
- Thread starter clhawks00
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Agreed. I imagine it's easier for someone with the knowledge/background of S&C to tailor training to the sport/person/goals as opposed to someone familiar with wrestling trying to learn proper lift technique, endurance, etc.
Snatches and cleans are explosive movements. They incorporate power - being able to move heavy weights fast. Yes, there are studies about efficiency of neurons increasing with these, but it is not nearly as drastic as strength increases. Explosion is almost entirely genetic, which is another topic as far as recruiting is concerned. And teaching how to clean or snatch would take a good coach an hour.
Chins should be a staple of every wrestler. It's arguably the most important lift for a wrestler.
You don't need a wrestler, but a S&C coach who understands the physical needs of the sport, to taylor the lifting program. They should have a specific off season, pre-season, and in season program, all mandatory. Need to blend traditional barbell lifts for strength, with things like kettlebell and Bulgarian bag exersizes for strength endurance and grip strength. Body weight exersizes with rings, chin bar, climbing rope also needed for total body strength in wrestling. The body gets stress put on it in odd positions in wrestling, and trying to mimick that with barbells and dumbells is dangerous. Having great core strength is very improtant, and pulling should be emphasized more than pushing, but not to extent of causing muscle imbalance, which leads to shoulder problems. This can get complicated fast, which is why you need a pro, not just an ex wrestler who wants to break into coaching.
For athletes that have a limited amount of time in the weight room, the Olympic lifts might not be the best answer. Or, more accessible variations, like a power clean, can offer the benefits without the obvious drawback of having to spend a great deal of time perfecting an overly technical lift. So, yes, I would stick with more accessible lifts, especially for wrestlers who might be limited in the amount of strength work that they can perform.
On the subject of technique, I would agree never advocate a wrestler snatch poorly--or even be allowed to snatch poorly--on the premise that the change in loading scheme will transfer to a sport where strength in awkward positions is needed. The reasons being: 1.) they'll probably end up getting hurt, as is usually the case when someone performs an exercise incorrectly and 2.) because an exercise done with good technique and performed efficiently allows for a greater training stimulus, because a heavier training load can be used. That means faster development in the same amount of work, or more bang for your buck.
I wouldn't disagree with everything he said, but you're right--reducing injury and minimizing risk has to be a large concern, not just to keep athletes healthy for their sports, but to ensure long-term development. Maximal strength takes longer to develop than any other athletic quality and disruptions in training impede progress. A simple protocol coached well might not be as sexy as a mishmash of sport-specific variation exercises, but it'll yield more consistent results at a lower risk.
Agreed 100%! A good barbell-based program, progressed linearly in the off-season, modified via training volume for possible hypertrophy needs, will work well. As the season approaches, the focus shifts a bit from general to specific movements, but the core of the program remains in place. As wrestlers progress, the progression model changes from linear to non-linear and specificity is trained through an increased focus on strength endurance via timed training and rest-pauses. I only wrestled in high school and I know squat about what it means to use your body as a very good wrestler, but it seems to me that the special qualities that the sport needs are: 1.) hip extension (DUH), 2.) thoracic extension 3.) grip strength 4.) trunk rotation and core training, particularly across the transverse plane 5.) anterior chain, particularly for strength endurance 6.) and pulling.
I have never heard an interview with our wrestling S&C coaches to see what their program/philosiphy is about. Have any of them gone on to pursue a career as an S&C coach? If not, that says somthing. I think all of Doyles young S&C coaches plan on making this their career. Would be a chance for one off the more experienced assistant S&C coaches to run his own program with the wrestling team. They should be motivated to get good results to put on their resume in the hopes to get a head S&C football job, which is where the money is. Wrestling team would be a nice stepping stone for these guys. Unfortunatly, I think they just want another college wrestler who can practice with these guys.
That does sound feasible.
You would certainly think there are X amount of these weight lifting types of the younger generation who would jump at the chance to Coach at a major university, although the dollars probably aren't that large (I have no idea what the high end in this industry is, or for personal trainers at your local fitness center, etc. - not trying to lump them all together - no offense intended). In Hollywood it's probably a GREAT gig.
Anyway, it does sound like a good opportunity for a younger guy who has some knowledge in this area such as young Mr. Keough.
I talked to a couple guys I work with that lift at 22nd street barbell and they both had great things to say about Mr Keough. I agree with Pablow, hire him as a consultant.
A S&C coach for a wrestling program is very different than that of a football etc... What is similar, is building core, (perhaps the most important thing for a wrestler) hips, improving flexibility, and the strengthening of muscles, ligaments, etc to prevent injury, as well as explosiveness etc. A college wrestler projecting to be our 141 pounder is not going to become a power lifter because the increase in mass etc. causes them to bounce up two weight classes....
Another issue is, large muscle mass makes cardio that much harder... feeding oxygen to all that muscle mass becomes a chore. We need a S&C coach, but hiring the next Boyd Epley isn't going to necessarily fix the disappointment caused by falling short of expectations/potential of some individual wrestlers.
Another issue is, large muscle mass makes cardio that much harder... feeding oxygen to all that muscle mass becomes a chore. We need a S&C coach, but hiring the next Boyd Epley isn't going to necessarily fix the disappointment caused by falling short of expectations/potential of some individual wrestlers.
I think Mark Halls dad would be a very good fit for this position. I say we get this done asap
I am 99% certain that Doyle has some input on the workouts, and some of our guys have had programs designed for them from Chris.
You'd be smart to hire Randy Lewis as a consultant for S and C. He had the weight room workout down to a tee, and you never saw him tire in a match while competing as a U of I Hawk. No pacing in weights or running.
You hire a meat-head to run S and C, and you'll get slow-twitchers.
You hire a meat-head to run S and C, and you'll get slow-twitchers.
A good S&C coach could taylor the lifting program to wrestling, even if most of their experience is in football. A goog S&C in football taylors different programs for different positions on the field. Listen to some of Doyles interviews, he makes it clear their strength program isn't one size fits all. Body building routines are what give the huge but less useful muscle mass that fatigues easy. No good S&C would use this type of routine, unless he was trying to bulk you up in off season. I have seen routine that combine the mass building with power and endurance exersize to make the extra muscle usefull. This can get complicated, which is why we need a trained pro. There are certain basic lifts which do benefit any size athlete in any sport. Thses should be at the core of the program, then fine tune the program for the athlete/sport with the assesory lifts. I think assistant S&C coach would be good figure head job for Halls dad!! Sweaty, if you listen to Doyle, his goal is to make everyone faster twitchers, from Oline to recievers. Only way I would want another wrestler as S&C is if he was formally trained, and wanted to make S&C coach his career. Otherwise, just bring Gable back to do it, he's already in the area.
Actually,
Gable would probably enjoy that. Very few of his guys tired back in the day.
But I'm not kidding about Lewis....he ran the Nautilus til ya puked. And I did say he'd be great as a consultant, not necessarily being there day in and day out.
A true S&C Coach search needs to be the priority, not a wrestler who has knowledge of S&C.
Maximizing potential athletes/wrestlers is getting them to max out their strength, quickness, explosiveness during their time in the program. Our team as a whole wears down in the program and doesn't typically look stronger as 5th year seniors--though we've seen exceptions to this. What ever we're doing isn't working compared to other top programs. Technique and heart are huge factors, but if your team is not strong or quick enough to execute the techniques in the 1st or 2nd periods, then they become less important.
Superior strength and quickness gives an athlete confidence, which is a factor as well. A professional S&C Coach will help ensure this is accomplished.
Maximizing potential athletes/wrestlers is getting them to max out their strength, quickness, explosiveness during their time in the program. Our team as a whole wears down in the program and doesn't typically look stronger as 5th year seniors--though we've seen exceptions to this. What ever we're doing isn't working compared to other top programs. Technique and heart are huge factors, but if your team is not strong or quick enough to execute the techniques in the 1st or 2nd periods, then they become less important.
Superior strength and quickness gives an athlete confidence, which is a factor as well. A professional S&C Coach will help ensure this is accomplished.
How have we managed to finish in the top 4 the last how many years? I can't imagine how bad the other S&C coaches must be doing to get beat by our cracker jack training
A powerlifting regiment would be the opposite of what a think wrestling teams are looking for. High weight-low rep workouts do not promote muscle endurance and that's what a wrestler needs. In other words, what good is benching 350 for 1 rep if your body depletes so badly that you can't lift 185 by the third period. Yes, you want to improve strength, however you want guys that can maintain that strength for 7+ minutes and that takes higher reps. I powerlifted in college, actually have a few trophies in my basement, and I can tell you the culture is very anti-cardio anything. The guys I trained with (many with guts) would of rather stuck needles in their eyes then get on a treadmill, lol. As such, powerlifting training programs really don't address the competing interest of intense cardio training, something that is viewed simply as counterproductive and not to be done.
Another negative of a powerlifting regime would be the injury factor. Heavy weight-low rep training definitely leads to more injuries. I have seen guys destroy their backs by putting crazy amounts of weight on the bar for squats. I highly doubt a college coach is going to want his guys doing really heavy low rep workouts due to the injury potential.
Another negative of a powerlifting regime would be the injury factor. Heavy weight-low rep training definitely leads to more injuries. I have seen guys destroy their backs by putting crazy amounts of weight on the bar for squats. I highly doubt a college coach is going to want his guys doing really heavy low rep workouts due to the injury potential.
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Very happy that the message board has no say in this decision.
Are you sure TnT don't check this board before making decisions? I think they probably do... especially when it comes to doling out money
I agree training these wrestlers in a routine meant for competative power lifters/olympic lifters would suck, even for football. That type of training is only good if your sport is weight lifting, or you just like to show off at the gym. Any pro S&C guy should be fired immediatly after rolling that program out. I think some of you guys are confusing S&C coaches with coaches who train only competative weight lifters. There is a program I found last year from the Texans S&C coach that my son used and made huge strides in strength in 2 mo's, and he is tall and lanky. You can use different reps per set depending on the sport, want higher reps for wrestler. The thing that's different about it is the weight gets smaller with each set, so you are giving max effort with each set, with 1 1/2 min rest between sets. He was training for football and wrestling, used 12 reps for squats/deadlifts, 8 reps for upper body. He also uses some kettlebell and sandbags for strength endurance. He had a huge gas tank, which won him many matches after being down early. By the way, you can jog on tredmill all day and it won't give you a good gas tank, but would make you better at cross country.
The thing Olympic lifts promote is not just strength but mobility and functional strength which improves overall athleticism. To properly execute a Power Clean, Squat or Snatch, you have to make explosive, athletic movements - this is applicable to any sport, wrestling included. Cornell is big into Olympic style lifts with proper technique and I think their kids are as athletic and explosive as you'll see up and down the lineup. I'm not saying other movements can't be incorporated, especially movements specific to wrestling, but a foundation of Olympic lifts using good form and technique while tracking results and gains will NEVER cause a decrease in performance on the mat. A kid that routinely squats and cleans will be more athletic, more explosive and have more functional strength than the kid that does not and only does ancillary, body part concentrated movements. Without a doubt.
An experienced, well trained, S&C coach who is worthy of the job would be able to tailor/construct a professional program for each individual wrestler based on the specific needs of that individual.
The point is simple: a true S&C coach would be able to do this without much concern; his program would work for specific wrestling needs and improve both the wrestler's strength and conditioning as it relates to the sport. Monitoring the program that is set by the S&C coach throughout the entire year is an important as telling the the individuals what they need to do in the first place. Trust, but verify. This helps keep everyone on point. A S&C coach would be able to handle this duty and also knows how important this aspect of the job really is.
A great program with no follow up is ripe for failure--regardless of the talent involved.. Brands and Company can help elevate the techniques and perhaps the toughness of the individuals on the team, but this is not the final solution. In my opinion, they need a true, dedicated S&C coach to ensure the recruits on the team are truly ready physically to handle the Brands and Company program.
The point is simple: a true S&C coach would be able to do this without much concern; his program would work for specific wrestling needs and improve both the wrestler's strength and conditioning as it relates to the sport. Monitoring the program that is set by the S&C coach throughout the entire year is an important as telling the the individuals what they need to do in the first place. Trust, but verify. This helps keep everyone on point. A S&C coach would be able to handle this duty and also knows how important this aspect of the job really is.
A great program with no follow up is ripe for failure--regardless of the talent involved.. Brands and Company can help elevate the techniques and perhaps the toughness of the individuals on the team, but this is not the final solution. In my opinion, they need a true, dedicated S&C coach to ensure the recruits on the team are truly ready physically to handle the Brands and Company program.
A wrestler should be hired into the S&C spot. It's a way to get another coach and on campus recruiter. There are limits on coaching positions. There are no limits on non coaching S&C spots. There is nothing stopping Gary Barta/Tom Brands from hiring separate S&C specialists for wrestling. They could hire 10 if they wanted to. So, the S&C coaching position is a S&C position in name only. There may be certain requirements that have to be met, but we can have as many S&C specialists in the athletic department as we want. This is the reason you hire a wrestling coach in this position.
The University of Iowa appears to already have an actual Strength and Conditioning staff. The question is how much does this staff work on developing the wrestling team. In their mission statement is "Work in collaboration with all coaches and support staff members to improve the health and performance of our student-athletes to win BIG TEN and NATIONAL championships."
http://strength.sports.uiowa.edu/
http://strength.sports.uiowa.edu/people/staff
http://strength.sports.uiowa.edu/
http://strength.sports.uiowa.edu/people/staff
This is why they need their own S&C coach. We aren't talking about simply getting bigger faster stronger. The weight cutting component and the need to slot into very specific weights requires more individual attention and monitoring-- IMO>
It appears to make more sense to bring in a coach that can help your program in an area where you are, realitively speaking, the weakest. Do you really need another guy teaching low single legs? Isn't that already pretty well covered?
A bigger question is whether the coaches allow them to be part of the wrestling program.
Interesting thought. Seems like a really good guy, too. I'd be up for this.
If it is Jordan Oliver showing his low single or David Taylor showing his, I would say sure why not.
He sent me an entire S&C program for my club this summer based on our schedule (no Fargo, mostly folkstyle and no cutting) and an in season program he recommends after I gave him a general idea where my team is. Very nice guy
