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School shooting in Michigan

Please explain the gunshow loophole to me.

Also, go to your nearest mall or Walmart, look around, then get back to us and tell us why half the people there should make an income equal to people who've taken the time to develop actual skills.
Not sure he's saying everyone should have equal pay checks. I think he's saying the floor on income needs to be raised so that those at the bottom have more income... more to live for... more at stake. If you live with nothing, have nothing... there's nothing to lose. People with nothing can resort to doing desperate things.
 
Not sure he's saying everyone should have equal pay checks. I think he's saying the floor on income needs to be raised so that those at the bottom have more income... more to live for... more at stake. If you live with nothing, have nothing... there's nothing to lose. People with nothing can resort to doing desperate things.
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What are some practical solutions that can be done without the consternation of all the political muck that comes with school shootings:

A countrywide streamlined process on how to handle problem students who have shown some signs. Seems like most kids who shoot up schools have shown many tell tail signs to others. But they still do it.

Put an extremely high priority on entry choke points with schools. Corporate America has better security protocols to get into call centers and whatnot than a lot of schools.

The federal government could cover the cost of trained security guards for all schools. Seems like a high cost, but a drop in the bucket compared to what they could prevent.
The entry choke point is a nice thought but also completely unrealistic, based solely on how schools have been built for decades. If nothing else, it’s not just doors. Most schools also have large windows on the ground floor that can be easily broken in. Also, unless you’re installing metal detectors in all schools, that’s still not going to prevent guns from getting in the schools.
Considering how much pushback we’ve seen on mask mandates, you really think parents will accept this?
 
Kyrie eleison is more or less my reaction to it. Not a reference to the song.

Honestly there is nothing that could be done to help them right now. We could at least try to prevent this but we won't.

Years ago someone mowed down a dozen elementary aged kids and we did nothing. 4 or 5 dead high school kids in Michigan isn't going to change anyone's mind.
After Sandy Hook, gun violence became accepted in schools in America.
 
Video of the shooter trying to trick a teacher into opening the door. Shooter says "Bro" and students GTFO. Click for the sound.

I believe it actually was a sheriff. This scene really hit home for me as a teacher. Seeing scared students trying to figure out if a sheriff would really say bro and then running.
Honestly there are times i wonder if a student is a potential student shooter. There are a few.
 
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What are some practical solutions that can be done without the consternation of all the political muck that comes with school shootings:

A countrywide streamlined process on how to handle problem students who have shown some signs. Seems like most kids who shoot up schools have shown many tell tail signs to others. But they still do it.

Put an extremely high priority on entry choke points with schools. Corporate America has better security protocols to get into call centers and whatnot than a lot of schools.

The federal government could cover the cost of trained security guards for all schools. Seems like a high cost, but a drop in the bucket compared to what they could prevent.
A nationwide propaganda campaign that attempts to make firearms less cool by showing pictures of grown men wearing camo cargo pants and white new balance sneakers.
 
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From what I understand the timeline goes something like this -

Father buys the kid a gun

Kid is looking up how to purchase ammo from the school computer

Mom tells kid it’s ok to look up how to purchase ammo, just don’t get caught

Parents are called into school and want the kid to remain there

School officials say it’s ok

Kid shoots up the school that afternoon

whole lot of failure to go around there
 
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When there's an artificial floor, people have no incentive to build their skills. Being poor motivated me to not be poor.

Also, I don't argue your point in premise...it's accurate providing there enough opportunities for people and access to them is equal. I've been dirt ass poor, like hosting parties in hopes of finding loose change in the couch poor and now I'm over 6 figures, so I can appreciate the work I've put in.

There has to be balance...the guy collecting my trash physically busts his ass and likely works longer hours. He deserves at least a living wage with money left over to enjoy life with his family.

Now, tell me about that gunshow loophole.
Are you unable to read? And I'm being serious...I explained it.
 
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You're likely missing a whole lot from a timeline that started way before that day. Like years of anger in the house. Someone else always to blame. The actions of that day were set forth by both the kid and his parents long ago. If you think it was that meeting that set the kid off, we'd have a lot more of these. This was something he had likely thought about for some time.
 
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From what I understand the timeline goes something like this -

Father buys the kid a gun

Kid is looking up how to purchase ammo from the school computer

Mom tells kid it’s ok to look up how to purchase ammo, just don’t get caught

Parents are called into school and want the kid to remain there

School officials say it’s ok

Kid shoots up the school that afternoon

whole lot of failure to go around there

Arrest warrant issued for parents

Parents are on the run

Manhunt

Bounty hunters?
 
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I am in 100% agreement that there should be strict civil liability to any firearm owners for any injuries their firearm causes by anyone; even criminal liability should be on the table but that might be tougher sell for someone who had their firearm stolen or taken without their permission to carry out a crime.

Big picture, the other issue is the needle in a haystack analogy. There are 330 million people in the usa and maybe 100-200 of those 330,000,000 people will carry out a mass shooting tradegy at a school or church or mall or wal mart style in their lifetime. The cold truth is it is still extremely unlikely someone will perish in one of these events; from the linked article:

The lifetime risk of dying in a mass shooting is around 1 in 110,154 — about the same chance of dying from a dog attack or legal execution.

This doesn’t mean that I am pro this or that. What can be done that would identify the proverbial needle in a haystack person from carrying out their wishes, firearm or driving a vehicle into a crowd which is becoming a popular way to commit a mass killing?

Perspective is important because throwing an overwhelming amount of money and political capital in attempt to stop mass shootings from happening may not really have any effect at all.

In my opinion, the best way to approach this issue is local: parents, students, teachers, counselors and others have to take a larger role in mitigating the mass shooting risk.

We are the only Western nation with this problem. Stop defending the indefensible bullskit.
 
We are the only Western nation with this problem. Stop defending the indefensible bullskit.
I get it. But the guns are in the country. So now what? No Belem, this isn’t a “throw your hands up, and give up” approach.

it’s a realist approach. We aren’t confiscating everyone guns. What’s a wholistic approach?

better gun buying and registration (national) programs. And a good hard look at what’s wrong with our national mental health. Something is wrong.
 
I give up. We are just loaded with low brow barbarians. They dont vax, so hopefully as many of them will die as possible. In fact, I hope there are variants until every last anti vaxxer/Trumper is taking a dirt nap.
 
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I get it. But the guns are in the country. So now what? No Belem, this isn’t a “throw your hands up, and give up” approach.

it’s a realist approach. We aren’t confiscating everyone guns. What’s a wholistic approach?

better gun buying and registration (national) programs. And a good hard look at what’s wrong with our national mental health. Something is wrong.
Hell yes, something's wrong. 25 years ago there were unlocked, loaded guns all over our house. They were considered tools. No way in hell I would do that in my home today. What changed.
 
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Hell yes, something's wrong. 25 years ago there were unlocked, loaded guns all over our house. They were considered tools. No way in hell I would do that in my home today. What changed.
Many of the kids I went to high school with had racks in the back window of their pickup trucks holding rifles or shotguns. During hunting season, they would sometimes hunt before school. Nobody gave it a second thought. You would see kids showing each other their guns openly next to the trucks In the parking lot. School employees paid it no mind.
I grew up in a home where there were several weapons available, unlocked. Pops, me, or one of my brothers sometimes pulled down the .410 for moccasins who would sun on the concrete entryways. Pops would more often use his long barreled .22 revolver. He never missed the head.

These weapons were inside of many homes, but there was no real fear of strangers or neighbors. This was prior to decades of pushing militarized style pieces in a relentless campaign promoting “safety”. What mindset thinks that a “Cold War“ of mutually assured destruction is appropriate in a modern society?

People are convinced that the answer to violence is more violence. Probably even worse, many think that no alternatives exist.

Now, parents buy a 15 year old a handgun and seemingly are OK with him going to school with it. What could possibly go wrong, right? There will be a % of people defending these actions, often in an indirect, we can’t do anything about it, method.

If McDonalds can be sued for hot coffee….
 
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Many of the kids I went to high school with had racks in the back window of their pickup trucks holding rifles or shotguns. During hunting season, they would sometimes hunt before school. Nobody gave it a second thought. You would see kids showing each other their guns openly next to the trucks In the parking lot. School employees paid it no mind.
I grew up in a home where there were several weapons available, unlocked. Pops, me, or one of my brothers sometimes pulled down the .410 for moccasins who would sun on the concrete entryways. Pops would more often use his long barreled .22 revolver. He never missed the head.

These weapons were inside of many homes, but there was no real fear of strangers or neighbors. This was prior to decades of pushing militarized style pieces in a relentless campaign promoting “safety”. What mindset thinks that a “Cold War“ of mutually assured destruction is appropriate in a modern society?

People are convinced that the answer to violence is more violence. Probably even worse, many think that no alternatives exist.

Now, parents buy a 15 year old a handgun and seemingly are OK with him going to school with it. What could possibly go wrong, right? There will be a % of people defending these actions, often in an indirect, we can’t do anything about it, method.

If McDonalds can be sued for hot coffee….

Level 10 hillbilly. Man that even beats Iowa.
 
Many of the kids I went to high school with had racks in the back window of their pickup trucks holding rifles or shotguns. During hunting season, they would sometimes hunt before school. Nobody gave it a second thought. You would see kids showing each other their guns openly next to the trucks In the parking lot. School employees paid it no mind.
I grew up in a home where there were several weapons available, unlocked. Pops, me, or one of my brothers sometimes pulled down the .410 for moccasins who would sun on the concrete entryways. Pops would more often use his long barreled .22 revolver. He never missed the head.

These weapons were inside of many homes, but there was no real fear of strangers or neighbors. This was prior to decades of pushing militarized style pieces in a relentless campaign promoting “safety”. What mindset thinks that a “Cold War“ of mutually assured destruction is appropriate in a modern society?

People are convinced that the answer to violence is more violence. Probably even worse, many think that no alternatives exist.

Now, parents buy a 15 year old a handgun and seemingly are OK with him going to school with it. What could possibly go wrong, right? There will be a % of people defending these actions, often in an indirect, we can’t do anything about it, method.

If McDonalds can be sued for hot coffee….
We do live in strange times and we're most certainly NOT on the trajectory that would lead us to a Star Trek-like society. The one we're in now is either terrified or pissed off.
 
After Sandy Hook, gun violence became accepted in schools in America.
it shows how little things have changed in the time since then. In Sandy Hook you had a parent purchase a gun for a clearly mentally defective minor.

Only difference is that the SH little nut job whacked his mom too...this kid should have taken better notes.
 
Many of the kids I went to high school with had racks in the back window of their pickup trucks holding rifles or shotguns. During hunting season, they would sometimes hunt before school. Nobody gave it a second thought. You would see kids showing each other their guns openly next to the trucks In the parking lot. School employees paid it no mind.
I grew up in a home where there were several weapons available, unlocked. Pops, me, or one of my brothers sometimes pulled down the .410 for moccasins who would sun on the concrete entryways. Pops would more often use his long barreled .22 revolver. He never missed the head.

These weapons were inside of many homes, but there was no real fear of strangers or neighbors. This was prior to decades of pushing militarized style pieces in a relentless campaign promoting “safety”. What mindset thinks that a “Cold War“ of mutually assured destruction is appropriate in a modern society?

People are convinced that the answer to violence is more violence. Probably even worse, many think that no alternatives exist.

Now, parents buy a 15 year old a handgun and seemingly are OK with him going to school with it. What could possibly go wrong, right? There will be a % of people defending these actions, often in an indirect, we can’t do anything about it, method.

If McDonalds can be sued for hot coffee…
The principals rule was, "If I see a gun in a rack the door better be locked. If it is not locked (and he did periodically check door handles) it is mine."

Shotguns and rifles were plentiful on racks, behind seats, and in car trunks.....and there were no school shootings.

Something else has changed.
 
Something else has changed.
And it's a lot of "something elses" that combined have divided society, and/or made people depressed, angry, sad, lonely, etc., and some act on it.

Just look at some excerpts from my neighborhood FB page. People are lonely and hurting:

Neighbor:
Hello everyone. I just got home after being in the hospital for the last three days. I went on Tuesday morning because I was having shortness of breath. They ran so many tests but today I’m doing a whole lot better. They did a heart cathetertion which came back with a 30% heart blockage. The doctors say that’s not to bad but it’s bad enough for me to start eating healthier and exercising. It’s really has woke me up. I’ve had a HORRIBLE YEAR and this just topped it off. I have to say 2021 has been the worst year of my life. I’m really trying just to hold my head above water. I live here in San Antonio all by myself and really have nobody except my German Shepard, Mr. Banks. I’m 62 years old and I guess I want to tell everybody to listen to your body. Don’t wait and go to the doctor if something’s off. I’m so happy to be alive today.

Neighbor:
Hello everyone. Today is my birthday. I don't really know anyone here, so please wish me a happy birthday. Thank you.
 
After 2020 I think most people see the value of these "unskilled" workers. No one is saying they should earn as much as a doctor, lawyer, ceo, etc., but working 40 hrs a week at any job should provide enough income for food, clothing, and shelter. As the saying goes "the world needs ditch diggers too."
No, people are talking about the "income gap". People are asking for a comfortable standard of living for people with no skills.
 
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And it's a lot of "something elses" that combined have divided society, and/or made people depressed, angry, sad, lonely, etc., and some act on it.

Just look at some excerpts from my neighborhood FB page. People are lonely and hurting:

Neighbor:
Hello everyone. I just got home after being in the hospital for the last three days. I went on Tuesday morning because I was having shortness of breath. They ran so many tests but today I’m doing a whole lot better. They did a heart cathetertion which came back with a 30% heart blockage. The doctors say that’s not to bad but it’s bad enough for me to start eating healthier and exercising. It’s really has woke me up. I’ve had a HORRIBLE YEAR and this just topped it off. I have to say 2021 has been the worst year of my life. I’m really trying just to hold my head above water. I live here in San Antonio all by myself and really have nobody except my German Shepard, Mr. Banks. I’m 62 years old and I guess I want to tell everybody to listen to your body. Don’t wait and go to the doctor if something’s off. I’m so happy to be alive today.

Neighbor:
Hello everyone. Today is my birthday. I don't really know anyone here, so please wish me a happy birthday. Thank you.
It is a sad problem. IMO it was already happening before the political divide and before COVID got everyone practicing separation......but both have really ramped up the speed of the deterioration.
 
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And it's a lot of "something elses" that combined have divided society, and/or made people depressed, angry, sad, lonely, etc., and some act on it.

Just look at some excerpts from my neighborhood FB page. People are lonely and hurting:

Neighbor:
Hello everyone. I just got home after being in the hospital for the last three days. I went on Tuesday morning because I was having shortness of breath. They ran so many tests but today I’m doing a whole lot better. They did a heart cathetertion which came back with a 30% heart blockage. The doctors say that’s not to bad but it’s bad enough for me to start eating healthier and exercising. It’s really has woke me up. I’ve had a HORRIBLE YEAR and this just topped it off. I have to say 2021 has been the worst year of my life. I’m really trying just to hold my head above water. I live here in San Antonio all by myself and really have nobody except my German Shepard, Mr. Banks. I’m 62 years old and I guess I want to tell everybody to listen to your body. Don’t wait and go to the doctor if something’s off. I’m so happy to be alive today.

Neighbor:
Hello everyone. Today is my birthday. I don't really know anyone here, so please wish me a happy birthday. Thank you.
We have mostly an older crowd in my neighborhood and everyone is pretty friendly….talk on the street. The exception being the younger folks.

They pretty much stick to themselves….don’t get involved in community events. I saw that in the apartment complex I lived in previously.

Seems like the younger crowd (generally) is just more interested in their social media and are a little awkward in person to person interactions.

Just generalizing here as there are obviously exceptions
 
From what I understand the timeline goes something like this -

Father buys the kid a gun

Kid is looking up how to purchase ammo from the school computer

Mom tells kid it’s ok to look up how to purchase ammo, just don’t get caught

Parents are called into school and want the kid to remain there

School officials say it’s ok

Kid shoots up the school that afternoon

whole lot of failure to go around there

You're a little mixed up. Buying hte Gun comes after School officials say its OK. That's what makes it manslaughter. He looks up the ammo. Draws scary pictures. They come to the school THEN they buy him the gun
 
We have mostly an older crowd in my neighborhood and everyone is pretty friendly….talk on the street. The exception being the younger folks.

They pretty much stick to themselves….don’t get involved in community events. I saw that in the apartment complex I lived in previously.

Seems like the younger crowd (generally) is just more interested in their social media and are a little awkward in person to person interactions.

Just generalizing here as there are obviously exceptions
Agreed. We had one of those exceptions move in next to us. Young couple, late 20s. She is very friendly....especially with No Pic. The neighbors mother lives away and seldom visits, while we are empty nesters and No Pic misses our daughter.

It has been a win win for both people are getting what they need.
 
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No, people are talking about the "income gap". People are asking for a comfortable standard of living for people with no skills.
Some people aren't capable of skills. Do you think they don't deserve to have a enough money for food, clothing, housing, and a few luxuries(i.e. cable or streaming, money to eat out occasionally, a reliable vehicle, etc.) if they work 40 hours a week? Why should hard working people have to struggle to just survive? It seems like you want to punish them for simply not having the intellect or the resources to get more skills. We need people to do those jobs too.
 
If that's how you view it, but I don't think you can argue that a gun is easier to conceal and use on a group of people vs a car. Now, can a car or truck do damage... of course especially at a parade or in large crowds before or after a concert or sporting event. But a kid with a vendetta is going to find a mission of revenge much easier with a gun than a knife, car or whatever else.
A gun did far more damage to a crowd in Las Vegas than the car in Waukesha.
 
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Cars can be a deadly weapon, but that's not their primary purpose. The purpose of a gun is to kill whether it be an animal or a human. Also cars are limited to outdoor settings, you can't drive a car into a store, a movie theater, a school, etc. to kill a large number of people.
 
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Cars can be a deadly weapon, but that's not their primary purpose. The purpose of a gun is to kill whether it be an animal or a human. Also cars are limited to outdoor settings, you can't drive a car into a store, a movie theater, a school, etc. to kill a large number of people.

Well actually.....you could in certain circumstances
 
Many of the kids I went to high school with had racks in the back window of their pickup trucks holding rifles or shotguns. During hunting season, they would sometimes hunt before school. Nobody gave it a second thought. You would see kids showing each other their guns openly next to the trucks In the parking lot. School employees paid it no mind.
I grew up in a home where there were several weapons available, unlocked. Pops, me, or one of my brothers sometimes pulled down the .410 for moccasins who would sun on the concrete entryways. Pops would more often use his long barreled .22 revolver. He never missed the head.

These weapons were inside of many homes, but there was no real fear of strangers or neighbors. This was prior to decades of pushing militarized style pieces in a relentless campaign promoting “safety”. What mindset thinks that a “Cold War“ of mutually assured destruction is appropriate in a modern society?

People are convinced that the answer to violence is more violence. Probably even worse, many think that no alternatives exist.

Now, parents buy a 15 year old a handgun and seemingly are OK with him going to school with it. What could possibly go wrong, right? There will be a % of people defending these actions, often in an indirect, we can’t do anything about it, method.

If McDonalds can be sued for hot coffee….

So if we compare the 1950s to the 2020 (or the 20 years before), what's different? :)

Do we have more lawyers?
Do we have more / less religion?
More firearms (or less) per capita?
Social media exists, computers exist now.
We do have more portability in population so more people are able to move for work etc (pretty sure I've seen definable evidence of this).
More people portable, less community.
Do people seem more angry these days? How to measure that?
 
Hell yes, something's wrong. 25 years ago there were unlocked, loaded guns all over our house. They were considered tools. No way in hell I would do that in my home today. What changed.
On the morning of Tuesday’s shooting, the suspect’s parents were urgently called to Oxford High School after one of his teachers found an alarming note he had drawn, scrawled with images of a gun, a person who had been shot, a laughing emoji and the words “Blood everywhere” and “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.”

School officials told the parents during the in-person meeting that they were required to seek counseling for their son, Ethan, Ms. McDonald said. The teenager’s parents did not want their son to be removed from school that day



In an earlier time that kid gets committed to an institution for the safety of the society.


Since the deinstitutionalization movement of the 1960s, civil commitment in the United States almost always requires a finding of dangerousness -- both imminent and physical -- as determined by a judge. Most of the rest of the world has more reasonable standards -- you might almost call them "common sense" -- allowing family, friends and even acquaintances to petition for involuntarily commitment, with the final decision made by doctors.

The result of our laissez-faire approach to dangerous psychotics is visible in the swarms of homeless people on our streets, crazy people in our prison populations and the prevalence of mass shootings.

According to a 2002 report by Central Institute of Mental Health for the European Union, the number of involuntarily detained mental patients, per 100,000 people, in other countries looks like this:

  • Austria, 175
  • Finland, 218
  • Germany, 175
  • Sweden, 114
  • England, 93
The absolute maximum number of mental patients per 100,000 people who could possibly be institutionalized by the state in the U.S. -- voluntarily or involuntarily -- is: 17. Yes, according to the Treatment Advocacy Center, there are a grand total of 17 psychiatric beds even available, not necessarily being used. In 1955, there were 340.
 
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On the morning of Tuesday’s shooting, the suspect’s parents were urgently called to Oxford High School after one of his teachers found an alarming note he had drawn, scrawled with images of a gun, a person who had been shot, a laughing emoji and the words “Blood everywhere” and “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.”

School officials told the parents during the in-person meeting that they were required to seek counseling for their son, Ethan, Ms. McDonald said. The teenager’s parents did not want their son to be removed from school that day



In an earlier time that kid gets committed to an institution for the safety of the society.


Since the deinstitutionalization movement of the 1960s, civil commitment in the United States almost always requires a finding of dangerousness -- both imminent and physical -- as determined by a judge. Most of the rest of the world has more reasonable standards -- you might almost call them "common sense" -- allowing family, friends and even acquaintances to petition for involuntarily commitment, with the final decision made by doctors.

The result of our laissez-faire approach to dangerous psychotics is visible in the swarms of homeless people on our streets, crazy people in our prison populations and the prevalence of mass shootings.

According to a 2002 report by Central Institute of Mental Health for the European Union, the number of involuntarily detained mental patients, per 100,000 people, in other countries looks like this:

  • Austria, 175
  • Finland, 218
  • Germany, 175
  • Sweden, 114
  • England, 93
The absolute maximum number of mental patients per 100,000 people who could possibly be institutionalized by the state in the U.S. -- voluntarily or involuntarily -- is: 17. Yes, according to the Treatment Advocacy Center, there are a grand total of 17 psychiatric beds even available, not necessarily being used. In 1955, there were 340.
Welcome to my hell...son of a bipolar/schizophrenia father who cannot get the mental health community to do a damn thing. I literally get hung up on because I get "too emotional" when trying to get doctors and staff to listen to me.

Patients have rights > than safety of others.
 
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