Seeding 184

[MSU158]

Obviously, things will change considerably after the conference championships(especially the B1G). Brooks is a perfect example of someone that could move up a TON if he wins out(have him 8th now, but could see him as high as 2).

Here is my RIGHT NOW look:

Abounader has the inside track to the 2 seed. Problem is he has to win a very strong B1G tournament to do so. But for now he is 18-1 with his only loss being to Dean.

For now:

1.)Dean 25-1---1 bad loss but a bunch of quality wins.
2.)Aboundader 18-1----only loss is to Dean. B1Gs will be huge seeding this weight.
3.)Stauffer 19-2-----Losses to Zavatsky and Avery are not bad and still has a very solid record.
4.)Brown 15-2------Both losses were solid(Dudley and Dean).

From here down B1G's will be very big, but as of now:

5.)McCutcheon 13-2 Win over Dudley is big. Courts is also nice win.
6.)Dudley 16-3 Pin over Brooks looms large.
7.)Miklus 13-3 Zillmer win, domination of Courts and close loss to Dean get him here.
8.)Brooks-18-2 Loss by fall to Dudley hurts, 1-1 with Zillmer but better record gets him here.
9.)Zillmer 25-3 1-1 with Brooks. However, Zavatsky is the only other quality win.
10.)Dechow 12-2-Limited amount of matches and some close wins.
11.)Thomas 23-4--1-1 with Miller. Boyd is his only other real quality win.
12.)Zavatsky 19-5 Has quality wins over Stauffer, Miklus, Avery and Miller.
13.)Miller 24-7 Wins over Zillmer, Boyd, Thomas and Dechow.
14.)Boyd-21-6(1 loss to Burak at 197)-Wins over Miklus and Dean are huge but only real quality wins.
15.)Avery-6-1 Very limited body of work, still not sure who else deserves a rank above him.

16.)Courts 14-7(one loss to DII Lefever) Every loss is to someone ranked above. Has a win by fall over Miller.

 

[wasdt21]

make it round robin

 

[DonHawkeye]

Brooks wins B1G and whoever he has in Nat Duals and he is look top 4 seed.

 

[LaxHawk174]

Good analysis, Brooks really controls his own destiny in terms of seeding. We need him to win B1G's not only to help win the B1G team title, but to set him up for a good seed at NCAAs, preferably a 2-6 seed.

 

[Omahahawk86]

It will be crazy for sure.

What about big ten seeds. I'll take a stab.
1. Abounader 2. Mccutchen 3. Dudley 4. Brooks 5. Courts. 6 Gravina.

I think this works out great for Sammy.

 

[DonHawkeye]

McC lost to ill. He dodged Abounder. He had another bad out of conference loss. He does not deserve to be ahead of Brooks and probably not Dudley.

1) Ab
2) Brooks
3) Dudley
4) McC
5) Koepke
6) Courts

 

[dicemen99]

McC lost to ill. He dodged Abounder. He had another bad out of conference loss. He does not deserve to be ahead of Brooks and probably not Dudley.

1) Ab
2) Brooks
3) Dudley
4) McC
5) Koepke
6) Courts

He "dodged" Abounader????? I guess you took the week off from the internet, when much of the speculation was that he could possibly miss the rest of the season depending on MRI results. Seriously, that's pretty weak, he was on crutches and in a full leg brace the week of the Abounader match. He has the one injury default loss to Koepke. (BTW, the other "bad" loss - which isn't that bad of a loss anyway if you knew the opponent at all who is redshirting - also involved an injury. And it is out of conference - no bearing on seeding). Not saying he deserves to be seeded ahead of Brooks, but he deserves to be seeded ahead of Dudley - AND you can make an argument about it with Brooks, but my guess is that they will be 2/3 anyway so it doesn't matter.

 

[DonHawkeye]

He was losing to ill when he quit, correct?

And he skipped wrestling Ab, who pinned him the last time they wrestled.

And God I hope Brooks and him are 2 and 3.

He knew he snuck one out on Brooks at Big Tens last year and skipped the 3rd place match to try and get a better seed.

 

[dicemen99]

He was losing to ill when he quit, correct?

And he skipped wrestling Ab, who pinned him the last time they wrestled.

And God I hope Brooks and him are 2 and 3.

He knew he snuck one out on Brooks at Big Tens last year and skipped the 3rd place match to try and get a better seed.

I have issue with "skipped" wrestling Ab - or rather your use of "dodged." And then the use of the word "quit." Did you watch the match at all against Illinois? Obviously not. Half your fan base and and most of our's thought he was done for the season. It's not like PSU is coached by Ryan here, or has a history of sitting kids to protect seeds. And that is exactly what you are implying. He was injured - no doubt about it when you watched the match. And returned this week to wrestle Courts - who he had been 0 and 2 against.

You will probably get your wish - I think they will be the 2 and 3 seeds.

 

[Omahahawk86]

Hmmm let's try to keep it civil ladies. This thing can go a lot of different ways

This is what we do know

-Abounader is clear number 1
-it'll be hard to seed Dudley behind mccutchen
-it'll be hard to seed Brooks above Dudley

I think the best thing for Brooks is to be on the opposite side of Dudley. Whether he's 2,3 or 4 I don't really care. I just don't want to see them 2 and 3.

 

[wasdt21]

most of us are tired of our baby lice infection, so if you are looking for reasonable aurguments about penn st wrestlers . I would say your chances are 50/50. sorry dice.

 

[McCulloughd]

I have issue with "skipped" wrestling Ab - or rather your use of "dodged." And then the use of the word "quit." Did you watch the match at all against Illinois? Obviously not. Half your fan base and and most of our's thought he was done for the season. It's not like PSU is coached by Ryan here, or has a history of sitting kids to protect seeds. And that is exactly what you are implying. He was injured - no doubt about it when you watched the match. And returned this week to wrestle Courts - who he had been 0 and 2 against.

You will probably get your wish - I think they will be the 2 and 3 seeds.

Why ask if he "watched the match" when your assuming he didn't? He's not "implying" he's "assuming". So, which word do you have the most issues with? Skipped, Dodged, or, Quit. Life is good.

 

[dicemen99]

Why ask if he "watched the match" when your assuming he didn't? He's not "implying" he's "assuming". So, which word do you have the most issues with? Skipped, Dodged, or, Quit. Life is good.

It's call rhetorical. And, no, I did not misuse the word "implying."

I would have to say "Quit" is the one I have most issues with.

Apologies for ignoring the subtle humor in your post - trying to stay on point here. Life is good.

 

[DonHawkeye]

Yes, I watched the match that McC quit wrestling when he was losing 4-2 to Koepke live. I just re-watched it just to make sure I remember correctly that he was losing when he quit. Yep he was.

Apparently some ranking services take this into account

http://www.win-magazine.com/v2/2016/02/penn-state-extends-lead-in-wins-feb-8-rankings/

Some don't

http://www.flowrestling.org/ranking/457-28-all-heck-breaks-loose/2016-02-08/184

In the ranking explanation for 184 flo cherry picks McC's best wins from last year as a reason he is so high, while ignoring that almost every other guy in the top 11 had the same or better wins last year.

I guess they just ignore McC's losses this year and that he missed the matchup against Ab. If I was a ranking service and you have guys right next to each other and one of them skipped the matched they were suppose to have and was pinned by him the only meeting the year before I think I would go with the guy that pinned him the last time they wrestled.

My guess is that McC will try to make it to the semis and forfeit out at B1G. He will not want to risk getting injured and taking more losses in the hopes that the computerized NCAA seedings might just be as illogical as Flo's 184 rankings right now.

 

[1stplacehawk]

184 is a mess, so I think you could interpret things in a lot of different ways. I've never been high on McC, so I obviously think he is over ranked but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. This stuff will work itself out. Brandon Sorensen not being in the p4p rankings is my biggest gripe

 

[DonHawkeye]

184 is a mess, so I think you could interpret things in a lot of different ways. I've never been high on McC, so I obviously think he is over ranked but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. This stuff will work itself out. Brandon Sorensen not being in the p4p rankings is my biggest gripe

Flo's p4p is absolutely something you shouldn't loss sleep about.

 

[MSU158]

Did a little research(long day in the office) and here is the B1G breakdown, along with likely seeding as a result:

1.)Abounader-Mich-Duals-8-0, 1-0 beating Courts in a tournament. Still has Purdue(Lynde) left on his schedule.
2.)McCutcheon-PSU-Duals-4-1(Injury default loss likely not to hurt as much as a regular one. Dudley win is very big. Still has MSU left.
It gets REALLY messy for the next 3 guys!(Thanks Nick Gravina.....)
3.)Gravina-Rutgers-Duals-5-1(only loss is to Brooks)Huge win over Dudley. Still has Indiana(Irick) and Purdue(Lynde) left.
4.)Dudley-Nebraska-Duals-6-2(loss to Gravina hurts and McCutcheon) 1-0(Snook) in a tournament. Still has Northwestern left.
5.)Brooks-Iowa-Duals-8-1(has a great record but loss by fall to Dudley is a killer).
6.)Courts-OSU-Duals-4-3(losses to Dudley, McCutcheon and Abounader) 3-1 in tournaments(loss to Abounader). Still has Wisconsin left.
7.)Koepke-Illinois- Duals-5-4
8.)Lynde-Purdue-Duals-4-3 0-2 in tournaments

The rest:
Jaron Smith-Maryland-Duals-3-5 0-2 in tournaments
Shadaia-MSU-Duals-2-4 2-1 in tournaments
Christensen-Wisconsin-Duals-1-5 2-1 in tournaments
Durbin-Northwestern-Duals-1-5
Irick-Indiana-Duals-1-4
Pfarr-Minnesota-Duals-0-7

The seeding meeting is going to be REALLY interesting regarding the 2-5 seeds. Would like to be a fly on the wall there!

 

[FineMaterial]

More clarity is on the way: McC / Brown on Friday night. Important on how BIG fits into nationals.

Flo's new rankings have them #3 / #2 this week. Yes, McC passes Abounader.

 

[DonHawkeye]

Did a little research(long day in the office) and here is the B1G breakdown, along with likely seeding as a result:

1.)Abounader-Mich-Duals-8-0, 1-0 beating Courts in a tournament. Still has Purdue(Lynde) left on his schedule.
2.)McCutcheon-PSU-Duals-4-1(Injury default loss likely not to hurt as much as a regular one. Dudley win is very big. Still has MSU left.
It gets REALLY messy for the next 3 guys!(Thanks Nick Gravina.....)
3.)Gravina-Rutgers-Duals-5-1(only loss is to Brooks)Huge win over Dudley. Still has Indiana(Irick) and Purdue(Lynde) left.
4.)Dudley-Nebraska-Duals-6-2(loss to Gravina hurts and McCutcheon) 1-0(Snook) in a tournament. Still has Northwestern left.
5.)Brooks-Iowa-Duals-8-1(has a great record but loss by fall to Dudley is a killer).
6.)Courts-OSU-Duals-4-3(losses to Dudley, McCutcheon and Abounader) 3-1 in tournaments(loss to Abounader). Still has Wisconsin left.
7.)Koepke-Illinois- Duals-5-4
8.)Lynde-Purdue-Duals-4-3 0-2 in tournaments

The rest:
Jaron Smith-Maryland-Duals-3-5 0-2 in tournaments
Shadaia-MSU-Duals-2-4 2-1 in tournaments
Christensen-Wisconsin-Duals-1-5 2-1 in tournaments
Durbin-Northwestern-Duals-1-5
Irick-Indiana-Duals-1-4
Pfarr-Minnesota-Duals-0-7

The seeding meeting is going to be REALLY interesting regarding the 2-5 seeds. Would like to be a fly on the wall there!

I gotta think B1G takes last years B1G placing into account. That will give Brooks edge against McC,Dudley & Gravina. And they will not look at McC loss to Koepke any different than any other loss. Or at least they shouldn't

 

[LutherAce]

i would not be surprised to see Brooks get the 2 seed. He has wrestled a full B1G schedule and is 8-1. AB is undefeated in B1G and will be the 1 seed. Gravina, McC, Dudley in the rest of the order.

Gravina beat Dudley and has 1 loss, to Brooks. Dudley has 2 losses, to Gravina and McC but beat Brooks...however...Dudley should not be ahead of Brooks with 2 losses. Yes, he beat him, but still has 2 losses to Brooks' 1. If Lynde beats Abounader, we aren't to argue that he should be the #1 seed, so that same argument (or lack thereof) apples here. 2 losses is worse than 1 loss.

 

[McCulloughd]

It's call rhetorical. And, no, I did not misuse the word "implying."

I would have to say "Quit" is the one I have most issues with.

Apologies for ignoring the subtle humor in your post - trying to stay on point here. Life is good.

Your forgiven. Just having fun. My inlaws will be arriving in an hour and plan on staying till Friday. That's no fun.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

3. Things.

1. Excellent post and work out of MSU!

2. BIGs will certainly shake up the national scene and the BIG winner will Catapult.

3. Only flaw in MSU's seedings is the NCAA committe seems to weigh good wins at like a 1.5 curve and losses only seem to be like a .75 weight. Meaning re do this seeding based on good wins because they overshadow some losses. So a Zavatasky or Boyd could suprise you come seedings.

Boyd for example will get so much more for his Miklus win than Miklus will ever get for the loss. That loss wont hinder him as much as they should.

IMO, Qaulity wins and lack of matches are the 2 biggest +/- this committe goes on. Quality losses really dont break the resume.

I think Brooks split with Zilmer is more a postivie for both guys than a neutralizer.

All that being said Sammy Brooks controls his own destiny. A lot of quality wins to be had at BIGS. Dont be falling asleep at the end of the 3rd vs McCutchoen again!. Thats the difference between 3/4 to 9 seed

 

[MSU158]

The reason I put Brooks where he is, is he was PINNED and it was VERY recent. As in almost every sport, recent results hold a big part in rankings/seedings. Dudley lost to Gravina at nearly the beginning of the season and had a razor close loss to McCutcheon. I just don't see them seeding Brooks over Dudley. And by that reasoning, they can't seed Dudley over McCutcheon.

I simply don't see one more loss for Dudley making everyone ignore the fact that he pinned Brooks. If Brooks had lost by a close decision, I would agree. However, a pin is very hard to limit value..........................In the end, Gravina messes this whole weight up!

 

[DonHawkeye]

The reason I put Brooks where he is, is he was PINNED and it was VERY recent. As in almost every sport, recent results hold a big part in rankings/seedings. Dudley lost to Gravina at nearly the beginning of the season and had a razor close loss to McCutcheon. I just don't see them seeding Brooks over Dudley. And by that reasoning, they can't seed Dudley over McCutcheon.

I simply don't see one more loss for Dudley making everyone ignore the fact that he pinned Brooks. If Brooks had lost by a close decision, I would agree. However, a pin is very hard to limit value..........................In the end, Gravina messes this whole weight up!

If they give last years B1G tournament any weight Brooks will easily be ahead of Dudley. You are focused to much on that 1 loss. Pin, Injury Default, Major... a loss is a loss. They do not count one more than another. Dudley has 2 losses in Big Ten and placed 6th in this tournament last year.

 

[MSU158]

I have been in a bunch of seeding meetings(obviously NOT the B1G) and I can tell you that a loss by fall holds much more value than a 1 pt decision. Also, head to head matches are ALWAYS the first criteria looked at. Head to head losses can be ignored when there is a big record difference between the two, but it is VERY RARE that one more loss makes a group ignore a win by fall.

I am not 100% certain that Dudley gets seeded over Brooks, but I would be VERY surprised if he wasn't.................

 

[DonHawkeye]

So basically because he was pinned by Dudley he is going to cascade down from 2nd to 5th seed? Even though he placed 3rd in tournament last year and Dudley placed 6th?

I don't see it.

 

[caseyballzz]

Your forgiven. Just having fun. My inlaws will be arriving in an hour and plan on staying till Friday. That's no fun.

I feel your pain, my MIL lives with us. It just sucks! On a different thought, I believe wrestlers should be given credit for wrestling every match in conference. Yes it sucks to be hurt but in the end wrestlers deserve more credit for showing up every night to wrestle. JMO

 

[MSU158]

Don,

Dudley was also an AA last year and Brooks wasn't. I don't think that AA finish or a 3rd vs. 6th at last year's B1G Tournament will hold much sway. Now if Brooks had won it, that may have been enough, but the 1st round loss, albeit to a tough McCutcheon, nixed that.

What they do with Gravina(if he wins out) is what I will be very interested in. He would be 7-1 in conference and possibly 20-6 overall. 2 of those losses are to the redshirting Valencia. The other 4 are to Dean, Brooks, Utley and Renda(all ranked).

 

[DonHawkeye]

Don,

Dudley was also an AA last year and Brooks wasn't. I don't think that AA finish or a 3rd vs. 6th at last year's B1G Tournament will hold much sway. Now if Brooks had won it, that may have been enough, but the 1st round loss, albeit to a tough McCutcheon, nixed that.

What they do with Gravina(if he wins out) is what I will be very interested in. He would be 7-1 in conference and possibly 20-6 overall. 2 of those losses are to the redshirting Valencia. The other 4 are to Dean, Brooks, Utley and Renda(all ranked).

I guess we will find out. It they put McC and Dudley 2/3 I doubt Iowa coaches will put much of a fight up with that. I don't even know if they have seeding meetings with the coaches for this.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

Dudley has placed ahead of Brooks each of the last 2 times they have been in a tournament together. (NCAA/Midlands) plus pinned him in the only meeting this year. I do think Dudley gets seeded ahead of Brooks. I think Brooks can win the whole thing no matter his seed, but results are results. Dudley also wrestled DT much closer than Brooks.

 

[DonHawkeye]

I find it really weird that you are better off losing to low ranked guys than top guys for rankings and seedings purposes. To me when you loss to guys like Koepke or Gravina it is a sign you are much more likely to loss early in tournaments. Other than Boyd last year (and that is looking not that bad of a loss) Brooks hasn't taken a loss like a Koepke or Gravina in a couple years.

McC & Dudley have a slew of these types of losses the last 2 years.

 

[MSU158]

The head to head is the problem Don. Obviously, if they had NOT wrestled each other, but had the same records Brooks would be a no-brainer above Dudley. Losing to Gravina may very well not be ignored either. The hard part is going to be seeding Gravina over Brooks giving his loss to Brooks less value than his win over Dudley. That is why I am really interested in how they work out that seed.

 

[LutherAce]

The only thing that should be used is how they did in the Big Ten match's/season. Common opponents at tournaments or non-conference duals is not a factor.

From a PSU article:
Coach Cael Sanderson said that none of the seeding for Big Tens would become official until Friday night’s coaches meeting.
The rankings for the tournament are based strictly on the coaches’ vote.
“They [The Big Ten] send you each team’s record and each team is responsible for seeding each weight class and they poll them together and add up the points,” Sanderson said of the process.
If any of coaches think there is something wrong with the seeding, they will state their case at the meeting and revote if needed. But in most instances, the seeds are pretty much set and very few changes need to be made prior to the tournament.
There is an unwritten criteria for seeding that the Big Ten coaches normally follow.
Head to head matches in the Big Ten matters the most. Sanderson said that national rankings really do not play a factor in how coaches seed.
The rest of the coaches in the conference can see each other’s ballot. This is done in an attempt to prevent anyone from voting their entire team No. 1 seeds.
But although the voting is normally done fairly, the criteria is sometimes distorted by coaches trying to gain an advantage.

From a rather nice post on TheMat:

B1G Seeding

1. Seeds are based strictly on the coaches’ vote.
2. The B1G sends each coach every conference team's record so coaches can use that information to submit their rankings. Every coach gets to submit a ballot.
3. Every coach gets to see every submitted ballot. This prevents foul play, e.g. someone seeding their entire line-up #1 at each weight.
4. In the seeding meeting days before the tournament, any coach with a gripe gets to make his case. A re-voting can then ensue if the gripe has enough merit (though this is rarely done).
5. National rankings of any kind are not supposed to be factor. Rather B1G conference records are the key criteria.

 

[MSU158]

Don,

There is sort of a hybrid coach's meeting. The pre-seeds are voted on by the coaches, similar to the Coaches' rankings. So instead of a full out meeting they will go over a few of the pre-seeds that someone may strongly agree with. However, for the most part, the pre-seeds seem to hold out..................

 

[MSU158]

Thanks, Luther! You gave a much more descriptive version!

 

[DonHawkeye]

So what Brooks has this going for him.
- Dudley has 2 B1G losses.
- McC has a loss and will not get as many wins as Gravina or Brooks
- He has a head to head win over Gravina

So could easily see it go
1) Ab
2) Brooks
3) Gravina
4) McC
5) Dudley

If you use B1G record combined with head to head this makes the most sense.

 

[MSU158]

Don,

I love your dedication! Still I am not sure this highlighted point backs your argument: Head to head matches in the Big Ten matters the most. Sanderson said that national rankings really do not play a factor in how coaches seed.

Gravina may have mucked this weight up a bit, but I don't think he helps Brooks more than getting pinned by Dudley hurts him!

 

[DonHawkeye]

You are ignoring the head to head losses Dudley has to guys that really have no business being ahead of Brooks.

So he has 2 head to head losses and Brooks has 1.

Really Dudley is the one that should be worried about head to head losses. For Dudley's Head to Head win over Brooks to even matter he would have to jump over 2 guys with 1 loss and head to head wins against him.

 

[DonHawkeye]

1) Wrestler A 9-0
2) Wrestler B 8-1
3) Wrestler C 7-1 (loss to Wrestler B)
4) Wrestler D 5-1
5) Wrestler E 7-2 (loss to Wrestler D & C)

Look at the records and head to heads. If this was to figure out the placements in a conference team title it would be an absolute no brainier. To me this is one of the easier weights to seed.

 

[MSU158]

Don,

You may be the best fan at convincing himself I have ever seen! For the record, I would love to see Brooks get the highest seed possible. Still, you are continuing to find a way to ignore Brooks' very UGLY loss while giving MAXIMUM value to the VERY CLOSE losses for Dudley.

I hope you are right!